Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

With apologies to mikeh416Rigby for having inadvertently hijacked his thread.....
When I started working up loads for my .458 Winchester Magnum,several campfire members advised that I try using Remington 405 grain flatpoints for practice.These bullets tend to fly usefully close to 450 and 500 grain .458 bullets out to 100 yds to be effective and inexpensive substitutes for that purpose.They also tend to be amazingly accurate in many .458 rifles.
This particular projectile was actually developed for the 45/70,and campfire members have used them to effectively dispatch animals as big and hardy as Elk and American Bison.Periodically they can be bought from Midway,and I assume others,in bulk for 18 1/2 cents apiece.Over the course of firing hundreds of rounds,that could add up to considerable savings compared to the various "premium" bullets so enthusiastically endorsed by so many.
In a rather extensive article in the most recent (August 2007) Handloader magazine,Brian Pearce discusses his use of this and similar bullets and he found them to work quite well against several species of large game in both North America and Africa,including cape buffalo.
It seems to me that the 45/70 with 405 gr bullets and the ubiquitous 1895 Marlin lever action chambered in 45/70 have been completely ignored on the campfire when this kind of hunting is discussed.Many campfire members apparently already have these rifles.The projectiles ,in many cases,are drastically less expensive than those most promoted,denegrated,and/or compared by posters on the campfire.
I was wondering why this is so,other than convention,conceit,or aesthetics of the correspondents involved.It occurs to me that their reasoning might be very instructive,and hopefully might provoke some entertaining conversation and enlightenment.
Again,this is essentially a three part question:
1)Is the 1895 Marlin and it's ilk a viable weapon for dangerous/big game hunting?Why or why not?
2) Is the 45/70 a viable cartridge for dangerous game hunting ? Why or why not?
3) Are projectiles like the Remington Softnose Flatpoint and Corbon Solid Flatpoint 405 gr. bullets viable for these purposes in the 45/70 or .458 Winchester etc.Why or why not?
It should also be noted that Mr. Pearce has stated flatly that driving these bullets to 2000 or perhaps a bit higher fps range is both easilly and safely accomplished.

Steve I think you are on to something. Before I purchased my .416, I was going through the safe with an acquaintance of mine who has killed a lot of buff. He was looking at my 1895 .405 and said "you know you could use this for buffalo". He also said it would be a minimal cartridge for the job. I believe Larry Porterfield (sp?) who owns Midway has taken buff with an 1895 .405. Ballisticly, these loads are very close to the 450/400, which no one questions.

I have not killed a buffalo and am certainly not any kind of expert. However, I do know it has been done and I do think Aussiegunwriter's comment on another thread regarding fashion statements has some validity. This being said, I have chosen a .416 for my upcoming hunt, mostly because I wanted one.

You did the right thing in getting a 416 Rigby/Rem (?) for your buffalo hunt, and don't even consider a 45-70. You are hunting something that can kill you, why use a popgun? The 45-70 isn't up to the task, and its proponents are irresponsible, IMO.

I guess that's pretty much my point.Once I committed to this buff hunt I started looking for the same rifle I have now in .458 Win.,but what I really wanted was a .416 Rigby.The one I wound up with was the only one available locally,and the deal was just too good to pass up.
They both fill that "Romance" quotient,both being classic African cartridges housed in a classic DGR. ......But I did already have those two 45/70s just sitting in the safe.....and frankly,nothing I read here indicated that those would do.I'm not saying I wouldn't have taken this route anyway,and certainly I knew enough to make the decision myself.Nevertheless,the "culture" as it were,of hunters of exotic big game does tend to steer us in a certain direction.

Read the article.There are four levels of loading data for the 45/70....18K psi (basically factory and black powder loading),23K psi,35-38k,and 52K.....the last for sure is hardly a popgun.

the thing that makes me most leery of using the Marlin on dangerous game is not the power level of a warm loaded 45-70 but the fact that Aussiegunwriter(i believe, sorry if im confused) stated that he has had firing pins bust with no warning on a couple(several?). after seeing the kinda penetration that even light loaded 405 grainers out of the 45-70 can accomplish.......i would say the Buffalo Bore and Garrett type loads should work fine on buff's, if you can shoot them well in those light guide guns.....

People will say that any push feed bolt action rifle is not suitable for dangerous game, because it cannot be reliably fed from any angle from vertical. But a Marlin lever action rifle cannot either, not even close.

Steve--The 45-70 will work just fine on anything over there, if you use the right load and bullet. The 405 grain bullets are too light to deliver the kind of penetration the 45-70 is capable of. You need a bullet of 500 to 540 grains and a velocity of 1550 fps or a bit less to achieve maximum penetration.

Check out Randy Garrett's website to find out why.

Now. I just returned from South Africa in mid April, hunting plains game with African Bushveld Safaris. I took seven good animals. Two kudu, a black wildebeast, a blue wildebeast, a gemsbok, a springbok, and an impala. I used a Shiloh Sharps 45-110 with traditional cast lead bullets and Goex black powder pushing 511 and 527 grain bullets from 1367 to 1380 fps.

One kudu was taken at 302 yards and knocked off his feet, the blue wildebeast was knocked down at 312 yards, and the springbok was put down at 325 yards. The gemsbok went straight down at the shot. ALL the shots fired gave complete pass through, and the Sharps broke both of the the black wildebeasts' shoulders from 225 yards and exited. A finishing shot inboard of his left ham exited his chest, passing through him lengthwise in the process. The Sharps and its black powder load shot through something over 60 inches of black wildebeast.

These bullets all had round noses, were cast at 30-1, and driven by Goex 2f black powder. NOT A SINGLE BULLET WAS RECOVERED FROM ANY ANIMAL. These velocities are easily reached by a 45-70 using smokeless powder. The key is to use a bullet that weighs 500 grains or better. There are bullet designs that have a long base and a short nose in this weight range that will cycle through your lever gun. The 405 grain bullets will not give this kind of penetration.

My two professional hunters were impressed to the extent that they want to see this rifle and load work on Cape Buffalo, as they are absolutely convinced that it will do the job. I have booked a hunt with two of my friends for May of 2008. The rifle has already shot all the way through an American Bison, knocking him off his feet. I think I can get all the way through the shoulders on a Cape Buffalo as well. Come May, I plan to find out. For what it's worth, I have all of this on DVD. Hope this helps.

I don't doubt anything you've said about your experience with these heavier cast bullets.Yet there is evidence out there that those 405s have in fact done a pretty good job of penetrating quite well.To whit:Brian Pearce having shot completely through a cape buff at the shoulders,and then having the pass through continue on to go through a cape buff cow on the other side,with the bullet winding up under the hide on the off side.Another 405 having gone almost completely through the bull almost full length from rear to front.These were both Cor-Bon 405 PEN solid bullets @ 1800 fps out of an 1895 Marlin.
I hope MoccasinJoe1 pipes in.He put one of the Remington 405 soft point flat points through both shoulders of a North American Bison,I believe also @1800 fps.He used a Harrington and Richardson Buffalo Classic I believe,which is essentially a single shot similar to the NEF Partner type guns.
I don't doubt that the longer heavier bullets will probably penetrate even better,it just seems that these 405 gr. flatpoints shouldn't be dismissed quite so easilly.

Why does this 45-70 stuff keep coming up. A 45-70 simply isn't as good for buffalo or other dangerous game as a real cartridge designed for African game. See the link for proof.

http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Did anyone read the article about Olsa Johnson and How she droped a couple of Cape Buffalo with an 1895 Winchester in 405 and turned The charging herd and saved her husband as he filmed the action out front.She shot many Cape as well as other species of game to feed the large photographic Safaria crew.... She didn't have or use a so called adequate DGR and she never seemed to have a problem.......I guess she could hit fairly well... Ross Seyfried had no trouble taking a Cape with a heavy loaded 45 Colt... I asked him about it just yesterday and he stated that it worked just fine...........

This is a perfect answer to a different question.I doubt anyone seriuosly thinks that the 45/70 is more powerful than the traditional African cartridges we are talking about.
The question is,is the 45/70 powerful enough ? Can the 405 gr. flatpoint bullets in a 45/70 (at maximum pressures ie loaded at 52,000 psi,not 1873 Springfield pressures)do the job consistently on animals like Cape Buff ? Can a firearm like the 1895 Marlin be safely and reliably be used to do this ? Not just opinion based on hearsay or "it seems logical" but on verifiable fact?
No one here doubts that a .300 Winchester Mag will throw a given 180 gr. bullet faster than a .308 winchester will.If the bullet is up to the velocity,it will penetrate better from the .300 Mag than it will from the .308 .But ,out to 200 yds. at least , on deer,is it necessary? The old question still arises,how dead is dead ?
Obviously there are inherent dangers in facing dangerous game.The question is,will the cartridges and bullets in question get the job done ? If penetration is really what kills,as opposed to energy,and these combos will infact penetrate one of these animals completely,then what else is needed ?Obviously the 45/70 with 405 gr. bullets can be made to deliver more energy than some of the "accepted" African cartridges,the 9.3 x62,64,72,74 all come immediately to mind,the 450/400 might well be another (in it's traditional loadings).The evidence seems to show that the penetration is there.There are dozens ,if not hundreds of members of this board who can attest that the accuracy is there in spades.Ditto for the strength and reliability of the firearm itself,assuming it is well maintained,and the loads have been crafted and tested with due diligence.
I find it hard to believe any serious person here would question the strength of the reworked Siamese Mauser for these purposes.The same caveats to make sure that any other cartridge in a Mauser action will feed properly would apply to these loads in a Siames Mauser.I know I have personally driven 405 gr. bullets from my Siamese Mauser well into the 1900-2000 fps category,with no discernable pressure signs.I did this perhaps 30 years ago,there are better powders available now.I have not ever used these combos on game.

If you look at SD, it becomes apparent that the .405 gr .45-70 bullet at about .27 is quite a bit lower than the preferred .300 (or 500 gr) level for the big nasty critters. The smaller diameter bullets you mention make the .3 SD too. The reason to consider it is solid bullets with that SD can be counted on to penetrate in a straight line.

People have shot and killed Cape buff with the .45-70, but I don't think any of the devotees consider it to be proper for all situations. I remember the feeling after shooting a .375"/300 gr Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H behind the shoulder of a big bull, and seeing no reaction. This animal did die, but it took a while.

Also folks should read Ross' Handloader article (I think he titled it Theory of Relativity) on shooting buff with heavy lead revolver bullets. There is definitely more to that story.

jim

Steve1--

Personally, I don't understand the point here and please don't read that as a criticsm. And I'll also add I've never killed a buff but hope to some day. The 45-70 has killed buff and no doubt will again as have many lesser cartridges including the 45 colt mentioned. But why try? At some point it falls into the realm of being a gimmick.

American buff, yes, but cape buff, no. For me anyway. When you have an animal that not only has the size and toughness they do but in addition has the temperament of vindictiveness when hurt, that when things don't go well may come for you or wait for you and try to kill you why would you not spring for the armament conventional wisdom says is appropriate for the worst scene scenario?

You are spending ~ 6 to 10k to get over there to hunt one and there are any number of appropriate rifle-scope combo's for under 1k especially if you are a right-hander which you probably are. Scrimping here seems to me to be "penny wise, pound foolish". It is not a matter of "can it do it" (the 45-70). We know it can but is it wise?

And I love my Guide gun in 45-70.

Gdv

The only thing missing from that video was a 1895 Marlin with a few Hammerheads for an actual "VS" comparison.... (missed an opportunity to put all this so called BS to bed)...........
Tom

Osa Johnson with Rhino
Thomas Bland double rifle in .470 Nitro Express

Martin and Osa Johnson had three Thomas Bland .470 NE double rifles in their rifle battery during their stay at Lake Paradise in the 1920s. (Plus other rifles, including three Model 1895 Winchesters in .405 Winchester, two bolt action rifles in .404 Jeffery, and one in .505 Gibbs.)
Source: I Married Adventure by Osa Johnson, Copyright 1940.

The Martin and Osa Johnson Safari Museum web site:
http://www.safarimuseum.com/

-Bob F.

BFaucett, you know where to find all of the good write ups at a moments notice..........

jwp475,

Thanks! I try to help out when I can. Here's a photo just for you:



Osa Johnson with Winchester Model 1895 in .405 Winchester

Cheers!
-Bob F.

T Pearce--There is a good chance they did try the 1895 Marlin in 45-70 and some 540 grain Garrett Hammerheads. If so, that is probably why you don't see them in that particular video. I frankly would like to see a public head to head comparison to clear the air one way or the other. It has already been demonstrated that the 45-70 Garrett loadings will deliver more penetration than a number of the commonly used DG loads and calibers. This is not really about which cartridge is the most powerful, rather it is about whether the right load in a 45-70 is safe and adequate. My take is if a 375 or a 416 is enough, there is no reason that the 45-70 loaded correctly should not be used.

All,
I think it was JB that did an Energy comparison of various calibers years ago using a dirt filled box on top a sawhorse.
The numbers on the charts VS target reaction was quite disappointing. IIRC, It took a super thumper just to knock some of the fill out of the thing.
Understanding that limits have to be set. How would you have set them?
Tom