Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Berger Bullets?

I've killed'em with Barnes, Berger, Scenar, Nosler, Horn, Sierra, Cutting Edge Bullets, et. al.; they all died.

To me, you gotta balance bullet design parameters with bullet weight and velocity.

And, stick that bullet where it needs to go.

The variables make it Loony interesting. I guess we're easily entertained...

Gives us something to nit pick at the skinning shed and ruminate about after the fact.

DF

That’s a good point DF. I know we hear non stop about what works for another person and how it’s perfect when in reality we all expect different things. I think your point about putting the bullet in the mushy organs makes a lot of it just “skinning shed talk” though, like you mentioned.

Have seen a number of big game animals taken with Hunting VLDs where you had to part the hair to find the entrance hole--which looked like it was poked by a knitting needle.

I believe you, doesn't much matter to me as long as it upsets and destroys lungs/heart. From all I have read the 215 Berger is a beast of a bullet, plus, anything 215 grains is going to leave a mark I'd think. The 220 Scenar was about as normal an exit as I've seen from a Partition/Accubond as anything else. Started at 3050 from the RUM I expected more destruction but it just left dead deer in it's wake.

I've seen that numerous times.

They perform as described.

DF

I agree with you GregW, chittt happens if you whack enough animals. One thing I do know is that the 139 Scenar I used last year performed as good as a bullet can perform, IMO. Looking forward to 2nd chapter with them this year.

Beretzs

The 150s are a great bullet of choice in the 270. I’m gonna guess you will have great success with them. The 215s are amazing also and I would expect nothing but great success with them also.

Some mental meandering....

I also agree with GregW. I've seen a lot of weird schitt with various bullets in a lot of contexts, including hunting bullets. I never had an exit on any medium or big game animal I shot through my teens, even with broadside shots. I didn't know they were "required" for decades after that, and I got on the Campfire. I never considered the possibility of an exit having any value until then. I shot things and they died. Sometimes they wandered a ways first, and I had to find them. Sometime later, I did think back and recall that I did see bullets exit in my teens, shot by fellow hunters, and that the animals generally went farther when the bullets exited, as a rule, unless big bones were hit. I was taught not to shoot for big bones.

Eventually I learned that there are many ways to get the job of killing done, and came to admire neck shots for their efficiency when they were available. I still don't like to shoot for shoulders, but it happens. I still notice that unless big bones are hit, bullets that exit generally mean that the animal will go a bit further, but I've never seen that it's relevant, and there are obvious exceptions. All the bullets I've used have killed. A few didn't do as well for me as I had hoped, based upon what I expected. Some have exceeded my expectations. Bergers, and other BTHP "target" bullets have exceeded my expectations, but with the caviat that they aren't propelled faster than 2850 or so, at least on elk. Deer are another story.

Those that I have shot past 3000fps seem to have been a bit more volatile in their performance, and have seemed to be LESS fragile up close than farther out. A .243" 105 at 3050 blew through both shoulders of a buck, as in through both humerus bones, then exited at about 30 yds. It wasn't a good shot. The far shoulder meat was destroyed. The deer looked like it was hit with a wrecking ball. That same bullet barely made it into the rib cage on a cow elk hit square in the shoulder on a quartering shot at exactly 300 yds. The next two exited through the rear lungs broadside, but she was all adrenalined up by then, and a neck shot (that exited) dropped her. I am sure a lot of bullets would have done exactly the same, and some would have done better.

I'd already gotten my cow that year using a much older (and likely softer) SST out of a 270 at 438 yds, which again centered the shoulder and the humerus on a quartering-to shot. She went straight down. There was an exit in the far rear ribs, but not in the hide, and I didn't see the bullet. We had two cows down out of that group, and autopsy wasn't part of the priorities. My brother shot the other cow using ABLR, and he shot his cow in exactly the same spot, but not quartering. That bullet exited the hide.The cow dumped at the shot but got up and stayed on her feet for about 30 yds.

A couple years prior, a cow hit with a 190 Berger at 70 yds behind the shoulder but high just couldn't get to her feet again, though she was alive for longer than I prefer. Not a spine hit. Entrance was a pinpoint. Exit was between a golf ball and a raquetball. Like she got hit with a wrecking ball. Another 190 at 450 or so exited broadside on a barrel-bodied raghorn the previous year. He made it about 25 yds.

Prior to that, a cow at about 150 broadside low right through the heart using a Berger 185 that exited. She didn't react to the shot, and I thought I may have missed. She ran about 50 yds and stopped, so I shot her again in the ribs. Her insides were a mess. My deer that year was steeply quartering from the rear, and the Berger exited (some of it exited, as there was lead and copper fragments in the chest), from close range. I basically brought the gun up and aimed for center mass, as he turned slightly, noticing me as I raised the rifle. He ran, but stayed in view and sort of fell down. I don't recall the distance, and I never noted it. That was the year I feared Bergers were TOO HARD. I think they actually work better the farther they fly.

I used 180 gr Partitions the following year and had predictable results, but nothing different. We had to actually find my elk, as it made a mad dash into thick timber. I hit it in the lungs perfectly, and exited. My deer I shot in the forehead. It was as expected.

If I had enough time, I would relate a dozen other examples of things shot with various bullets that show quite a diversity of behaviors after the hit, if the CNS isn't dismantled, but the lesson I keep taking from all of it again and again is that bullets that don't necessarily exit work better at putting animals down fast if hit in vitals (but not CNS), but that most of them kill just fine across a broad range of circumstances. I still like bullets that seem to transfer their energy through some form of fragmentation the best.

Thanks 805, I have heard from a few I trust the 140 and 150 Berger’s work real well.

I’m looking forward to the 215’s on elk and deer.

I have been using the Berger VLD for quite some time.

Deadliest bullet I have ever used but in fairness I have pretty much stopped shooting any other bullet for big game except for a dozen or so plastic tipped AMAXs and TMKs.

I shoot for elk shoulder blades and don't lose much meat but do get great bullet performance.

I am probably just into 3 digits of elk killed in my presence with the VLDs so there's that.

In particular the 105gr VLD kills elk really well if you get a little scapula on the way in.

If you feel the need for exits so you can track poorly hit game the Berger VLD might not be the best choice, but if you shoot well expect great results.

Good Luck.

I don't know if it is just a coincidence or what, but I just have not had the same experience as some of you all with bergers and elk shoulders.

Here's typical 6.5mm 140 grain berger performance for me on non-shoulder shot elk. Extra cow at 438 yards away, IIRC. Two shots tight behind the shoulder. She then trotted 20 yards and fell over. Perfectly adequate lethality, but not the exit and instant death performance some of you all seem to have time and time again. They're supposed to expand violently once inside the critter (which these did) but I sure am not seeing exits or instant death like others are. I dug both of these out of the rib meat on the far side, and they were not resting up against the hide like other bullets usually are. I think I have recovered six (6) 140 grain bergers like this now out of lung shot elk, and I can think of four (4) other lung shot elk I shot in which I didn't fish around in the soupy lung cavity to find the expanded berger(s).


Hitting elk on the shoulder with these has produced nothing but misery for me. Not ruined meat mind you, but rodeos in getting another bullet in them. I'm glad others have found elk bullets that they're confident with in the berger, but I've come to different conclusions with regards to their shoulders.

Not sure how to say it politely, but both of y’all are full of bovine dung (How’s that?)

I gotta agree with Greg. Barnes bullets unless driven at warp speed aren’t worth Dung and then they still aren’t that impressive. Much rather shoot a Hammer bullet for Monos AKA a copper Berger style bullet.

I was going to ask about them but didn’t wanna derail this too much. I recently grabbed some 181 Hammers for my 300 RUM. Seems like they break apart big time up front while still retaining a shank. Anybody used em. Seems like they’ve had great reports. The 181’s are sleek looking devils and at 3350 they will fly far as I need them too.

Kreedmire, kiss, find pressure butt rock on, start at the start, alpha brass toldjaso blah blah blah!!! 😂😂😂😂

My 260 Rem with 130gr. Bergers had the same effect on mule deer, 97 yards to 419 yards. All deer were recovered but not a cleanly as I would prefer.

That being said, no other bullet produced the accuracy the 130gr Berger did in my 260 Rem.

Not sure of exactly what “warp speed” is, but have had extremely good success (dating back to the original X bullet of the early ‘90’s) with TSX’s with a muzzle velocity of 2900 FPS. Mine in particular had low BC’s.....but somehow managed to kill very effectively to 400 yards and a bit beyond! memtb

Odd that you’ve had issues on shoulders with them.

I don’t see exits very often with scenars or Berger’s either (I actually prefer them to not exit) so we have the same experience there. but I’ve never had to track an animal very far that’s been hit with one. Overall they’re the fastest killing bullets I’ve used.

Many years ago I had one splatter on a shoulder without much penetration but have not seen it since. I did recover that elk and wish I would’ve investigated a little better, I’ve wondered since then if the bullet hit something first or was tumbling slightly on impact, shoulder was mangled on the entrance side. It was a one time deal and I personally don’t worry about it happening again, [bleep] happens.

A friend did have some fail to expands with hybrids on a mountain goat a few years ago, the Goat was recovered but caused some grief with the recovery. I’ve been cleaning out the tips since then with a tiny PCB drill bit to ease my mind, so far so good.

Did not have reliable success with the original 'X' bullet and could never bring myself to use the TSX as a result. The MRX, TTSX and LRX have been 100% reliable on coyotes, antelope, mule deer and elk using .257 Roberts, 6.5CM, 7mm RM, multiple .30-06, .300WM. Not one recovered so far, right around 50% straight down DRT with no animal going more than a few yards. My hunt group has used handloads and factory ammo and we like them. A lot.

CH,
I never used the original X bullet, but started out with Barnes TSX in my .30-06 because it shot those better than anything else other than old Core-Lokts, both cut tight clover leafs at 100 yards. I only shot a few critters with the TSX and since I have moved on to TTSX in my handloads for deer and elk rifles. All shot with the TSX were DRT and no bullets recovered. I know they expanded well due to internal damage and size of the exit wound. With either bullet I only had one mule deer take off after the shot and he went a ways spewing a blood trail that a blind man could have followed. There may be some better bullets out there but how can you argue with 100% successful performance? Happy Trails