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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 578
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 578 |
Howdy all,
I've loaded for short bbled .308/7.62x51 in the past. AR-10a4 carbine, M1-A bush rifle, etc. I just picked up a Sako AII fullstock carbine. (19" bbl) Looking forward to ekeing it out. It will be a whitetail and black timber elk gun, so I'm thinking lighter pills for deer, heavier for elk, vs. Find a monometal load (eg barnes) and use it for everything.
Opinions? Real world experience? All appreciated.
Thanks,
Gary
Last edited by GoWyo; 06/28/20.
"Damn right it's loaded, it makes a lousy club"
-JW
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,189
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,189 |
Heavier bullets lose less velocity than lighter bullets in shorter barrels. That is important consider. I don't find a lot of benefit in "monometal" bullets at 308 velocities. My real world experience dictates that I'd pick a 165-180 gr bullet that I trust to open easily, like a Nosler Partition or a Speer Hot-Core or a Hornady Interlock, and use one load. No point in using different bullets for deer and elk. Often when you are hunting one, you are hunting the other, and it's just another thing to keep track of and possibly go wrong.
If you are stuck on Barnes, I am sure they will work, but they aren't of much benefit at moderate velocity over the various lead-core bullets, even on elk. Don't pick the light-weight versions if you want to get the most out of your platform.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,333
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,333 |
Ruger M77 RSI, 18.5" barrel, bullet the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core at 2550 FPS over a max load of W760. (Long story on that load.) I've taken quite a few deer with that load from 30 feet to 250 yards. Only recovered one bullet and that was from the 250 yard deer. It retained roughly 65% of its original weight. FWIW, that's the only load that very finicky rifle will shoot with any kind of hunting accuracy and it took two years to find that load. Told you it was a long story.
Frankly, I see no need for a premium bullet for deer with the .308, especial with a short barrel. I have taken deer out as far as 426 paces with a different .308 that had a 20" barrel. I found that I like the 165 gr. bullet in the .308 over just about any other weight. It's a good compromise between weight and velocity.
Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
MOLON LABE
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,922
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,922 |
Heavier bullets lose less velocity than lighter bullets in shorter barrels. In my experience the opposite is true. But even then I'd not worry about it. I have 5 rifles in 308. One with an 18" barrel, one at 20" and the other 3 are 22". Of the 3 the one with the 20" barrel on the Tikka CTR is the fastest. The 22" Bergara and Winchester are a little slower but all 3 are within 25-30 fps of each other. The Kimber is 25-30 fps slower than the other 3. The 18" Ruger Predator is about 75 fps slower than the Tikka, but less than 50 fps slower than the Kimber. In other words don't let a 19" barrel decide which bullet you want to use.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 79
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 79 |
I worked hard, Hard, HARD to get a honey load for my Rem 600 Carbine. 150's, 165's, 180's, 4064, BLC-2, Varget,, 4320...Nothing seemed to work worth a flip. Mucho money & time spent and wasted. Finally just did some stock work, free floated the barrel, glass bedded the receiver and finally got it to group instead of spray. Final load was a 180 gr Nosler BT, 40.5gr of RL-15, with Win brass & primers. 7/8" groups @ 2450fps out of a 18 1/5" barrel. I put one in on the front left shoulder of a 140# 9pt buck, at 125 yds, and pulled the bullet out of it's right ham, just under the bulge in it's hide. 4 more went down with a single shot, dead , Flop. It's a d  mn good load for a carbine at shorter ranges, but I retired the rifle and went to a 7mm/08 when I moved to a different state where the hunting conditions were different..
"Be polite, be professional, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Gen. James Mathis, USMC
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,333
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,333 |
It took a while to find a load for a Ruger M77 RSI with 18.5" barrel. I finally got a load that would at least be a consistent 1.5" gun. I got into it chap because the original owner never could get a usable group from the rifle. I won't go into the two years to find that 1.5" grouping but it was a challenge. End result used a 165 gr. Speer hot Core over a max load of W760, Winchester brass and WLR primer. Change any of those components and accuracy goes right down the crapper. Works just fine on big Arizona Mule Deer fro 35 feet to 250 yards, the longest shot I've had to take.
I did have a good load for a Remington 660 that also worked quite well in my hunting partner's M600 Remmy running the 150 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter over H335. Damned if I remember the load though as all my load notes disappeared when I moved from Nevada to Arizona. The only thing I remember about that load was the very loud repot and very bright flash at the muzzle. Amazing!
Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them.
MOLON LABE
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Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,078
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,078 |
I’ve been loading H4895 in my 308’s pretty much exclusively for the past 12-15 years. I think it’s 45 with 150 horn and 43with 168 txs. The tsx load has been to Africa a few times and killed a big zebra stallion at nearly 300 yards with one shot. Took it elk hunting too but never got to pull the trigger. No doubts that it would do just as well on any bull that walks. The 150 horn is a wonderful deer load.
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,954
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,954 |
With a 19" barrel, a good 150gr bullet will keep you between 2700 and 2800. That's a good place to be.
Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler BalTip 30150
Useable Case Capaci: 46.998 grain H2O = 3.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 19.0 inch = 482.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61250 psi, or 422 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
50 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 75%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 106.9 50.5 3.27 2820 95.7 61250 10436 0.917 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 108.0 43.7 2.83 2820 100.0 61195 9473 0.925 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 107.0 49.4 3.20 2814 96.9 61250 10200 0.919 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 106.7 46.2 3.00 2813 97.4 61250 10267 0.929 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 99.2 46.3 3.00 2811 99.1 61250 9875 0.922 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 101.7 48.1 3.12 2807 98.3 61250 10115 0.929 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 108.0 46.8 3.03 2800 97.3 61170 10125 0.931 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 107.4 46.5 3.02 2797 96.7 61250 10131 0.931 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 104.3 44.2 2.86 2792 100.0 61250 9341 0.958 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 104.5 46.7 3.02 2791 99.5 61250 9656 0.939 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 102.2 46.7 3.02 2791 99.5 61250 9656 0.939 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 104.5 46.7 3.02 2791 99.5 61250 9656 0.939 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 103.5 44.9 2.91 2787 97.8 61250 9932 0.933 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 102.8 43.1 2.79 2786 100.0 61250 8724 0.927 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 101.7 47.1 3.05 2782 97.1 61250 9917 0.928 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 103.8 45.0 2.91 2779 97.3 61250 9906 0.934 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 94.2 44.5 2.89 2769 99.8 61250 9384 0.931 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 104.5 44.5 2.89 2768 99.8 61250 9379 0.936 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 106.8 46.8 3.03 2767 99.7 61250 9501 0.933 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 99.9 42.0 2.72 2765 100.0 61250 9114 0.928 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 93.9 42.0 2.72 2765 100.0 61250 9114 0.928 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 99.6 43.4 2.81 2762 98.5 61250 9546 0.932 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 108.0 47.8 3.10 2760 94.8 60249 9976 0.941 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision 108.0 45.5 2.95 2753 98.3 60344 9592 0.946 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 108.0 45.5 2.95 2753 98.3 60344 9592 0.946 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 101.8 44.1 2.86 2753 98.4 61250 9445 0.933 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 104.9 44.5 2.88 2752 98.4 61250 9543 0.945 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 108.0 47.3 3.06 2749 97.5 57204 9968 0.964 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 108.0 46.0 2.98 2748 96.6 59260 9657 0.933 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 97.6 45.3 2.94 2747 99.0 61250 9329 0.948 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 97.3 45.3 2.94 2747 99.0 61250 9329 0.948 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 100.9 47.1 3.05 2735 94.2 61250 9646 0.935 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 108.0 45.8 2.97 2735 99.7 56283 9634 0.991 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 95.7 44.5 2.88 2734 99.0 61250 9162 0.945 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 95.7 44.5 2.88 2734 99.0 61250 9162 0.945 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 99.4 43.9 2.85 2732 100.0 61250 8864 0.934 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 96.6 45.3 2.94 2731 97.9 61250 9264 0.942 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 97.3 39.8 2.58 2728 100.0 61250 8541 0.945 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 98.5 45.5 2.95 2728 97.0 61250 9368 0.937 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 100.8 44.3 2.87 2725 95.4 61250 9410 0.933 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 108.0 45.4 2.94 2722 96.0 59283 9537 0.941 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 94.5 42.3 2.74 2721 99.0 61250 9058 0.937 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 108.0 49.1 3.18 2721 95.2 51894 10558 0.980
Accurate 2015 100.1 41.5 2.69 2717 100.0 61250 8475 0.950 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 108.0 45.3 2.93 2712 95.9 58631 9507 0.946 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 92.4 42.6 2.76 2712 98.9 61250 8977 0.938 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 100.4 42.8 2.78 2712 98.8 61250 8988 0.937 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 94.9 43.8 2.84 2710 98.0 61250 9009 0.937 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 93.4 39.6 2.56 2708 100.0 61250 8328 0.959 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 103.2 43.5 2.82 2706 97.3 61250 9080 0.936 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 102.4 43.9 2.84 2697 97.7 61250 8968 0.936 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 108.0 49.5 3.21 2694 89.6 53595 10091 0.975 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 108.0 49.5 3.21 2694 89.6 53595 10091 0.975 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 106.0 42.0 2.72 2690 100.0 61250 8181 0.938 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 108.0 44.2 2.86 2686 95.9 56998 9319 0.962 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 96.5 37.5 2.43 2686 100.0 61250 7911 0.931 ! Near Maximum !
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 578
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 578 |
"Damn right it's loaded, it makes a lousy club"
-JW
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,087
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,087 |
Ruger M77 RSI, 18.5" barrel, bullet the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core at 2550 FPS over a max load of W760. (Long story on that load.) I've taken quite a few deer with that load from 30 feet to 250 yards. Only recovered one bullet and that was from the 250 yard deer. It retained roughly 65% of its original weight. FWIW, that's the only load that very finicky rifle will shoot with any kind of hunting accuracy and it took two years to find that load. Told you it was a long story.
Frankly, I see no need for a premium bullet for deer with the .308, especial with a short barrel. I have taken deer out as far as 426 paces with a different .308 that had a 20" barrel. I found that I like the 165 gr. bullet in the .308 over just about any other weight. It's a good compromise between weight and velocity.
Paul B. Almost sounds like I wrote this. Used a Rem Mod 660 in 308 for many years and the bullet I used 99% of the time was the 165gr Hornady inter lock/spire point. The only other bullet I used it it was the old 200gr Hornady spire point. Carried it along on fishing trip's up in Alaska. I think when God made the 308 he also made the 165gr bullet to use in it. I have never had a Hornady bullet fail me. The other bullet I'd look at if something didn't sit well with the Hornady is the Speer Hot Core. Used it in a 7mm Rem Mag years ago and that was one super bullet. I shot it into a pile of newspaper years ago, 160gr from the 7mm mag. It retained 85% of it's weight, mushroomed perfectly and the core was still solidly bonded to the jacket. Liked the Hornady in my other rifled for an accuracy advantage that today I know would never benefit a hunter. Between the 154gr Hornady and 160gr Speer the Speer edged out the Hornady by about a quarter inch at 100yds! The Hornady also maintained 85% of it's weight in the pile of news paper but the core turned easily in the jacket, did not separate and mushroom was fine. I tried Nosler also years ago and no where near as accurate and then they had a habit of shearing the jacket off at the partition, Tried them again when I got my 6.5x06 and they shoot much much better but didn't shoot them into anything to see what the jacket did. Today the only thing that keeps me from trying any premium bullet is price! I can get more than adequate performance from standard cup and core bullet IF, I choose the bullet well. I suspect at this time there are a slew of very god bullet's out there but I just never deserted bullet's that never failed me. A guy could spend a lot of years changing bullet's and looking for the perfect bullet. It doesn't exist except in your mind!
Last edited by DonFischer; 08/31/20. Reason: spelling
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,087
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,087 |
I worked hard, Hard, HARD to get a honey load for my Rem 600 Carbine. 150's, 165's, 180's, 4064, BLC-2, Varget,, 4320...Nothing seemed to work worth a flip. Mucho money & time spent and wasted. Finally just did some stock work, free floated the barrel, glass bedded the receiver and finally got it to group instead of spray. Final load was a 180 gr Nosler BT, 40.5gr of RL-15, with Win brass & primers. 7/8" groups @ 2450fps out of a 18 1/5" barrel.
I put one in on the front left shoulder of a 140# 9pt buck, at 125 yds, and pulled the bullet out of it's right ham, just under the bulge in it's hide. 4 more went down with a single shot, dead , Flop.
It's a d@mn good load for a carbine at shorter ranges, but I retired the rifle and went to a 7mm/08 when I moved to a different state where the hunting conditions were different.. I have had three rifles in my life i never glass bedded Two Mossberg Patriot's that shot great as they came and a mod 70 Featherweight that also shot fine as it came. Every other rifle I've ever owned, bolt action, even if they shot well, glass bedding always improved them. Only exception was a Rem Mod 7 in 223 that simply would not shoot well!
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