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What were the very best of the WWII fighter planes put in the air by any country or in either theatre of operations? A couple coworkers were having discussion about Zero vs. Messerschmitt vs. P51 and Corsair, ect. It was an interesting discussion and after reading the Spitfire thread I became curious what the opinions of the knowledgeable Fire crew might be?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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ME-262. If Adolf had allowed it to be used strictly as a fighter, it would have been a game changer.
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The air bags in the Zeros didn't work all that well.
Last edited by mauserand9mm; 08/19/20.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Some apples and oranges.
ME-109 was early war, so was Zero.
P-51 was later as was Corsair. They were absolutely better planes.
Better German comparison would be Fw 190. An excellent machine.
The Japanese never really fielded any other fighters in enough numbers to be competitive.
It’s interesting to note that the Supermarine Spitfire was competitive all through the war.
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Campfire Ranger
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Some apples and oranges.
ME-109 was early war, so was Zero.
P-51 was later as was Corsair. They were absolutely better planes.
Better German comparison would be Fw 190. An excellent machine.
The Japanese never really fielded any other fighters in enough numbers to be competitive.
It’s interesting to note that the Supermarine Spitfire was competitive all through the war. I agree on many points. Especially reference the Japanese and the Zero. They shot their wad early on that one. The lack of self sealing tanks and the unwillingness to adapt cost them.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Campfire Oracle
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P-51D But the P-47 was a real brawler. It was much bigger and heavier than most fighter planes of the era but it was still very fast. Those who flew it long enough to learn tactics which took advantage of its strengths became very effective. The story of the 56th Fighter Group is interesting. http://www.donhollway.com/wolfpack/
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By the by, no mention so far, of the P-38 Lightning. A superb war bird, just bristling with guns.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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I think the P51 and the Corsair as they were still used going into the Korean War. However, the Messerschmitt 109 was still being used into the 1950's by Israel and some other nations. The Spitfire was better than the 109, even though it used the same engine as the P51, the P51 airframe made it better for speed and long range.
You could also say the Japanese Zero was the best at the beginning of the war in the Pacific.
Then you could say the ME-262 jet was the best toward the end of the war in Germany.
But for shear numbers that were produced, and being better than the existing rivals, the P51 and the Corsair. Just MHO.
I had an uncle who flew dive bombers in WWII in the Pacific for the Marines. Bombed islands being taken by marines across the Pacific. Had another uncle who was a tail gunner in a B-17 on bombing runs into Germany. He got the flu one time when he was to make a bombing run, and had a replacement. The replacement was killed. My father was a mechanic in the 3rd army keeping up with Patton. He had his best friends face blown on in the Battle of the Bulge. He said he was in Czechoslovakia when the war ended facing Russians. I wish I had spent more time asking them to tell war stories. Dad wouldn't watch a war movie and would go outside and smoke cigarettes if one was on.
My grandfather was in WWI but was stationed in various places in the US because he had flat feet. One time he had to take about 20 horses from Auburn University vet school to Ft. Benning, Ga, about 30 miles. My mother said they lived in Auburn in the country at that time, and my grandfather left early one morning riding one horse leading all the others. He delivered them, and they gave him a train ticket back to Auburn. He got home that same night. Today you can drive it in 30-45 minutes one way. My mother said she was born in a farmhouse on Donahue St across from where the football stadium is now. House is long gone, but my mother is still alive and is 88. She tells stories of growing up in the Depression and WWII.
Sorry to hijack the thread about the WWII era.
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And since I mentioned the plane with no mentions, I submit the Grumman Hellcat. The US war bird with the most kills.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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I think the P51 and the Corsair as they were still used going into the Korean War. However, the Messerschmitt 109 was still being used into the 1950's by Israel and some other nations. The Spitfire was better than the 109, even though it used the same engine as the P51, the P51 airframe made it better for speed and long range.
You could also say the Japanese Zero was the best at the beginning of the war in the Pacific.
Then you could say the ME-262 jet was the best toward the end of the war in Germany.
But for shear numbers that were produced, and being better than the existing rivals, the P51 and the Corsair. Just MHO.
I had an uncle who flew dive bombers in WWII in the Pacific for the Marines. Bombed islands being taken by marines across the Pacific. Had another uncle who was a tail gunner in a B-17 on bombing runs into Germany. He got the flu one time when he was to make a bombing run, and had a replacement. The replacement was killed. My father was a mechanic in the 3rd army keeping up with Patton. He had his best friends face blown on in the Battle of the Bulge. He said he was in Czechoslovakia when the war ended facing Russians. I wish I had spent more time asking them to tell war stories. Dad wouldn't watch a war movie and would go outside and smoke cigarettes if one was on.
My grandfather was in WWI but was stationed in various places in the US because he had flat feet. One time he had to take about 20 horses from Auburn University vet school to Ft. Benning, Ga, about 30 miles. My mother said they lived in Auburn in the country at that time, and my grandfather left early one morning riding one horse leading all the others. He delivered them, and they gave him a train ticket back to Auburn. He got home that same night. Today you can drive it in 30-45 minutes one way. My mother said she was born in a farmhouse on Donahue St across from where the football stadium is now. House is long gone, but my mother is still alive and is 88. She tells stories of growing up in the Depression and WWII.
Sorry to hijack the thread about the WWII era.
Hug your Momma's neck for me.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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The most important might be the T6 Texan and the Vultee Valiant trainers. Without trained pilots, the best planes are useless.
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Hellcat looked like the Wildcat, but was a far superior plane. Japanese pilots had little to fear from the Wildcat, but got an unpleasant surprise if they made the mistake of engaging the Hellcat.
Japan dominated the skies early in the Pacific war. Later on, not so much.
Be not weary in well doing.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My own favorite is the Fw 190, an efficiently elegant combination of form and function, they never did get it to perform well up high tho until they went with a whole different powerplant at the end of the war. Heavily armored versions excelled in the ground attack role on the Russian Front, they even hung a torpedo underneath them at one point for use against shipping.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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The Japanese lost a lot of veteran pilots at the Battle of Midway. They never recovered. Our production and training capability totally out classed them.
Ed
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I think you have to look by theater and time frame in the war. Technology moved so fast that comparing a 1941 aircraft and a 1945 aircraft are apples to oranges. The Zero in 1941 was dominant in the pacific, but it was fighting Buffalos and P40s with superior tactics. The Thach Weave and Chennaults hit and run tactics blunted the edge somewhat. The Hellcat and Corsair were game changers, as was the loss of a good chunk of the best Japanese pilots at Midway and Rabaul. The Lightning was particularly suited to the Pacific as well. The Japanese never really recovered, but had a good plane at the end of the war in the N1K1, but they had run out of pilots. In the Mediterranean, The Spitfire evened the odds when it started arriving in numbers in 42. Prior to that, the 109 was the best in theater, but ran into a numbers problem as resources dwindled. We’ve covered the ETO pretty well. However, in 42/early 43, the FW 190 was the better plane until the Spitfire IX showed up. No one mentions the Russian planes too often, but starting with the LA 5FN, the Germans started having a hard time, and the LA7 and 9 ended it. In all cases, the number of trained pilots made a huge difference. Adolf Galland once said if he could get a new pilot through three missions, his chances of survival were considerably improved, but few made it. Many of the lopsided kill ratios were achieved through superior numbers of well trained pilots with better tactics against half trained pilots in inferior aircraft. I’m thinking Hellcat/Zero, 109/I16/MiG 3, Mustang/109. The 262 could have been a game changer if it had been used correctly, but when it was, it was too little, too late.
If I had to pick the biggest game changer, though, I’d pick the Mustang. It allowed the bombing campaign to continue in Europe/Med, and challenged the Luftwaffe in its own skies. In addition, it had the legs to be effective in the Pacific.
Old70
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My grandfather was in WWI but was stationed in various places in the US because he had flat feet. One time he had to take about 20 horses from Auburn University vet school to Ft. Benning, Ga, about 30 miles. My mother said they lived in Auburn in the country at that time, and my grandfather left early one morning riding one horse leading all the others. He delivered them, and they gave him a train ticket back to Auburn. He got home that same night. Today you can drive it in 30-45 minutes one way. My mother said she was born in a farmhouse on Donahue St across from where the football stadium is now. House is long gone, but my mother is still alive and is 88. She tells stories of growing up in the Depression and WWII.
I know you got away from fighter planes, but I enjoyed the digression. As an Auburn graduate (72), I can only imagine what the campus looked like when your mother was born. I'll be thinking of her the next time I go to Jordan-Hare for a game....even though it looks like it'll be next year!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The Japanese lost a lot of veteran pilots at the Battle of Midway. They never recovered. Our production and training capability totally out classed them. Yep, and once the Allied pilots learned not to play up to the Zero’s strengths (maneuverability and climb) but to exploit its weaknesses (diving speed and the fact it’s controls became much heavier at higher speeds) the vaunted superiority evaporated.
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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P-51D But the P-47 was a real brawler. It was much bigger and heavier than most fighter planes of the era but it was still very fast. Those who flew it long enough to learn tactics which took advantage of its strengths became very effective. The story of the 56th Fighter Group is interesting. http://www.donhollway.com/wolfpack/What a great read! Thanks for posting that Bristoe. 👍 The modified 1911 that Sullivan (iirc) is holding looks like a modern day meme about uber tactical add-ons. 😁
�Politicians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.� �General George S. Patton, Jr.
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If Alexander Kartveli hadn't been of Soviet Georgian origin his name would probably be much more well known in America. He was the primary designer of both the P-47 and the A-10 Warthog,..both known for their survivability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kartveli
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I got to ask Adolf Galland just that question, in person at his house in Germany. Since he was Gerneral of the Luftwaffe Fighter wing, and commander of the first operational jet fighter squadron, and had over 100 air to air kills including the first with air to air rockets, that should qualfy him as an authority.
- Me 109 his obvious favorite
- Spitfire for lower altitude dogfighting. Could outturn the 109 and at lower altitudes attacking the 109 used as bomber escorts the speed advantage of the 109 was negated
- P-51 as long range fighter escort because of range - "flying gas can"
- "Never had any personal combat against P-38, but not nearly as maneuverable in dogfight as Spit, 109, P-51. They had one chance to ambush one of these other planes and then they were the hunted. Devistating in North Africa for air to ground"
- Me-262 was a completely different machine, superior to anything once airborne. Short range and 15 hour engine life along with frequent flameouts were issues and cost him many pilots.
There you go, from a man that that not only was there, was in charge!
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