I researched this issue a fair bit for my .444 and decided on a 300gr A-Frame. I've still not killed anything with this bullet but it bids fair to do well. They post pics on their site showing expansion at various velocities.
What you want is a Hardcast flat nosed bullet with a .280 to .350 meplat. My personal favorite in my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 is a 480 grain bullet out of a Lyman 457121PH mold over 38.5 grains of 3031. Low recoil and cycles through the Marlin like it is greased. It will shoot through and through any bear in Alaska from any angle. I have taken buffalo, elk, wildebeast, zebra and a lot of smaller animals with this bullet out of a 45-70 and have yet to recover a bullet. This bullet is a stone cold , accurate killer at the 1350 fps velocity of this load. As my PH in South Africa said, that load "kills them DEAD!"
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a pass-through.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
The 400 Speer is soft as chewing gum, it will expand wide at 1900fps. The 350 Swift is designed for 45/70 speeds and will expand at any reasonable range. Up close the front section may lose some weight but not much. The 350 Hornady will also expand at 45/70 speeds, it’s billed as a 458 bullet but I’ve had it come apart at 458 speeds.
I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity? If that’s what you mean you have no need to worry, the faster a bullet is traveling when it hits the quicker and wider it will expand. If that’s not what you meant then disregard as I’m just confused.
(I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity?) Yes, I was questioning expansion and it's merits on killing power. Strictly, a self defense situation I'm referring to. Bigger holes causing more damage.
I really like the A frames, do they carry a 400 grain for the .458? Heard something about lever-action bullets from one of these company's. I have envisioned a charging bear within 30 yards and gave some serious thought as how bullet performance would come into play. Quick expanding, tough, heavy bullets.
Like 1 minute mentioned, "Just use a 405 Gov slug". I believe he was speaking of Remington bullets.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
(I’m a little confused by your concern of bullets not expanding in time? Are you indicating you’re worried the bullets will zip through without having a chance to open due to the close range and higher velocity?) Yes, I was questioning expansion and it's merits on killing power. Strictly, a self defense situation I'm referring to. Bigger holes causing more damage.
I really like the A frames, do they carry a 400 grain for the .458? Heard something about lever-action bullets from one of these company's. I have envisioned a charging bear within 30 yards and gave some serious thought as how bullet performance would come into play. Quick expanding, tough, heavy bullets.
Like 1 minute mentioned, "Just use a 405 Gov slug". I believe he was speaking of Remington bullets.
I don’t think the 400 Swift will cycle through a Marlin, nose is too long. The 350 was designed for the 45/70 and has a short nose. Kodiak was about the only company making a really tough 400 for the 45/70 but now he’s passed and I don’t know if anyone is going to pick up the business. The old heavy jacket Barnes Original was a fairly stout bullet but who knows if you can find some.
Before he passed Karl Melkie who was the owner of Alaska Bullet Works told me the guides in Alaska preferred the 405 grain version of his bonded 45-70 bullet. That and his 350 grain version featured heavy jackets and have a good reputation in Alaska. Alas, they are no longer being made.
If I was looking for a good 45-70 bullet for elk, moose, bison and bears I would look at the 405 grain Woodleigh, Barnes original or 350 grain Swift A Frame. There are some smaller custom bullet makers such as North Fork, Cutting Edge, etc. Others prefer hard cast heavies, which definitely penetrate, I am just not experienced with them and wonder about their permanent wound channel.
My 45-70 is a customized Marlin 1895 that weighs about 7.5 pounds and kicks harder then any mule!
Yes, I have a few Cast Performance bullets, they seem hard as a rock though. Within close quarters they would pass right through I think with the animal still charging, unless a head shot was present.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a pass-through.
Goin' with Sitka deer on this one.
380gr WFN copper solids and 405-420gr WFN hardcast are my choices for my six .45-70s. I do alternate 305 gr Lehigh Penetrators in the mix.
Medium velocity is recommended by most .45-70 users.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
The Barnes Buster is a hard cast flat nose with a jacket. It’s not made to expand. Cheaper to go with cast unless you absolutely cannot get your rifle to shoot them.
What you want is a Hardcast flat nosed bullet with a .280 to .350 meplat. My personal favorite in my Marlin Cowboy 45-70 is a 480 grain bullet out of a Lyman 457121PH mold over 38.5 grains of 3031. Low recoil and cycles through the Marlin like it is greased. It will shoot through and through any bear in Alaska from any angle. I have taken buffalo, elk, wildebeast, zebra and a lot of smaller animals with this bullet out of a 45-70 and have yet to recover a bullet. This bullet is a stone cold , accurate killer at the 1350 fps velocity of this load. As my PH in South Africa said, that load "kills them DEAD!"
Sounds like a performer.
Last edited by Adk_BackCountry; 08/27/20.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Timely thread. I just picked up a box of Swift factory 45-70 ammo with the 350 A Frame. I hope I never find out how well they work for brown bear defense. They are for use in a shared rifle, with some of the users not up for the recoil of the hottest loads. I see Buffalo Bore loads a 430 hard cast at 1550 and considered that one as well. I'll happily leave the bears alone if they will agree to the same.
Easy peasy. 405 grain Woodleigh. 1) They are bonded so cling together 2) The lead and copper are brittle enough to lose some weight thus NOT maintaining a huge mushroom that limits penetration. This gives them a great combination of expansion, wound channel and penetration. At the velocities we are talking about the 350 grain Hornady flatnose with interlock is also a winner. The old 300 Nosler Partition which has been discontinued was truly amazing but now long gone. I made a video on this topic 4 years ago if you are interested. I have also testted the 400 Speer and it is really soft and the enormous expansion reduced penetration. I have also tested 440 grain Hard Cast bullets with a wide meplat and while they penetrate through a huge amount of tissue the wound channel is quite a bit less.
Good points along with research , North. I have used the 350 Hornady for years , along with a supply of Hawk 400 gr FP and Kodiak 400 FPs. They perform in my pre-war Model 71 450 Alaskan. The Kodiaks like the Woodleighs are bonded core.
However, for reduced velocity-the Hawk 350-400 perform very well indeed. They were designed to perform well below max velocity in older rifles like the 1876-1886 Winchesters. The Hawk performance at 1500 FPS with a 350-400 458-FP is amazing.
The 1895 Marlin is not my first choice LA rifle, but my 22 in version with no extra safeties is a tough rifle-and not for sale. It will do the job almost as well as the original smokeless 45-70 - 1886 -or 450 Alaskan Model 71.
Last edited by 450Fuller; 08/30/20.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena-not the critic"-T. Roosevelt There are no atheists in fox holes or in the open doors of a para's aircraft.....
Timely thread. I just picked up a box of Swift factory 45-70 ammo with the 350 A Frame. I hope I never find out how well they work for brown bear defense. They are for use in a shared rifle, with some of the users not up for the recoil of the hottest loads. I see Buffalo Bore loads a 430 hard cast at 1550 and considered that one as well. I'll happily leave the bears alone if they will agree to the same.
I agree.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
Easy peasy. 405 grain Woodleigh. 1) They are bonded so cling together 2) The lead and copper are brittle enough to lose some weight thus NOT maintaining a huge mushroom that limits penetration. This gives them a great combination of expansion, wound channel and penetration. At the velocities we are talking about the 350 grain Hornady flatnose with interlock is also a winner. The old 300 Nosler Partition which has been discontinued was truly amazing but now long gone. I made a video on this topic 4 years ago if you are interested. I have also testted the 400 Speer and it is really soft and the enormous expansion reduced penetration. I have also tested 440 grain Hard Cast bullets with a wide meplat and while they penetrate through a huge amount of tissue the wound channel is quite a bit less.
I know nothing about these loads but what has worked for me for 50 years in Alaska is as above. If they don’t try to put big ugly holes in me, I won’t them. It’s been win win all around. So far.
I can tell you from close personal experience that 30yds would be a luxury for a bear encounter. My last one was five yards when I saw the bear. I was on my knees skinning an elk when we met up and my rifle was five yards in the opposite direction. My encounters on Afognak and Kodiak were way less than 30yds. No time to be scared as there is literally...no time.
Velocity is not much of an option for my 18" Model 94 in .450 Marlin. They all go slow. They all kick the crap out of the shooter in a light, handy package despite the integrated brake and this is my least favorite range gun. My suggestion is to consider a large and solid bullet for bear country. I had a particularly bad experience with Hornady 350gr interlock factory ammo--multiple shots with jacket separation from the lead core. I would have preferred a large, straight wound channel as shot placement was spot-on. Since then I switched to Kodiak Bonded bullets and hard cast lead. No great stories on bullet performance as I have yet to use them on game.
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
Low velocity for 450 Marlin/45-70 Govt standards, or low velocity as compared to more contemporary rounds? Is this the same rifle you plan to carry for moose/caribou or a separate rifle only to be carried when packing meat out?
I used the 325 flex tip on a big bull moose and it worked fine, but don't think that's the most appropriate for bear defense. I'd at least consider the 405 grain Woodleigh. They make several heavier bullets, more designed for the .458 Win that may be of interest too. Those other bullets may be designed for common twists in .458 Win rifles (as opposed to slower twisted 450/45-70 lever rifles) though...I'm not sure about that.
Try a 402gr Shock Hammer. The gapping hollowpoint will likely open at any reasonable impact velocity and the core (90%) will pound through a lot of muscle. They are also available in 260gr and 300gr.
Try a 402gr Shock Hammer. The gapping hollowpoint will likely open at any reasonable impact velocity and the core (90%) will pound through a lot of muscle. They are also available in 260gr and 300gr.
Charlie-NY, The name says it all.
T_Inman,
Low velocity for 450 Marlin/45-70 Govt standards, or low velocity as compared to more contemporary rounds? (Lower velocity than the standard rounds , my 1900 fps might be considered high for the 420 grain Cast Performance?
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
I can tell you from close personal experience that 30yds would be a luxury for a bear encounter. My last one was five yards when I saw the bear. I was on my knees skinning an elk when we met up and my rifle was five yards in the opposite direction. My encounters on Afognak and Kodiak were way less than 30yds. No time to be scared as there is literally...no time.
Velocity is not much of an option for my 18" Model 94 in .450 Marlin. They all go slow. They all kick the crap out of the shooter in a light, handy package despite the integrated brake and this is my least favorite range gun. My suggestion is to consider a large and solid bullet for bear country. I had a particularly bad experience with Hornady 350gr interlock factory ammo--multiple shots with jacket separation from the lead core. I would have preferred a large, straight wound channel as shot placement was spot-on. Since then I switched to Kodiak Bonded bullets and hard cast lead. No great stories on bullet performance as I have yet to use them on game.
5 yards must of been chilling. When we might be in the thick stuff I would be on my guard like no-other, one in the chamber ready to go. I have a friend that was attacked by a brown while salmon fishing over there, he is alive to say luckily. The bear apparently had a kill near-by the authorities say. Uncertain as to if the bear was destroyed.
T_Inman
I guess I would plan to hunt with the rifle as well as carry for anytime protection if that makes any sense? I have a bolt action 300 Winchester Mag I would like to try on Moose though. Maybe across some marshy flats or open areas, but that is another thread.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
What velocity are you using with those 300s?
Right at 2000 fps. The 444 is an under appreciated cartridge. In my experience it will do anything the 45/70 will do with less recoil, and it shoots flatter.
The hard cast is an option, but I have no field experience with these. I have a box of Cast Performance in 420 gr. but again, everything is theoretical. Looking for some field instances if any? At 1900 fps starting point I don't think the A frame's would expand much at any threatening range in time? Would like to start at 400 grain at least. Before anyone tells me to use a 12 gauge slug, my choice is already the guide-gun, why?, because I already have it.
I use a 350 grain hardcast from an NOE ranchndog style mold in my 45/70. Never used it on bear, but I have used a 300 grain hardcast in my 444 marlin, again from an NOE ranchndog style mold in a couple of DLP situations with grizzly. Performance is about as good as it gets in my book. You will have two holes, that I can promise you.
What velocity are you using with those 300s?
Right at 2000 fps. The 444 is an under appreciated cartridge. In my experience it will do anything the 45/70 will do with less recoil, and it shoots flatter.
I agree. I had a fairly light taper Marlin TK .30-30 rebored and find I get .45-70-like performance in a handier rifle. I've used a 300gr WFN on deer and now have some A-Frames to try. I may just go back to the cast bullets since there was nothing wrong with the wound channels I was getting with those.
I've had three or four Marlin .45-70s before. I like what they do on game, but found the bulk of the forearms and barrels unnecessary for my purposes. The 1895CBA with the 18" octagon barrel looks to have some potential but the one I handled in a store was rough and the wood was gappy. In the end I'm pleased with my .444
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
What TheKid says about the 400 grain Speer is true but if you want low velocity and expansion, it may indeed be a good choice. Back when I had a SS Marlin Guide Gun my load of choice was the 400 grain speer, 52 grains of H4895, WW brass, and Fed 210 primers. It was good for 0.6 inches at 100 yards for 3 shots. The only thing I ever shot with it was a deer. Bullet was not recovered. It was broadside, knocked the aorta off the heart. The exit was pretty small .. not sure how much it expanded, but that's a pretty dang soft target.
Tom
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Looking for a good expanding bullet at low velocity for bear protection. 400 grain range.
What TheKid says about the 400 grain Speer is true but if you want low velocity and expansion, it may indeed be a good choice. Back when I had a SS Marlin Guide Gun my load of choice was the 400 grain speer, 52 grains of H4895, WW brass, and Fed 210 primers. It was good for 0.6 inches at 100 yards for 3 shots. The only thing I ever shot with it was a deer. Bullet was not recovered. It was broadside, knocked the aorta off the heart. The exit was pretty small .. not sure how much it expanded, but that's a pretty dang soft target.
Tom
I might try some on wet phone books. If I can get my hands on some Barnes originals I will give those a try too. In the end you just never know anyway, it is all theory until it's happening. I just don't want it to happen.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go
I've got a Marlin XLR in 45-70 and shot the Garrett 420gr Hammerheads +p for almost 9 years, killed exactly 1 moose with it at 25 yards, it was a complete pass through and the bull walked no more than 20 yards. I really liked the Garrett HH's but at $80 per box plus shipping they just got a little to expensive so I switched to the HSC 430gr Bear Loads, they shoot well in my rifle but the true test will be when I shoot either a moose or a grizz, hopefully sometime next week.
Just packed out the lady's caribou she shot with a 350 grain swift. That thing opened up a 2.5 inch hole out of that caribou. Immediate expansion. She didn't want to bust brush with her oberndorf 9.3, so took my ugly scabbard lever gun. Deadly bullets. I second the A-frames
Easy peasy. 405 grain Woodleigh. 1) They are bonded so cling together 2) The lead and copper are brittle enough to lose some weight thus NOT maintaining a huge mushroom that limits penetration. This gives them a great combination of expansion, wound channel and penetration. At the velocities we are talking about the 350 grain Hornady flatnose with interlock is also a winner. The old 300 Nosler Partition which has been discontinued was truly amazing but now long gone. I made a video on this topic 4 years ago if you are interested. I have also testted the 400 Speer and it is really soft and the enormous expansion reduced penetration. I have also tested 440 grain Hard Cast bullets with a wide meplat and while they penetrate through a huge amount of tissue the wound channel is quite a bit less.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/0YGjyjw/Barnes-400-grain.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/88jRQjp/IM000073-JPG.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/8712S66/Uberti-1886-1.jpg)
