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hatari Offline OP
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Who watched the 30 for 30 on the 1998 home run race? Good show, and the only baseball we'll likely see. People for get about Ken Griffey, Jr. that year. Jr. was an unreal talent,but was overshadowed by the other two that year, and Bonds later.

Another thing they never discussed was that after 1996, MLB and umpires squeezed the strike zone. Too much criticism of Glavine and Maddux getting calls 2"-3"-4" off the plate, so pitchers had to throw it over the plate and these guys were ready to ambush.

Then there is the juice ball thing. The MLB right now has lower seams. Less movement on pitches, curveball and slider don't bite as hard, sinker sinks less. Easier to hit. Lower seams = lefss drag so the ball goes an extra 5% that's 15-20' and the difference between warning track and 20 rows back.

The steroid era will always be controversial. People also forget that one of the major sticking points that led to the 1994 strike was over testing. The owners wanted it, and the MLBPA didn't. The eventual compromise was no testing for the length of that agreement, which was 10 years. Without testing, there was no enforcement and no penalty. Supposedly there was an anonymous test in 2003 that had over 100 out of 700 players testing positive. Throw in the ones that had stopped by 2003, or just had it cleaned out of their systems, and you can bet 1/4 of the players were using PEDs at one time or another.

Was it cheating? There is no substance that you can put in a syringe and stick in your butt to make you hit home runs. If there was, Schwarzenegger would have hit 100 in a season. McGuire hit 49 his rookie year without PEDs. Did they help? I'm sure they did.

Should they be in the HOF along with Bonds and Clements (Not bringing up Rose here)? I say yes. It was what it was.

Article on the show:

Quote
Scandal, shame and the roller coaster ride that followed Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa's magical summer
Mike Oz,Yahoo Sports•June 14, 2020
’Long Gone Summer: How McGwire, Sosa captivated the country


It made sense that Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa’s lives would never be the same after toppling Major League Baseball’s famous single-season home-run record in 1998. But instead of becoming icons, they became two of the polarizing faces of baseball’s steroid era.

They were on top of the world for a short time, but what quickly followed for each was public turmoil, scandal, steroid accusations and one confession. Gone was the magic of the summer of ‘98 and what it took it place was one of MLB’s long-lasting shames — how fans couldn’t believe what they were seeing with their own eyes.

Sosa has still never admitted he used performance-enhancing drugs. That’s part of the reason his relationship with the Cubs has soured. McGwire eventually admitted he used PEDs, and was brought back into MLB as a coach. But neither slugger gets the ambassador treatment from MLB or their former teams.

With ESPN set to debut “Long Gone Summer,” its 30-for-30 documentary on the home run chase of 1998, on Sunday night, here’s a look at the roller coaster ride that followed McGwire and Sosa surpassing 61 homers in a single season and how two larger-than-life sluggers became two of MLB’s most disgraced stars.

Sept. 8, 1998: McGwire hits home run No. 62 against the Cubs and pitcher Steve Trachsel. McGwire finishes the season with 70 homers total.


Sept. 13, 1998: Sosa hits home runs No. 61 and 62 against the Brewers, passing Roger Maris’ record as well. Sosa eventually finishes the season with 66 home runs.

Nov. 19, 1998: Sosa is crowned NL MVP, getting all but two of the first-place votes. Those went to McGwire. While McGwire won the home run race, Sosa led the league with 158 RBIs and helped the Cubs into the postseason. McGwire and Sosa would eventually be named Co-Sportsmen of the Year by Sports Illustrated.

1999 season: While it wasn’t the same thrilling race and doesn’t earn the same amount of nostalgia today, both McGwire and Sosa exceed 61 home runs in the following season. Sosa hits 63 in 1999 while McGwire hits 65.

2000 season: While McGwire, 36, starts to show his age, Sosa continues on a home-run tear that history seems to have largely forgotten about. He hit another 50 home runs in 2000, then 64 in 2001 and 49 in 2002.

2001 season: McGwire and Sosa’s run at history doesn’t prove to last that long. Barry Bonds slugs 73 homers during the 2001 season to break McGwire’s record and set a home-run mark that hasn’t been passed since.

Nov. 11, 2001: Saying that he’s “worn out,” McGwire retires from MLB after hitting .189 with 29 homers. He was 38.

June 3, 2003: Sosa is ejected from a game after an umpire discovers he’s using a corked bat. Sosa says he accidentally used a corked batting practice bat. None of his other bats are found to have corks, but he is still suspended eight games by MLB.


Oct. 3, 2004: Sosa’s tenure with the Cubs ends in controversy. After a disappointing season, he requests to sit out the final game of the season and leaves early. Years later, he says he had permission from manager Dusty Baker to leave early, but it is the beginning of a feud with the Cubs that still hasn’t been resolved.

Feb. 2, 2005: Sosa is traded to the Orioles and plays one season in Baltimore. He only hit 14 homers. He walks away from the game after that season but doesn’t retire.

Feb. 21, 2005: Jose Canseco releases his book, “Juiced,” in which he gives his personal account of steroid use in Major League Baseball. In the book, Canseco says he introduced McGwire to steroids and they injected each other.

March 17, 2005: McGwire and Sosa are summoned to testify before the House Government Reform Committee about the use of steroids in baseball. In total, 11 players testify. Sosa denies using steroids and McGwire tip-toes around the issue. He says: “My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family and myself.”

June 20, 2007: Sosa, who returned to MLB for the 2007 season after not playing in 2006, hits his 600th home run for the Texas Rangers. He clubs a total of 21 homers that season at 38 years old, finishing his career with 609 homers.


Dec. 13, 2007: The Mitchell Report is released — a year-long investigation into steroid use in baseball by former prosecutor and politician George Mitchell. While McGwire and Sosa aren’t the main headline out of The Mitchell Report like Bonds and Roger Clemens are, this still represents a pivotal moment in the public reveal of baseball’s steroid era.

June 3, 2009: Sosa officially retires from MLB, after not playing in 2008 and 2009.

June 16, 2009: The New York Times reports that Sosa is one of 104 players who tested positive for steroids in a 2003 anonymous survey of MLB players, the results of which were under a court seal. At the time there was no penalty for a positive test in MLB.

Oct. 26, 2009: McGwire is hired by the Cardinals to be their hitting coach.

Jan. 11, 2010: McGwire publicly admits to his steroid use for the first time. He says he used them for a decade, including during the 1998 home run chase. McGwire maintains that he used steroids for health purposes and not to build strength. His statement at the time said:

“I used steroids during my playing career and I apologize. I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989/1990 off season and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again. I used them on occasion throughout the nineties, including during the 1998 season. I wish I had never touched steroids. It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era.
“I'm sure people will wonder if I could have hit all those home runs had I never taken steroids. I had good years when I didn't take any and I had bad years when I didn't take any. I had good years when I took steroids and I had bad years when I took steroids. But no matter what, I shouldn't have done it and for that I'm truly sorry. Baseball is really different now -- it's been cleaned up. The Commissioner and the Players Association implemented testing and they cracked down, and I'm glad they did.”
Nov. 7, 2012: McGwire is hired as the Dodgers’ hitting coach, a position he would serve in for the next three seasons.

Dec. 2, 2015: McGwire joins the San Diego Padres as their bench coach, essentially the second in command next to manager Andy Green.

Nov. 2, 2016: The Cubs finally win a World Series. It’s a grand occasion for anyone close to the Cubs, but Sosa, one of the organization’s biggest stars, doesn’t make an appearance during the World Series or in its aftermath. It shines a light on the quiet feud that’s been carrying on between the Cubs and Sosa since the end of his time in Chicago.

Jan. 18, 2017: McGwire misses election to Cooperstown on his most recent ballot. He’s part of the Today’s Game Era Committee ballot and earns less than five votes from the 16-member panel. Twelve votes are needed for election.

Jan. 13, 2018: Cubs owner Tom Ricketts, is asked about whether Sosa will be welcomed back by the Cubs anytime soon — almost an annual event at this point. He doesn’t mention Sosa by name but says this about players from the PED era:

“I also believe that players from that era owe us a little bit of honesty, and I kind of feel like the only way to turn this page is to put everything on the table.”
May 2, 2018: Sosa says he would like to return to Wrigley and made amends with the Cubs, but says he’s “at peace” if it doesn’t happen. He says: “If one day I come back to Chicago, I'd come back for the fans. I owe those people something."

May 2, 2018: In that same interview with NBC Sports, Sosa also addresses his skin tone, which has become a hot topic on the internet. Sosa had been spotted in recent years with much lighter skin than his playing day.


Sosa previously said he used a skin cream that bleached his skin. But in this interview, he also says this to the people who made memes and jokes online about him:

“Those people, they sometimes criticize me, they don't know me, they don't put food on my table and they don't pay my bills.”
Oct 24, 2018: McGwire steps down as Padres bench coach, saying he wants to spend more time with his family.

Jan. 21, 2020
: Sosa earns 13.9 percent of the vote during the most recent BBWAA Hall of Fame election. He remains a long way away from the 75 percent needed for Cooperstown


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Originally Posted by hatari
Who watched the 30 for 30 on the 1998 home run race? Good show, and the only baseball we'll likely see. People for get about Ken Griffey, Jr. that year. Jr. was an unreal talent,but was overshadowed by the other two that year, and Bonds later.

Another thing they never discussed was that after 1996, MLB and umpires squeezed the strike zone. Too much criticism of Glavine and Maddux getting calls 2"-3"-4" off the plate, so pitchers had to throw it over the plate and these guys were ready to ambush.

Then there is the juice ball thing. The MLB right now has lower seams. Less movement on pitches, curveball and slider don't bite as hard, sinker sinks less. Easier to hit. Lower seams = lefss drag so the ball goes an extra 5% that's 15-20' and the difference between warning track and 20 rows back.

The steroid era will always be controversial. People also forget that one of the major sticking points that led to the 1994 strike was over testing. The owners wanted it, and the MLBPA didn't. The eventual compromise was no testing for the length of that agreement, which was 10 years. Without testing, there was no enforcement and no penalty. Supposedly there was an anonymous test in 2003 that had over 100 out of 700 players testing positive. Throw in the ones that had stopped by 2003, or just had it cleaned out of their systems, and you can bet 1/4 of the players were using PEDs at one time or another.

Was it cheating? There is no substance that you can put in a syringe and stick in your butt to make you hit home runs. If there was, Schwarzenegger would have hit 100 in a season. McGuire hit 49 his rookie year without PEDs. Did they help? I'm sure they did.

Should they be in the HOF along with Bonds and Clements (Not bringing up Rose here)? I say yes. It was what it was.

Article on the show:

Quote
Scandal, shame and the roller coaster ride that followed Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa's magical summer
Mike Oz,Yahoo Sports•June 14, 2020
’Long Gone Summer: How McGwire, Sosa captivated the country


It made sense that Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa’s lives would never be the same after toppling Major League Baseball’s famous single-season home-run record in 1998. But instead of becoming icons, they became two of the polarizing faces of baseball’s steroid era.

They were on top of the world for a short time, but what quickly followed for each was public turmoil, scandal, steroid accusations and one confession. Gone was the magic of the summer of ‘98 and what it took it place was one of MLB’s long-lasting shames — how fans couldn’t believe what they were seeing with their own eyes.

Sosa has still never admitted he used performance-enhancing drugs. That’s part of the reason his relationship with the Cubs has soured. McGwire eventually admitted he used PEDs, and was brought back into MLB as a coach. But neither slugger gets the ambassador treatment from MLB or their former teams.

With ESPN set to debut “Long Gone Summer,” its 30-for-30 documentary on the home run chase of 1998, on Sunday night, here’s a look at the roller coaster ride that followed McGwire and Sosa surpassing 61 homers in a single season and how two larger-than-life sluggers became two of MLB’s most disgraced stars.

Sept. 8, 1998: McGwire hits home run No. 62 against the Cubs and pitcher Steve Trachsel. McGwire finishes the season with 70 homers total.


Sept. 13, 1998: Sosa hits home runs No. 61 and 62 against the Brewers, passing Roger Maris’ record as well. Sosa eventually finishes the season with 66 home runs.

Nov. 19, 1998: Sosa is crowned NL MVP, getting all but two of the first-place votes. Those went to McGwire. While McGwire won the home run race, Sosa led the league with 158 RBIs and helped the Cubs into the postseason. McGwire and Sosa would eventually be named Co-Sportsmen of the Year by Sports Illustrated.

1999 season: While it wasn’t the same thrilling race and doesn’t earn the same amount of nostalgia today, both McGwire and Sosa exceed 61 home runs in the following season. Sosa hits 63 in 1999 while McGwire hits 65.

2000 season: While McGwire, 36, starts to show his age, Sosa continues on a home-run tear that history seems to have largely forgotten about. He hit another 50 home runs in 2000, then 64 in 2001 and 49 in 2002.

2001 season: McGwire and Sosa’s run at history doesn’t prove to last that long. Barry Bonds slugs 73 homers during the 2001 season to break McGwire’s record and set a home-run mark that hasn’t been passed since.

Nov. 11, 2001: Saying that he’s “worn out,” McGwire retires from MLB after hitting .189 with 29 homers. He was 38.

June 3, 2003: Sosa is ejected from a game after an umpire discovers he’s using a corked bat. Sosa says he accidentally used a corked batting practice bat. None of his other bats are found to have corks, but he is still suspended eight games by MLB.


Oct. 3, 2004: Sosa’s tenure with the Cubs ends in controversy. After a disappointing season, he requests to sit out the final game of the season and leaves early. Years later, he says he had permission from manager Dusty Baker to leave early, but it is the beginning of a feud with the Cubs that still hasn’t been resolved.

Feb. 2, 2005: Sosa is traded to the Orioles and plays one season in Baltimore. He only hit 14 homers. He walks away from the game after that season but doesn’t retire.

Feb. 21, 2005: Jose Canseco releases his book, “Juiced,” in which he gives his personal account of steroid use in Major League Baseball. In the book, Canseco says he introduced McGwire to steroids and they injected each other.

March 17, 2005: McGwire and Sosa are summoned to testify before the House Government Reform Committee about the use of steroids in baseball. In total, 11 players testify. Sosa denies using steroids and McGwire tip-toes around the issue. He says: “My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family and myself.”

June 20, 2007: Sosa, who returned to MLB for the 2007 season after not playing in 2006, hits his 600th home run for the Texas Rangers. He clubs a total of 21 homers that season at 38 years old, finishing his career with 609 homers.


Dec. 13, 2007: The Mitchell Report is released — a year-long investigation into steroid use in baseball by former prosecutor and politician George Mitchell. While McGwire and Sosa aren’t the main headline out of The Mitchell Report like Bonds and Roger Clemens are, this still represents a pivotal moment in the public reveal of baseball’s steroid era.

June 3, 2009: Sosa officially retires from MLB, after not playing in 2008 and 2009.

June 16, 2009: The New York Times reports that Sosa is one of 104 players who tested positive for steroids in a 2003 anonymous survey of MLB players, the results of which were under a court seal. At the time there was no penalty for a positive test in MLB.

Oct. 26, 2009: McGwire is hired by the Cardinals to be their hitting coach.

Jan. 11, 2010: McGwire publicly admits to his steroid use for the first time. He says he used them for a decade, including during the 1998 home run chase. McGwire maintains that he used steroids for health purposes and not to build strength. His statement at the time said:

“I used steroids during my playing career and I apologize. I remember trying steroids very briefly in the 1989/1990 off season and then after I was injured in 1993, I used steroids again. I used them on occasion throughout the nineties, including during the 1998 season. I wish I had never touched steroids. It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era.
“I'm sure people will wonder if I could have hit all those home runs had I never taken steroids. I had good years when I didn't take any and I had bad years when I didn't take any. I had good years when I took steroids and I had bad years when I took steroids. But no matter what, I shouldn't have done it and for that I'm truly sorry. Baseball is really different now -- it's been cleaned up. The Commissioner and the Players Association implemented testing and they cracked down, and I'm glad they did.”
Nov. 7, 2012: McGwire is hired as the Dodgers’ hitting coach, a position he would serve in for the next three seasons.

Dec. 2, 2015: McGwire joins the San Diego Padres as their bench coach, essentially the second in command next to manager Andy Green.

Nov. 2, 2016: The Cubs finally win a World Series. It’s a grand occasion for anyone close to the Cubs, but Sosa, one of the organization’s biggest stars, doesn’t make an appearance during the World Series or in its aftermath. It shines a light on the quiet feud that’s been carrying on between the Cubs and Sosa since the end of his time in Chicago.

Jan. 18, 2017: McGwire misses election to Cooperstown on his most recent ballot. He’s part of the Today’s Game Era Committee ballot and earns less than five votes from the 16-member panel. Twelve votes are needed for election.

Jan. 13, 2018: Cubs owner Tom Ricketts, is asked about whether Sosa will be welcomed back by the Cubs anytime soon — almost an annual event at this point. He doesn’t mention Sosa by name but says this about players from the PED era:

“I also believe that players from that era owe us a little bit of honesty, and I kind of feel like the only way to turn this page is to put everything on the table.”
May 2, 2018: Sosa says he would like to return to Wrigley and made amends with the Cubs, but says he’s “at peace” if it doesn’t happen. He says: “If one day I come back to Chicago, I'd come back for the fans. I owe those people something."

May 2, 2018: In that same interview with NBC Sports, Sosa also addresses his skin tone, which has become a hot topic on the internet. Sosa had been spotted in recent years with much lighter skin than his playing day.


Sosa previously said he used a skin cream that bleached his skin. But in this interview, he also says this to the people who made memes and jokes online about him:

“Those people, they sometimes criticize me, they don't know me, they don't put food on my table and they don't pay my bills.”
Oct 24, 2018: McGwire steps down as Padres bench coach, saying he wants to spend more time with his family.

Jan. 21, 2020
: Sosa earns 13.9 percent of the vote during the most recent BBWAA Hall of Fame election. He remains a long way away from the 75 percent needed for Cooperstown

That's what happens when there is no policing. Startling, isn't it?

I haven't seen the 30 for 30 show, so thanks for the recap.


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I saw that show and enjoyed it alot. I did have a little bias though, as I had played against McGwire back in rookie ball and he wa a jackass. Later met Sosa because he and Pudge were going to invest money in the oil/energy game here in Midland several years ago. Pudge is a great guy, Sosa was a blast to be around....very funny guy. I had no use for Bonds or Clemens either, but they were obviously talented and elite players even without juicing.

I think the owners knew about the juicing personally, and didn't give a crap what the players were doing as long as they showed up ready to play the next day. Let's face it, fans wanted to see baseballs flying out of the park, not a 1-0 pitchers dual. More runs puts butts in the seats. If you remember that's the biggest reason why they "shortened the porches" on many of the stadium renovations.

I'm sure we all remember when Canseco's book came out as well, and he was crucified for it. Turned out he was right, big time, which I knew he would be. I agree Jeff that HGH's, etc doesn't make one hit home runs, etc, What I was told it did do for you was shorten the recuperation times from injury, fatigue, muscle soreness, etc.


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The kid had the sweetest swing imho......

I watched him play a couple of times at the kingdome.....

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I love ESPN's 30 for 30's. Despite that networks left leaning stupidity most times, their work on these documentaries is impressive. Especially in 2020.

I can't say I've ever cared about steroid use especially in a sport like baseball. I see it as keeping themselves in top flight condition during their prime and not much else. It's not as though you can juice up and start batting .500 in the MLB.


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It makes those who are already very good even better.. wouldn't help average player as much. Would make him above average is all.


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Took a major league umpire quail hunting a few times down here. He called many games behind the plate that Glavine and Maddox pitched in. He told me that all pitchers would test the corners to see how close they could get before it’s called a strike. Captain Obvious here, I know. But he said Maddox, and sometimes Glavine, were the only two pitchers he ever saw that could consistently bring their pitch in a quarter inch at a time until it hit Mark’s strike zone that day. After that it was bang bang bang...every pitch to that spot, relatively speaking.

Had a personal friend of mine that pitched for the Cardinals and another that was first base for the Indians during that era. Both told me the same thing: 80% of the payers were juiced back then, adding that if that figure was incorrect, it was 90%.

Last edited by Godogs57; 06/15/20.

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I would believe that Godogs. When your fastball tops out at 87-88mph you learn how to pitch. Pitching is a whole lot different than throwing. Hey Jeff, ROGER CRAIG alert....he always said when a guy can master three different pitches, at different speeds, throwing them for a strike most any time he wants to regardless of count, that guy will win a lot of games in the big leagues. He's sure right about that.


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I miss Glavine and Maddox...that was a great era of top shelf pitching. Must see tv...like when the Tigers had Verlander, Schurzer, Porcello, etc...

Man i miss baseball


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Originally Posted by Godogs57
Took a major league umpire quail hunting a few times down here. He called many games behind the plate that Glavine and Maddox pitched in. He told me that all pitchers would test the corners to see how close they could get before it’s called a strike. Captain Obvious here, I know. But he said Maddox, and sometimes Glavine, were the only two pitchers he ever saw that could consistently bring their pitch in a quarter inch at a time until it hit Mark’s strike zone that day. After that it was bang bang bang...every pitch to that spot, relatively speaking.

Had a personal friend of mine that pitched for the Cardinals and another that was first base for the Indians during that era. Both told me the same thing: 80% of the payers were juiced back then, adding that if that figure was incorrect, it was 90%.



Let me guess

Hirschbeck and Lilliquist??


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No they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. They cheated, let them ride off into the sunset on a bicycle with Lance Armstrong.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider
I would believe that Godogs. When your fastball tops out at 87-88mph you learn how to pitch. Pitching is a whole lot different than throwing. Hey Jeff, ROGER CRAIG alert....he always said when a guy can master three different pitches, at different speeds, throwing them for a strike most any time he wants to regardless of count, that guy will win a lot of games in the big leagues. He's sure right about that.


That's what I taught my kids.


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Did Gaylord Perry cheat? Put all the cheaters in the cheaters wing. Funny to me Biggio gets in but Bagwell...nopes.


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They will never get in. Baseball writers will never forget the drug scandal.

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Originally Posted by simonkenton7
No they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. They cheated, let them ride off into the sunset on a bicycle with Lance Armstrong.
lol

Lance Armstrong wasn’t some rogue cheater in a pristine sport. Everyone in cycling at the time was pumped full of PEDs and EPO. And he ‘still’ beat em’ all and won seven Tour de France titles.


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Originally Posted by GeoW
It makes those who are already very good even better.. wouldn't help average player as much. Would make him above average is all.


I think this pretty much captures my thoughts. I used to be a big baseball fan starting about 1960 when Mantle and Maris were battling and Maris hit 61.
All the labor bs and drugs have greatly reduced my interest in baseball.


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30 for 30.

Did a show in a semi local guy. Marcus Dupree

“The greatest that never was “ or something like that.

Think he has a used car lot or something now.


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
I would believe that Godogs. When your fastball tops out at 87-88mph you learn how to pitch. Pitching is a whole lot different than throwing. Hey Jeff, ROGER CRAIG alert....he always said when a guy can master three different pitches, at different speeds, throwing them for a strike most any time he wants to regardless of count, that guy will win a lot of games in the big leagues. He's sure right about that.


JGR, you are in a better position than most to make that statement. But am I correct in saying that you will never see the inside of a big league clubhouse unless you can first throw at least 5 mph faster than that? My impression is that unless you can throw 93+ to begin with, you'll never wear a uniform long enough to learn to truly pitch.


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There's no substitute for velocity that's for sure. Saying used to be "we can teach a guy who throws 95mph to throw sliders and changeups, but we can't teach a guy who throws 85mph to throw 95mph. I'd have to say anymore that you're correct.

One thing that baffles me to this day.....how can everybody throw 95-100mph today, when 30 years ago a guy who threw 92mph was considered a hard thrower? Only thing I can think of is that back in earlier days, the radar gun picked up the ball a few feet after the pitcher let go of the ball, maybe almost half way to home plate. Today I believe it picks up the ball right out of the pitcher's hand. Big difference.


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,516
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 19,516
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
No they shouldn't be in the hall of fame. They cheated, let them ride off into the sunset on a bicycle with Lance Armstrong.
lol

Lance Armstrong wasn’t some rogue cheater in a pristine sport. Everyone in cycling at the time was pumped full of PEDs and EPO. And he ‘still’ beat em’ all and won seven Tour de France titles.



How is pedal biking even a sport?


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