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Iron, I can't make sense of this brenneke slug stuff. On paper, they are the maximum. They are the ultimate 12 gauge fodder. I witnessed this:
Individual who only owned a 12 gauge pump, shoots massive bull moose square in the neck at about 35-40 yds away with brenneke black magic. Bull drops motionless, guy sets down shotgun. Bull jumps up and bolts like a sprint racer. 2 HOURS later, guy catches up to bedded down bull. Finished off with a handgun as bull slowly rises to continue his death march.
Iron, I have skiny Indian fingers. That slug hit four fingers-width from behind the ear. So about 3.5 inches lower than behind ear. Blood everywhere, slug left clean nickel sized exit hole.
Two things happened immediately: I lost faith in neck shots on large game.
I began to question the mighty brenneke.
I will say this: I don't understand what the heck happened there.
Was the spirit and willpower of the big bull so tough, that he fought for his life?
Was it more mechanical, in that the slug missed an artery or bone?
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Now that the experts have spoken about the appropriateness of each cartridge... My experience shooting a 8.5lb .375 H&H off the bench is that it is quite a bit nicer than many "smaller" rifles. I stepped "down" to that from the 338 RUM, as mine was both unwieldy (26" barrel), a punishment on the shoulder, and LOUD. But dang, did it shoot. The 20" barreled 375 is much more fun to shoot all around, but especially multiple shots off the bench and any shots from prone. I've done 100 round range sessions and they were not nearly as painful as the same thing with a lightweight 280AI. Even compared to a standard weight 300WIN, I don't think the recoil is nearly as sharp on the 375. I can't say how effective it is on coastal brown bears, but I can say that recoil for a standard weight 375 H&H with a good stock and recoil pad is nothing to be scared of.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. I have killed a lot of Kodiak deer with a Roberts and hunted with several guys using the 223. This makes sense to me. If you place your shot(s) where they need to go, you can shut down a big bear right there and then. If you don't, bigger isn't likely going to be any better.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Oracle
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Iron, I can't make sense of this brenneke slug stuff. On paper, they are the maximum. They are the ultimate 12 gauge fodder. I witnessed this:
Individual who only owned a 12 gauge pump, shoots massive bull moose square in the neck at about 35-40 yds away with brenneke black magic. Bull drops motionless, guy sets down shotgun. Bull jumps up and bolts like a sprint racer. 2 HOURS later, guy catches up to bedded down bull. Finished off with a handgun as bull slowly rises to continue his death march.
Iron, I have skiny Indian fingers. That slug hit four fingers-width from behind the ear. So about 3.5 inches lower than behind ear. Blood everywhere, slug left clean nickel sized exit hole.
Two things happened immediately: I lost faith in neck shots on large game.
I began to question the mighty brenneke.
I will say this: I don't understand what the heck happened there.
Was the spirit and willpower of the big bull so tough, that he fought for his life?
Was it more mechanical, in that the slug missed an artery or bone? The paper thing, is the thing. When I carried a 12 .ca, I loaded Brenneke slugs. Never have had to use them though. The on-paper can give a false sense of safety with brownies. Tbat waz my point of trying to relate Klik's experience. I've now am of the opinion that (almost) any rifle is better than a shotgun, (ir)regardless of the paper. Even if in a glossy-paged magazine! Curious what you found when cutting up that bull? No spine hit?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
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Big difference in interior brown bear and coastal. The interior bear may only go 5-600 lbs even for a big one. A coastal brownie may go 800 or so and a very exceptional Kodiak or ABC bear might go 800-1,000 lbs. Most bear are not weighed so part of of the discrepancy in reported weights.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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I see bears every year that weigh well over 1000 pounds and have killed some that I know weighed lose to 1500 pounds. My son has flown for the federal polar bear studies for the past 7-8 years and they have scales on the helicopter to actually weigh the bears. They also have weighed bears between 1400 & 1500 and my son claims the biggest bears we take are every bit as large.
We did kill one good sized boar in the fall that had been weighed by F&G that spring at the den . 982 pounds and after a spring and summer of eating they easily gain 300-400 pounds. And that one was nowhere near the largest
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Occasionally grizzly bears get into the 1000lb range even in the lower 48. Unusual but it does happen.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win . So you can read between the lines ! Phil, What do your son and daughter carry when they guide for brown bears?
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Occasionally grizzly bears get into the 1000lb range even in the lower 48. Unusual but it does happen. Art Young and Saxton Pope supposedly tag teamed a 1000 pound grizzly in Wyoming in the 1920s. I doubt they had certified scales with them, so a guy will just have to make up their own mind as to how accurate that estimate was.
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There was a grizzly in Lincoln, MT that was the largest bear in Montana. It was killed on Highway 200 just outside Lincoln. It weighed 830 lbs. It was mounted and put in the Lincoln Post Office for a time. I don't know where it is now.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win . So you can read between the lines ! Phil, What do your son and daughter carry when they guide for brown bears? Tia started out with a 338 Win, then fell in love with the 375 Ruger when it first cam out. Then when it jammed on her during a bear charge, due to the first edition of the Hornady DGX with the wide, flat meplat, she lost some faith in it and wanted an Echols rifle in 416. So she now uses the 416 for virtually everything . Taj loves the 375 Ruger but also carries his 475 Turnbull and a Ruger 35 Whelen on some hunts
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I have to say I lost a bit of excitement about the thing once I actually handled one of the Hawkeye .375 Rugers. Smooth feeding was not one of it's virtues, especially in comparison to most H&Hs I've handled. This was years ago, so likely with those early rounds. It was also before I heard of your trick of ever so slightly dremeling the start of the chamber.
Last edited by pabucktail; 07/08/20.
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients.
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Never hunted bear, or plan to ever hunt a bear. But this is an excellent thread.
All American
All the time
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”.
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well the next time I get to go I will pass on my 375h& and my 9.2x64 and go straight to my old fateful 3006. should work just fine,
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”. I walked up to a sleeping brown bear, got maybe 20ft from it as I came to the top of a hill. Luckily the wind was in my face so the bear never woke up. I backed out of there real quiet like and swung way around where it was. I was puckered for sure!
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Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?
I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.
Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.
With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients. No, those were factory loads she was carrying. I have enough sense lot to load wide, flat nosed bullets with steel jackets in any bolt action ! I had a heart to heart talk with Hornady at the next SCI show and I am sure so did many others. The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you. My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”. I walked up to a sleeping brown bear, got maybe 20ft from it as I came to the top of a hill. Luckily the wind was in my face so the bear never woke up. I backed out of there real quiet like and swung way around where it was. I was puckered for sure! I was glassing for caribou up in the Talkeetnas 3-4 years ago when I caught movement in the corner of my eye, outside of the ocular lens. 20 yards away was what I thought was a small cub grizzly. My britches got smelly and heavy as I frantically looked around for momma. I then looked back at the cub, and it ended up being a big porcupine with that grizzled look and color scheme they have, especially when viewing them from the back. I'm still traumatized
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Had a bear stand up and woof/snap at me at 20 yds on kodiak. Really didn’t want to have to shoot it as I had flown in that same day. All ended well but had a few moments of oh crap.
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