Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Setting your full length die to bump the shoulder.

I’m just curious how many of you guys use a gauge versus just setting the headspace buy feel?

I bump the shoulders and measure with a Hornady gauge.

There fixed it

I only bump the shoulder of the case chambers with too much force.

It rarely needs it.

Ive done both. Both work just fine. One thing youll find is one person's "feel" may not be quite the same as anothers. If you dont know how, you may need to use a gauge.

Been reloading about 50 years. Don't own a gauge. Always set the die by feel.

this.
and where can a guy "buy" a feel?

RCBS case mic for every caliber I load for.

Same here. These days it seem's to me that reloading has become a science. I've gotten pretty worn out with that.

I handload cartridges using methods/tools from basic to somewhat advanced, all according to what I want to accomplish at the time.

With a bit of experience, or guidance from someone who has been around the bench a few laps, you pick up tricks of the trade. For example, for a wide class of cartridges all you need if you want to measure shoulder bump is an empty piece of 40 S&W brass. Put the 40 case over the mouth of your 308, 30-06 or the like. Measure the whole shebang. Size your case. Measure again the same way. The difference is the bump, no fancy gauge needed.

That or set your die up so it barely bumps the shoulder, try to chamber that casing. If it doesn't chamber it, screw the die in a hair bit more. Once it starts to chamber that partially sized case, the feel will go from a lot of resistance in closing the bolt to closing with just enough resistance that you know you have your die set right. This chidt isn't rocket science and I'm with Don who said he's sick of hearing about how you need all these gadgets for loading the same ammo that guys have been successfully loading for decades upon decades. A guy can get buy with the bare essentials when reloading and do a damn good job at it. There are a lot of newbies around that are led to believe that you can't do it without certain gauges and tools and it ends up costing the new hand loader an exorbitant amount of money, just to get started, because they are led to believe such nonsense.. Guys need to get back to the basics and stop spreading this horse manure... Not directed at you mathman, your 40S&W case trick is a good one.

Yeah but a lot of folks make it out to be.
I think a lot of this stuff comes from the difference between making serviceable ammo and the guys making BR or LR ammo. As Mathman said, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
Incorporating some of the precision without knowing the difference can do more harm than good.

As long as there's nothing bad wrong with your brass, your two die set, and the neck portion of the FL die isn't a lot tighter than it needs to be for the batch of brass involved you can do some pretty fine work with basic equipment.

The italicized part is pretty important. It's what gives expander balls a bad reputation. It would be quite easy for me to demonstrate this to a student at my loading bench. I have at least six FL dies for 308 Winchester and a wide variety of brass of differing thickness.

I've tried to get fancy with measuring equipment, but have found that the reloading process outlined by bsa1917hunter works well for me. I do measure the chamber length and base my initial bullet seating depth on this number but, I still use the ease of chambering method as the main guide in the reloading process. Nothing is more frustrating than having a reload that is hard to chamber in the field. This may not work as well for reloading for benchrest competition but it has worked for me for developing hunting loads.

Legally? At the bunny ranch.

Lots of the fancy tools are just a means to monetize, and provide access to the tricks and tools of the guys who have been reloading for 50 years have figured out.
Think six-sigma and manufacturing....
Can you build auto parts without it? Certainly.
can you make flat shooting loads near the edge? Absolutely.
Are you more likely to catch a problem if you are measuring 16 different things?
Only if you are paying attention.

amen to all the above,,,,,,,,,,

loaded for 30 plus years, and I do have "too many " thingys,,,,,,,,,,,,measuring devices that measure to the split hairs,,,,,,,,,,,,
at the end of the day,, chamber the dang thing an feel it,,,,,,,,,,,,, yes, I use the compairtor for a base line,,,, but its gotta chamber right,,,

not hard,,,

Good shooting ya,ll

Indeed, and nobody needs to buy it since we were all born with it.
In response to the OP question, here's what I do. When I start out with some new brass in a rifle for which I have not ALREADY optimized my FL sizer, I set the die a bit off the shellholder, "sharpie" the neck/shoulder of a case, and make sure that I am just sizing the neck a few thou short of the shoulder. I find it typically takes two firings with the brass sized like this until I start to get noticeable "crush fit" resistance to closing the bolt (sorry but this technique is bolt-centric). Then, I begin to advance the die into the press about a sixteenth of a turn at a time (or less), resizing the same case and chambering it. The chambering force should feel about the same with each advance until you get "there." "There" is a noticeable reduction in chambering force, but still just a hint of resistance at the end of the stroke - smile and lock down the ring on that die. If the sixteenth turn results in going from stiff resistance to no resistance, back it off a 32nd (i.e. a hair) and get another of your hard chambering cases, and size it. You should be "there" now, and can set the lock ring. As long as I am shooting the same rifle, I lust leave it right there for the future. I take a sharpie and put the point of it right on the juncture of the lock ring and the die body and give it a push to put a dot that lies half on each. That way if I need to reset the die for another rifle, it's easy to put it back right for the first. And I can use a different color sharpie to put a mark for the other rifle.

Now I might not be right in doing it this way, as I read a lot of references to "bumping back" the shoulder to around .002 SHORT of a perfect fit. But I prefer to set my dies like the above for the long term, let the brass form to fully fill the chamber for a firing or so, then have every subsequent pass through the die keep it right there.

Any thoughts from the sages?

Thanks
Rex

I happily and unapologetically use one of these. I like to know if I am bumping .001, .002, .003 or whatever. I may do it for reasons beyond copping a feel.... Meaning, I may do it even if not "tight" in the chamber such as making a cartridge that'll work in multiple rifles, eg, not seeking a crush fit. I also prefer 8" caliper because of the added length of these gizmos as well as the ones that sit on the olgive. I like them so much in fact I find it unnecessary to own a 40. Nor do I think it is rocket surgeryish, just a simple tool of the trade.

When I hear people talk about case gauges or headspace gauges I assume they're talking about these https://www.brownells.com/reloading...e-length-headspace-gauges-prod55081.aspx

in which case I haven't used them before although I have a couple sets that were given to me many years ago for the common pistol rounds I don't recall ever having used them

The Hornady tool referenced above, pistol case trick, stubs, etc are just comparators for taking measurents. A very different tool than a case gauge, not sure why the two get conflated in these kinds of discussions. Personally I find comparators very useful and use them in conjunction with feel, don't know where there notion comes from that it has to be all one or the other.

After posting I remembered Alex Wheeler had posted a video on the procedure of using different methods in conjunction with each other.

https://youtu.be/WfWS7R1CdZI

Nice piece of information. Did not know about the 40 S&W trick. I have used bolt spacers to measure headspace. I did pick up the hornady set, and use them.

I like measuring because I am type A that way.

Agree 100%, those that do it by feel have no idea if they are bumping .001" or .010"

My loading process was much better before I had the tools to measure things

This is doubtlessly 100% correct. Nor do they (we) care how much we are bumping it. We are sizing the brass to a perfect fit in that particular chamber. It matters not how oversized it formally was, only that after a pass through the optimally adjusted full length sizer, it is now just right.
So not knowing how much you are bumping back has no bearing on how nicely you are preparing that case to be fired in that rifle, and insuring its long life, assuming one uses the process I described earlier in the thread. (As far as I know ;o)

Cheers,
Rex

I have been reloading rifle cartridges for 35 years and simply follow the full length sizing instructions on the dies which are all basically the same. Ram to top of press struck, Screw in die to touch top of shell holder, set 1/8-14 turn deeper.

I have had exactly 2 problems with not enough sizing. I do not understand all the fuss about "bumping" the shoulder.

This, or an RCBS case Mic for a couple of calibers.

That's strange....I know how much I am bumping back by how much I adjust my sizing die. The difference is the chamber. Every chamber is different in shape, particularly around the shoulder of the case. There may be a standardized datum line measurement, but that doesn't mean you headspace off of it when the gun gets fired. Depending on the vagueries of your chamber, you may be headspacing right on the point of the shoulder, or right at the shoulder-neck juncture. So YOU don't really have any idea how much YOU are bumping. That is why I go by feel, and move my die downward a couple thousandths of an inch at a time. If a round chambered tight at one setting, and chambered freely at the next adjustment, I have, at most, .002" headspace leeway, and likely about .001". See, if you use your brain properly, it is the best tool you possess.

The generic instructions mostly lead to too much sizing.

And thus reduced brass life. The only time setting the dies generically works best is if you are loading for something other than a bolt action. I can see where that would be best for a semi auto or a pump.

THIS^^^
I've got dies that would bump 0-.010 if I set them up like the instructions, one die set I had to take .010 off the top of the shell holder to get it to bump .002.
You can "feel" .002 to each his own though.

Too much sizing...??? I dunno, my rounds always chamber, my worst rifle shoots 1 1/8 with its hunting load.

Brass life? - I don't think I have ever loaded a piece of brass more than 5 times. I lose the brass by then.

Well, there it is then. If you don't care you're good to go with the factory instructions.

Because i several rifles in the same caliber i just reset the brass to new size.

Other rifles get the same treatment but each rifle is a critter unto it's self.

Brass life

Best post in this thread.

Most good bolt guns with a well cut chamber will re-chamber fired brass, as is, & really don't need the shoulder bumped at all until at such a time as it won't re-chamber.

That's why neck sizing works......................

MM

I use the Redding shellholder kits that allow the die to touch the shellholder while still allowing control of the shoulder bump, or lack of it if that is what you want. As the one poster noted, a neck sized case will be hard to chamber after a few firings, then start with the 0.010 thicker shellholder. If that doesn't allow easy chambering, use the 0.008, and so forth till the crush fit almost, or completely disappears. Write in your die box which shellholder to use so you don't forget.
You are then bumping the shoulder a maximum of 0.002" which I can live with for hunting ammo.

I keep chidt simple and make "serviceable" ammo. Trust me, there aren't too many guys here making stellar LR or BR ammo that they can brag about here, or they would have taken me up on the offer to post their results in the MOA all day long thread. A lot of guys that think they know what the fu ck they speak of, but not proving it. The writing is on the wall... Like I said, this chidt isn't rocket science. And in regards to brass life, I hear some guys toss their brass after loading it 5 times. That too is a waste. I use FL dies, not neck dies and can load most of my brass 15+ times, by that time the primer pockets are loose, so its time to toss it anyway. There are many ways to skin the cat here, but guys are going to have to start proving to me that their way is better, and that hasn't happened yet. KISS.



Most guys here are talking about hunting rifles and loads for those rifles. Not loading for full on benchrest competitions.

Erik Cortina is worth a follow on YouTube guys. Just some excellent content. In regards to the OP original question? Watch this. Erik couldn’t make it any easier to show how to set up your FL sizer for 0.002” shoulder bump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htvk1UYOXm8

The same place that he can buy a "bump".

Yeah, that's the scientific way with actual tools & real measurements..................nowhere near as accurate as those with talented feel in their hands. Laughin' here.

Tools work for me when I'm interested in precision & knowing what the exact numbers are.

MM

There are many ways to set a full-length die. All of them are wrong.

It’s incredibly easy to do, nothing is left to speculation or “feel”. I recommend you guys take the time to watch that video I posted.

Laughin' here.....................

MM

marking this thread

I started using the Stony Point/Hornady case gauge 25+ years ago, wouldn't be without it. I have calipers dedicated to my Stony Point case gauge and comparator bodies, and they have been attached to the calipers for going on a couple decades now.

That's the problem with all these fancy tools--a guy finds out just how much things vary, and then drive yourself nuts trying the minimize that variation.........sheesh.

See what I mean?!!!

I often feel that when a person reaches a point where repeatability is nigh onto impossible, he's gone beyond a reasonable point.

Zediker makes a point multiple times in his books: it's up to the individual to decide whether a process is worth the extra effort.

Which means said individual has to know what he's trying to accomplish. Eg. more consistently knocking out "1s and 2s". Or shooting deer and moose out to 200 yds. Or trying to maximize case life. Or not caring. Eieio......

I use the Hornady comparator on my Mitutoyu caliper to measure the bump, and I use the multi-thickness Redding “Competition” Shellholder Set to control the bump. I like that combination because it’s very easy and repeatable.

If you're turning your die in 1/4 or 1/8 turn at a time to achieve easy chambering, you are no doubt pushing your shoulder back a lot more than necessary---unless you happen to luck out with the way your chamber is reamed, the way your sizing die is reamed, and the way your shell holder was machined.

If / when I use a FL die, I adjust it to bump the shoulder back so that I like the way bolt closure feels---slightly firm, but no more than that. I do this using measurements as I go so that I can keep track of the increments of shoulder bump as I am changing the adjustment.

If you do the arithmetic, turning the die body into the press six degrees should bump the shoulder an additional 0.0012" and that is the equivalent of the movement of the second hand of a clock in one second. Mathman has some objection to this concept...I don't recall exactly, but maybe it was press flex or something along those lines. Maybe he'll be so kind as to pipe up and remind us (ME). The concept is still valid, though. To "get it right" by turning your die an additional eighth of a turn is highly unlikely to land you right in the sweet spot.

The brass has spring to it. So when you start it moving it won't necessarily linearly follow the amount the die is turned into the press.

Yes, it's probably a little unpredictable in that way but it still should be a fairly close approximation...but the point is that screwing the die in *just a little bit more* can push the shoulder back much further than what you intend.

I would imagine that annealing reduces the "spring back" effect just as it affects bullet pull (I dislike the term "neck tension").

That can happen even if you're turning the die in by very small amounts. Suppose the little increments you've been using have been working against elastic deformation and then the next increment added on goes into the plastic region. Boing! How did I move the shoulder that much?

Checking fired brass I'll see 1-2 thou variation. Same lot, fired in same chamber. After sizing still about same amount variation.

And that first piece of brass used to incrementally move the die, having been worked a few times, will usually be shorter than the next piece sized at that same setting.

Tedious, but it's about brass life not safety. When I'm trying to keep bump to a minimum will check every piece in the chamber.

That's why I anneal my brass before setting the few FL dies I am using, or my body dies. I measure as I adjust, using a fresh case for each adjustment. Once I find that sweet spot I lock the ring and leave it there.

This is what I do, and love those Redding competition shell holders.

Once you find out which shell holder to use for your load, which only bumps the shoulder between 1 and 2 thousands, you just set up the press normally then on all future loads for that set of dies and that caliber... you are always "bang-on", and don't have to fiddle with resetting the die and testing/measuring incrementally as you lower it more and more.

Saves beaucoup time and is repeatable.

Did you mean .0012, or did you mean .012?

0.0012"