Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Those bullets are hard cast deisigned for minimal expansion. The test media was a layer of dry vinyl coat to simulate bone followed by dampened vinyl coat to simulate muscle tissue. The 550gr Crater (JBY) was traveling right at 1500fps, the 420 Crater Lite was traveling 1765fps, the 460 CPB was traveling 1700fps and the 405 Magnus was traveling 1820fps. This media is super tough and is very hard on bullets. Several of the tests I have run involved shooting into super tough materials to test the structural integrity of bullets. So far the toughest expanding bullet I have tested is the .416 400gr Nosler Partition and the toughest solid is the .416 400gr Hornady encapsolated solid. Fact of the matter is that the slower less powerful cartridges are never totaly out of the picture and it has been proven over and over that they work better than they are supposed to. Common sense should come into play however. Anyone that doesn't shoot cartridges such as the .375 H&H and up doesn't realize that they do deliver impact damage directly proportionate to their relative kinetic energy.

In a similar discussion on another forum I posted the following:

People that don't shoot these things (.375,.416s and .458) on a regular basis have a hard time understanding. This certainly isn't saying the 45-70 is not adequate for the chores it is being used for now because we know that it is. What I see from wasting more powder and bullets than most people shoot in a lifetime is areas where the performance between the .375 and 45-70 overlap each other. Same thing between both and the .416,.458 and so forth. I still haven't solved the .416 400gr outpenetrating everything else yet but I feel there is a logical explanation. When I started this post my intent was to show that a living animal can damage a premium bullet as much as tough media. The difference being the bullet traveled farther in the water buff than in the dry vinyl coat thus exposing itself to abuse for a longer period of time. I know people commonly say that since animals contain moisture the wet media is more like real life but look at the bullets and note that the dry media bullet more closely resembles the bullet shot into the water buffalo. Cape and water buff are both designed by nature to destroy bullets. When you have hide up to an inch thick over some of the densest muscle on earth wrapped around big tough bones something has to give on impact. Physics are not really defied. They are mis-used. I have been studying some real kills and talked to several PH's about buffalo kills and the bullets used to make them. One thing I have learned from the gents that have had people carry Randy Garrett's ammo is that it works very well. Now how can it be that with lower kinetic energy and less matter displacement? As I have stated before on other posts in order to kill something you have to destroy what makes it live. Tissue destruction is a product of kinetic energy being applied to the tissue. Hydraulic expansion, blunt force trauma and shape cutting are all vehicles for this destructive force. When a premium expanding bullet at a realitively high velocity penitrates tissue it uses hydraulic expansion to displace matter. When a cast bullet with a large meplat travels through the same tissue it cuts it and apllies blunt force trauma. Randy Garrett suggests hitting bone such as shoulders to speed the process up. In this case the bone spray also becomes part of the destructive mass that displaces tissue. No mystery and no defied physics. Randy has enough experience to know what will happen when you send a big chunk of very tough lead where he tells you to. It has been proven over and over. In one instance that I have posted about before a hunter on a water buff that the ph said weighed about 2000lbs broke nervous and gut shot the bull. Thats right. GUT SHOT as in the stomach contents that have been known to stop solids from some pretty big boomers but the Hammerhead completely penetrated the big pile of guts. The ph told me that after he saw what the bullet did he had complete confidence in the loads used by the hunter. Once again no mystery. the bullet was cutting its way through the big critter. Since it didn't have to give up any more energy to cause hydraulic displacement it contiunued to travel through the buff. Stay tuned. reflex264

Reflex,

The reason for the results you note are that the round nose bullet at higher velocity tears a large wad of wet paper and continues to carry this ever increasing, in weight and diameter, large wad as it penetrates. This has the effect of increasing "bullet" diameter while decreasing sectional density.

The slower flat nose does not tear a similar ever growing wad.

With two similar solid projectiles, the faster solid projectile will always out penetrate the slower solid projectile in game - the only relevant medium. I haven't tried a flat nose solid at good velocity, say 2190fps, vs a similar flat nose solid at, say 1400fps in the irrelavant wet newsprint medium, but I wonder what the results will be.

There is no doubt in my mind that flat nose solids penetrate game better than round nose solids. But the question remains whether they do so because the tend not to tumble even after loosing speed as they penetrate. Round nose solids have a strong tendency to tumble after they have lost substantial speed as they penetrate. Fortunately, the tumbling begins after substantial penetration, but once it begins, the subsequent penetration is very limited.

JPK

And so it seems!

Reflex,

In repliy to your last post, which I did not see when I posted above, I too believe that flat nose "solids" or non expanding bullets improve penetration over round nose non expanding bullets. My test in elephants and cape buffalo point to about a 40% improvement. I am a fan of solids for cape buffalo too, but that may be the result of hunting with PH's who believe in solids only and so I have had opportunity to see them work. A cape buffalo dies very quickly when hit with a well placed solid from a large bore rifle.

If you want to turn your testing upside down, try shooting North Fork or GS Custom flat nose solids out of the 375H&H, 416 Rigby or Remington or 458wm or Lott.

If you look at the sectional density of the 400 or 410gr 416 bullets and at the velocity that you are launching them at you will see why they penetrate. You would need a 500gr .458" bullet launched at the same speed to approximate the same performance. Even a Lott can't do that, but a 450 Rigby or 460 Whby can. Alternatively, you would need to launch a 350gr or so 375 bullet at the same velocity as the 416 to acheive similar penetration. For that you would need a 375 Ultra mag or so. The answer lies in velocity/energy/section density.

JPK

Now, just so there is no misunderstanding, I have not hunted Cape Buff or any other dangerous game. I have been on 3 safaris to South Africa to hunt plains game. So, I have a little experience in African hunting but not much.

It seems the .45-70 supporters are concentrating on penetration. Sure, penetration is important but I believe other factors come into play. Heck, I can kill a Cape Buff with a .30-06 with a 220 gr solid, just like Ernest Hemingway did, but I don't consider it a proper "stopping" rifle in case things go sour. I believe energy also plays a part when it comes to putting some "thump" on a nasty beast that is charging.


Ernest Hemingway, February 1934

Take a look at this video and ask yourself rather you'd like to be using a .45-70 (no matter what type of load is used) or something along the lines of a .416 Rigby, .404 Jeffery, .458 Win or Lott or a .470 Nitro Express when things take a turn for the worse.

Click the pic to play the video:



Personally, if I ever get the chance to hunt Cape Buff, I'm going to use either my Ruger M77 in .416 Rigby or my Merkel double rifle in .470 Nitro Express. I'll leave it to others to experiment with the .45-70 Govt. If someone wants to use the .45-70, then that's fine with me. It's just not going to be my choice in a situation where I may potentially have to put my butt on the line, stand my ground, and shoot it out until it's over.

Just my two cents... Cheers!
-Bob F.

This 45-70/"Cowboy In Africa" concept really turns me off, and for a lot of reasons. I'd no more take a 45-70 to Africa than I'd wear bib-overalls and a straw cowboy hat from 'Cracker Barrel' on safari.........

I find it really funny (and hypocritical) that some of the characters who have embraced and blessed the "45-70 in Africa" idea in recent years have actually writted articles denouncing the 458 Win. Mag. as "underpowered" and without "sufficient case-capacity" in order to propell 500 gr. projectiles fast enough to penetrate well and to kill convincingly. Yet, the 458 Winchester cases has greater capacity than the old 45-70 case, and it does indeed propel 500 gr. bullets faster than the old 45-70 does. Some of these guys don't seem to know what they want, but they seem to be pretty sure that they don't have it........

Don't you just love revisionist ballistics.......?

AD

The part that does it for me is the fact that the cartridge is not legal for the game.

jim

But a 9.3x62 is? Yeah right!

Interesting point on the last several posts.Since Brian Pearce published what he did,it must be legal somewhere.Does anyone have a list of where the 9.3x62 and 45/70 are legal,or conversely,illegal?It might be instructive if we can see a link to terrain or usual method of hunting.

A simple way to discuss and put pay to this discussion is to apply the rules of the marketplace.

Suffice to say that if lever action rifles shooting low-sectional density 350-400gr hardened bullets at velocities approaching 1900 fps or 500gr bullets13-1500 fps were effective and consistent killers of dangerous game, they would be all the rage in africa, particularly when one can pick up Marlin rifle for under 400 bucks instead of having to spend many times more for a well-tuned CRF type bolt or even a double.

It is an irrefutable fact that not a single african PH and the overwhelming majority of all hunters in africa do NOT hunt with the aforementioned rifle/caliber instead opting for either a bolt or a double. Again if a lever action "pumkin roller" worked one would see it in Africa from a purely utilitarian and economic aspect.

We also have the 458 Win Mag that was the african standard for many years even though it suffered from erratic and lower than advertised velocities. The reason for it's success I think was the demise of the Anglo twin-tubes and Kynoch ammunition.

Then the 458 Lott came out, and the 458 took a dramatic drop in popularity, even though modern powders rectified it's previous shortcomings. Why? because the Lott attains the requisite velocity/penetration with less fuss than the 458 Win Mag. Today the Lott is rapidly eclipsing the 458WM in africa by both PHs and clients. Market forces in play again.

It is also an irrefutable fact the 45/70 has an can take every specie of african dangerous game, but so have many other calibers and other weapons. There is even a recorded kill of an elephant with a 22 short and no doubt our smaller-brained ancestors (there's a lesson there) even felled the great beasts with sharpened sticks and rocks, so in that regard the 45/70 is "adequate" and to further carry the argument, Charles Lindberg's "Spirit Of St. Louis" was "adequate" for crossing the Atlantic. So if you want to and the laws allow it, by all means use a 45/70 or whatever other piece of archaic blunderbuss that blows air up your skirt, but don't expect a lot of us to go along with what is in my view a stunt pure and simple. jorge

BFaucett-

Thanks for the video - yea,....I want a 45-70 for that.


Gdv

Whomever said the 45-70 was only available in lever action rifles? I've seen many bolts and yes double guns chambered for this fine old caliber.
Also everyone seems hung up on this 500gr bullet weight thing when trying to dismiss the 45-70. A .458 bullet in 400,425, or 450 gr is just as easy to load in a .45-70 as in a .458WM and reach 2100+ FPS...granted recoil in a light lever gun will be horrendous while tamed somewhat in a heavier bolt gun.
Another item I read here posted by the ill imformed is a price of $400 for a new Marlin 1895...more like $550 + Still an off the shelf rifle though a very good everyday one at that.
Would any of the nay sayers like to hold up a cape buffalo hide and rib cage in front of their own body to see if a 400 gr .458 @ 2100fps fired from any 45-70 exits their own ass?

One more video.... not a charge but the Buff makes it into the bush and the hunter and the PH have to sort it out.

Click the pic to play the video:



-Bob F.

If you look closely enough you will find that often the PH "lets" the sport use whatever because the PH is there with a stopping rifle in case of whatever. Now if the sport is injured or killed the PH probably will loose his license because the beancounters doing the investigation will require it.

I think Pearce was hunting in Botswana for that buff, and there they require a .375 or 9.3 or more(and specifically disallow cartridges such as the .45-70).

Legal in Africa varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and even more so on private ranches.

jim

From one of the wholesalers I deal with:

MLG1895G
Manufacturer MARLIN FIREARMS
Man. Number 1895G
Title MARLIN 1895G GUIDE GUN 45-70
Description MARLIN 1895G "GUIDE GUN" LEVER ACTION CENTERFIRE RIFLE 45-70 GOV'T 18-1/2" BBL BLUE WITH WALNUT STOCK 4-SHOT TUBULAR MAGAZINE
Quantity Price None
Price Each $426.50

Sorry, I was off by $26.50.

Levers were discussed because a previous poster brought it up as a rifle he would like to try and hunt with. Even the most ignorant among us know the 45/70 is available in single, some bolts and in dubles. But since Terrence, (aside from his bad habit of lying and forging pictures of other hunters trophies claiming them as his own and uses multiple logins here and elsewhere) lacks the mental acumen to read and comprehend, it bears restating in the hopes he might GET IT:
The fact that a {sic} 400gr 458 bullet @2100 can penetrate a buffalo's rib cage is not in doubt but rather it's ability to range into the vitals with that bullet's low sectional density.

It was so simple, even a caveman could understand it, but once again I over estimated Terrence's ability to comprehend even the most basic english. BTW Terrence, you were dimed out by one of your hunting buddies that you & "Mocassin Joe" are one in the same. And I'm still waiting for your buffalo & leopard pictures from Zimbabwe, hopefully they weren't from Phil Lozano's photo album like last time. jorge

Well, Jim, when you are the "sport" do you really think your PH will loose is license if you are killed, perhaps using a .375 Steyr or other less than humungous cartridge?

And Jorge, would you outlaw a 9.3 that costs the same as Marlin .45? I am sure you are lobbying to outlaw push feeds and ALL off the shelf rifles as unsafe of course.

And Bob, that buff getting to cover, it could never ever happen wit a REAL DGR cartridge right? Right!

There is a heck of a lot of nonsense being spewed here. Sometimes I think the very notion of anyone using a .45-70 somehow threatens your own self images? Why else do you run to the battle with such fervor. I could care less what you choose to use, but why do you care so much what I do NOT use?

You would, of course, outlaw all handgun hunting of DG across the boards right? And I know how you all detest archery. It goes on and on.

I gotta go out and buy me a .45-70 one of these days. It's more gun than I need but apparently, it's just barely enough according to you guys.



Brent

Brent: I never said anything about outlawing any cartridge and if you read my post, I readily admitted the 45/70 HAS taken the animals in question, I just don't care for it and I don't even own a 9.3 and you can use whatever you want. I hunt with pushfeeds all the time. Weatherbys to be sure as I don't care for 700s. But it still begs the question that if this grand old cartridge (45/70), around since the 1870s and fielded in many actions/rifle types, why is it that it never took hold for hunting of dangerous game?

One would have thought that a man like our Teddy Roosevelt, instilled in American pride would have selected this cartridge for is great safari and with the powder/bullet improvements we have today why is it that the caliber is non-existant in africa today even by American clients? We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue, but at least your disagreements come by honestly. jorge

A 375 Styer meets minimum requirements, so does a 9.3x62; the 45/70 does not - for WILD cape buffalo. Shooting farmed animals is a different issue.

JPK

Thanks George you just proved a point for me!
BTW where are you hunting buffalo this year??? (other than your own fantasy)

edited to ask: George would you like to hold that rib cage up and see if the lowly 45-70 can blow clear through you?...As I thought all mouth no balls

[quote=JPK

A 375 Styer meets minimum requirements, so does a 9.3x62; the 45/70 does not - for WILD cape buffalo. Shooting farmed animals is a different issue.

JPK[/quote]

that this makes sense to you says a lot about your experience. Still zero, isn't it.