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Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... #14998365 06/25/20
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Jim in Idaho Offline OP
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... in a tight place.

Have to torque a nut to 47 ft/lbs or thereabouts which cannot be reached by a standard socket because there is only about 5/8" between the end of the bolt and an obstacle which cannot be moved, you have to come in from the side with an open end wrench or at best come over the top with the box end. I see these socket wrench adapters for a 3/8" drive which would give enough room to come in below or above the obstacle but with this offset mounting it looks like you wouldn't get a true reading since it looks like the torque you'd apply is basically just trying to round out the drive hole.

So, would something like this work or is there another tool I don't know about that could do this job. AFAIK there is no such thing as an open end torque wrench or at least Amazon doesn't show one, just these adapters. The other option is an open/box end wrench and a cheater bar with a "TFAR" (that feels about right) measurement.

This setup would come in below the obstacle, you just can't come in straight over the top of the nut given the thickness of a ratchet drive and socket combined.

[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]

Something like these would at least be better since they'd grab the nut on more than just two sides.

[Linked Image from images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com]



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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998401 06/25/20
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Those are perfectly acceptable and normal for getting a tq wrench on a nut when you cannot use a socket. Care must be taken (if you care about accurate torque) to keep the open end of the wrench at a 90 degree angle to the head of a torque wrench, If it is at 0 degrees, as in the top picture, you are increasing the moment arm of the wrench. If it is at 180 degrees, you are decreasing the moment arm (see how the open part of the wrench is forward of the pivot ie:extension?)

Sets like these (except by snap-on) is what I used when turning wrenches on aircraft... https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Proto-J5100-Torque-Adapter/dp/B001HWEAAG

Last edited by LoadClear; 06/25/20.

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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998402 06/25/20
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We always called those crow foot sockets. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to adjust torque for the small amount of offset.

Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998413 06/25/20
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Depending what the nut was doing....I would figure out a way to guess the approximate torque of 47ft lbs and just use an appropriate wrench, 47 ft lbs isn't that much imo.

Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: LoadClear] #14998445 06/25/20
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Jim in Idaho Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LoadClear
Those are perfectly acceptable and normal for getting a tq wrench on a nut when you cannot use a socket. Care must be taken (if you care about accurate torque) to keep the open end of the wrench at a 90 degree angle to the head of a torque wrench, If it is at 0 degrees, as in the top picture, you are increasing the moment arm of the wrench. If it is at 180 degrees, you are decreasing the moment arm (see how the open part of the wrench is forward of the pivot ie:extension?)

Sets like these (except by snap-on) is what I used when turning wrenches on aircraft... https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Proto-J5100-Torque-Adapter/dp/B001HWEAAG

Thanks. Those Stanley adapters are like the crow foot ones but basically act as a box end so it would apply pressure more uniformly around the nut. In addition to being tight and hard to reach, the nut isn't particularly hard. I used my largest adjustable wrench which only touches two sides to start to loosen it and the leading edges where the force was applied started to deform slightly.

I'm thinking that 47 ft/lbs is not critical but a reasonable or suggested amount of tightness, the nut and bolt aren't parts that are going to break at 50 or come loose at 45.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998468 06/25/20
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They will work with no problem.

Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998470 06/25/20
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Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by LoadClear
Those are perfectly acceptable and normal for getting a tq wrench on a nut when you cannot use a socket. Care must be taken (if you care about accurate torque) to keep the open end of the wrench at a 90 degree angle to the head of a torque wrench, If it is at 0 degrees, as in the top picture, you are increasing the moment arm of the wrench. If it is at 180 degrees, you are decreasing the moment arm (see how the open part of the wrench is forward of the pivot ie:extension?)

Sets like these (except by snap-on) is what I used when turning wrenches on aircraft... https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Proto-J5100-Torque-Adapter/dp/B001HWEAAG

Thanks. Those Stanley adapters are like the crow foot ones but basically act as a box end so it would apply pressure more uniformly around the nut. In addition to being tight and hard to reach, the nut isn't particularly hard. I used an adjustable wrench which only touches two sides to start to loosen it and the leading edges where the force was applied started to deform slightly.

I'm thinking that 47 ft/lbs is not critical but a reasonable or suggested amount of tightness, the nut and bolt aren't parts that are going to break at 50 or come loose at 45.


The technical term for adjustable wrench is "Swedish Nut Lathe" The are very effective at making a bolt head or nut nearly perfectly round.


With either crows feet, or torque adapters, just remember to keep them at 90 degrees from the torque wrench head to keep the torque accurate.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998514 06/25/20
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Crowfoot set, with enough of an extension that you can hold the extension to keep it plumb, is as good as you'll get. If your techniques under normal circumstances are good (and yes, there is a technique) then you'll be within a couple percent.

I will quibble with setting angle, however. When possible, I've usually gone with 180 degrees (open toward the handle), with just an extra nudge past the click. (We have Snap On dial wrenches) Never had an issue with that method -- and by the way, we use "Cat Come" thread gloop on EVERYTHING so we can get it apart next time. Permatex works just fine as well.

I'd suggest maybe you EXPERIMENT with an accessible fastener of similar size, try all three, and carefully note the rotational stop point, then re torque to see which angle comes closest to the real value you want. Remember, the ratchet head has a zillion positions.... Might not even be 90, 180, or zero. Might be 25 from zero either way.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998544 06/25/20
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The axis line of the extension is only maybe one inch further away from the axis line of the center of the nut on that 3/8 drive setup looking at the picture. I’d bet you’re not even .5 ft/lb difference than when being directly over the nut.

Get the box end crowfoot adapters, so you’ll be grabbing more surface area of the nut, and put it on 47, and click it. Done.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998565 06/25/20
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If it's on anything critical use the crow's foot at a 90 and find a dyno to test it on.

If you use a torque wrench very much you should dyno it frequently anyway.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998566 06/25/20
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Evnin gang, I don't recall a formula for the offset, but if you use an extension you loose 1lb for every 12in of extension. I think, it's been to long??? You'll be fine, use the line wrench, with the box end if ya can get them but even a line wrench will work. The plain open end may slip??? Like someone already said it won't break at fifty or come loose at thirty eight. Bill out. 👣🐾👣🐾🇨🇦 It may not even be needed, I swear some engineers do chit to pizz of mechanics 🤡

Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: GWPGUY] #14998634 06/25/20
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Jim in Idaho Offline OP
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in this case it was inscrutable Japanese motorcycle engineers who decided to put a muffler right next to the axle nut which you need to loosen to adjust the chain tension. I could remove the muffler but that adds a whole 'nuther level of PITA to what should be routine maintenance.

And of course it's a 19mm nut and my current set of metric wrenches only goes up to 18mm. I might try to find a single 19mm box end wrench, the longer the better and just TFAR it. What's the standard torque equivalent for "farmer tight"? wink

But seriously, I'll go ahead and get the right tools and then I'll have them. Thanks to all for the info, this helped a lot.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998800 06/25/20
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"Snug plus 1/6 turn" (one flat of the nut) will put you in the ballpark on a nut that size. BTW, 19MM and 3/4" are so close to the same size it takes a micrometer to measure the difference. I use whichever wrench or socket is handy, both ways.
Jerry


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14998817 06/25/20
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tighten till you think it might twist off.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14999008 06/25/20
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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14999046 06/25/20
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At those levels I just tighten when it feels right.


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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14999082 06/25/20
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Yeah. Just tighten the crap out of it.




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Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14999109 06/25/20
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Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
in this case it was inscrutable Japanese motorcycle engineers who decided to put a muffler right next to the axle nut which you need to loosen to adjust the chain tension. I could remove the muffler but that adds a whole 'nuther level of PITA to what should be routine maintenance.

And of course it's a 19mm nut and my current set of metric wrenches only goes up to 18mm. I might try to find a single 19mm box end wrench, the longer the better and just TFAR it. What's the standard torque equivalent for "farmer tight"? wink

But seriously, I'll go ahead and get the right tools and then I'll have them. Thanks to all for the info, this helped a lot.

Oh, the Japanese have a way. Loctite. Oops, has a lock nut already.... 47 is only half farmer tight and you don't want it to be too tight binding your chit. .

Last edited by MtnBoomer; 06/26/20.

Critical thinking not needed.

Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: Jim in Idaho] #14999195 06/26/20
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The crowfoot acts like a lever, no? And levers multiply torque by trading distance. Draw yourself a schematic using levers and do the math. Guessing you'll be about right if you stal at the lower end of torque spec givrn tolerances and the crowfoot making a small lever. (but I don't knowe that.)


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Which explains a lot.
Re: Help from the mechanics re torque wrench... [Re: LoadClear] #14999211 06/26/20
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Originally Posted by LoadClear
Those are perfectly acceptable and normal for getting a tq wrench on a nut when you cannot use a socket. Care must be taken (if you care about accurate torque) to keep the open end of the wrench at a 90 degree angle to the head of a torque wrench, If it is at 0 degrees, as in the top picture, you are increasing the moment arm of the wrench. If it is at 180 degrees, you are decreasing the moment arm (see how the open part of the wrench is forward of the pivot ie:extension?)

Sets like these (except by snap-on) is what I used when turning wrenches on aircraft... https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Proto-J5100-Torque-Adapter/dp/B001HWEAAG



Now see, that is information worth remembering.

Thank you for that.


These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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