Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Electrical help

kingston: Thank you for your help. I am going to do a deep dive on this tomorrow morning and will check the wires thoroughly. Unfortunately this is really old construction. So the metal boxes are a half inch behind the sheetrock and very small. Plus there is almost no slack in the wire.

Same circuit as the other outlets in the room plus a few more in other rooms. I'm assuming this since they were all dead when the fuse blew.
Thanks -tnscouter

Is the bare ground wound around the outer sheath and positioned in the box's clamp.

Do you have fuses or breakers? I saw you mention fuses.

Is the outer sheath black?

When I worked on this outlet I had the power off to the whole house. I had no idea which fuse controlled this and they aren't labled so this was easiest way.

All I did was pull the existing outlet forward. Cut off the 4 wires from the back of the outlet since it was a stab in. Stripped the wire the exact length and hooked them to the appropriate screws. There is no exposed wire on the screws because I'm very detailed with that. I then pulled the ground from the back of the box where it had been shoved, made a loop and hooked it to the ground. Wrapped the outlet with tape and reinstalled. Gave it power and the fuse blew.

The problem is almost surely in that last box, either where the wire intersects/enters the box/clamp or there's a flaw in the insulation between the clamp and the receptacle.

Someone in the past left that ground wire unconnected because of the same problem.

So this is likely what is wrong.......
I'm assuming that since you have 2 blacks, 2 whites, you also have 2 ground wires hooked to that outlet. This is called daisy chaining from one outlet to the next.

Do you have more outlets downstrem of this problem one??? If so, Somewhere downstream of this outlet there is a short between the black and the ground wire, leaving it open keeps it from going to ground to you main panel. This short could be inside another box, perhaps the black wire touching a metal box or it could be inside the wall where someone drove a nail or screw through the black and ground and shorted them together. Best find it.

This is the most likely explanation. A black wire is touching the metal box somehow (probably at the clamp) and the box is hot. You wouldn't notice with a plastic cover on the outlet, but with the ground connected and the outlet screwed to the box, you have a direct short to ground.

Jerry

Good point . Plus now, I see it’s “old” house so it could have originally been non ground wire type of system. Apparently, it now has a bare ground and could be grounded somewhere else beside through the panel. I’m not that familiar with retrofitting a ground wire setup into an old house . (That predates modern electrical system )

The outer sheath is black. I have fuses. The ground wire is inside the black sheath, is bare, and looped around the screw of the clamp with a piece soldered on that goes to the green ground screw.
Thanks -tnscouter

This is a pic of the outlet. I will loosen the clamp and check everything in the morning. Our TV is on this circuit and is being used so I have to wait awhile.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I will keep this updated.

Thanks -tnscouter

If the ground wire blows a fuse when it’s attached then metal box is hot and you could get zapped if you don’t fix it (the guy’s below are right).

Get a voltage detector pen from Home Depot and leave the ground off, but touch it to the metal outlet box - it will tell you it’s hot.
I mean this one - https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/electrical-testers/non-contact-voltage-tester-pen-50-1000-volts

If it were me I would solve if it’s the outlet or the wiring in the conduit first - by using the voltage detection pen with the outlet removed (and wires capped), if you don’t have the pen, then touch the ground wire to the metal box... if that blows a fuse you have a short between the hot side has (black wire), and the conduit itself...

If that’s the case fix it - it’s dangerous ...

Depending on if it’s a metal box in a wall, or in the basement the fix is different... let me know and I’ll tell you how to tackle it the way I’ve found best.




So - yep what they said with a way to check it.

Disregard

I just saw the picture you posted.

the ground is already touching the box so if it’s not blowing a fuse while the outlet is disconnected, and the wires are capped the box is not hot...

That would mean - when you push the outlet in the ground wires are making contact with the hot side of the outlet.
I push the ground wires to the back and down with the ground wire pointing out the bottom of the box, and attach it last so that the ground wires move the least.


The other thing I’ve run into is that there is a cut in the black wires, and when I put the outlet in the ground wire makes contact with that cut.. and pop.. there goes the breaker...

So it’s one of those 2.. or of course you have a bad outlet... (rare)

I just saw the box is grounded. See what you have between everything when you have it all hooked up with the ground off the outlet.

Should be line Voltage from:
Hot to ground
Hot to neutral
Hot to box (if box is grounded)

No voltage from
Neutral to ground
Neutral to box
Ground to box

With breaker off/fuse out:
Should be Continuity from
Box to ground (assuming box grounded)
Neutral to box (assuming box grounded)
Neutral to ground

No continuity from
Box to hot
Hot to ground
Hot to neutral

BTW you also need outlet spacers given your box is sunk back behind the dry wall.

Here is what they are -
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ideal-Spacers-25-Pack-172451L/202937111

Here is how to use them
https://youtu.be/RYGkKRKUcws

Basically they go on the mounting screw behind the outlet and support the outlet against the box so the outlet can be aligned with the wall...

I rehab ALOT of elec. stuff - this is one they should tell folks, but don’t.

Spotshooter: I'm already good on the spacers. Replaced a few outlets in this house already and I like them perfect. Also used the voltage detector pen. Neither the ground nor the box are hot but the entire outlet is. The metal ears, all four slots and both sides. I took the cover off of one of the others I replaced and only the small slots and black side lit up.

Any thoughts?

That is a bad outlet 1000%

If you are putting the hot wire on and the mounting ears light up it’s got an internal short...

If there was a short between hot and neutral it would have blown a fuse straight way when you contented those (hot and neutral) to the outlet so it’s only the hot side that’s shorted to ground.

I would break it open and look for a mechanical short - they only cost a few bucks, and you will have to replace it anyway.

This^^^^^

IF Romex - it's possible there is a nail driven between the black and bare wires - somewhere in that run - or, more probably, the next.
Do down-line outlets show a ground connection?

I do believe the OP should have been a plumber, how is your Fire Insurance?