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Concept question #15341458 10/24/20
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mjbgalt Online Content OP
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Why do we have heavy lead slugs and sabots featuring 300 grain pistol bullets with 30 pounds of recoil? I know there were some old tech issues in the beginning but...

Why not a 150 grain 30-30 class bullet in the sabot and faster and flatter?

Now with the straight wall laws the sabots are probably obsolete but I wonder why no one tried this?

Last edited by mjbgalt; 10/24/20.
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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341535 10/24/20
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I'm not sure there's a powder fast enough to make that work.

Shotgun powers are fast to begin with, even when behind an ounce of lead. Cut that by a third, and you would need a really fast powder to get the velocity increase you are looking for.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 10/24/20.

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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341551 10/24/20
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mjbgalt Online Content OP
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So use a heavier plastic sabot...maybe?

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341676 10/24/20
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Could an appropriate pistol powder possibly work, in a charge which would approximate shotgun pressures?

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341704 10/24/20
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Are you talking about a smokeless powder MZ or a black powder/black powder substitute MZ?

If black powder/substitute gun then you can't get the velocity high enough (safely) for bullet expansion, so bullet weight is what can be used to make up the energy equation, and large diameter bullets. NO smokeless powder can safely be used in a black powder/substitute gun. The steel cannot safely take the pressure.



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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341742 10/24/20
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mjbgalt Online Content OP
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Slug gun. Not muzzleloader

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341768 10/24/20
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Originally Posted by mjbgalt
Why do we have heavy lead slugs and sabots featuring 300 grain pistol bullets with 30 pounds of recoil? I know there were some old tech issues in the beginning but...

Why not a 150 grain 30-30 class bullet in the sabot and faster and flatter?

Now with the straight wall laws the sabots are probably obsolete but I wonder why no one tried this?


From what I know of the twist rates of rifled shotgun barrels, they're too slow to stabilize a 150-grain .30-30 bullet.


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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341794 10/24/20
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mjbgalt Online Content OP
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Ok so you'd have to have the right powder AND twist wasn't fast enough to facilitate that change.

That makes sense. Would be too much bother for most companies and users.

Thanks John

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341871 10/24/20
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Looks like a 1:16 twist would do it, pushing a 30-30 150gr bullet at 30-30 velocity. So approximately 2x the rate of a lot of 12 gauge rifled barrels. Or you could use a 30-30.


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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341918 10/24/20
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Not in Ohio you can't... 30-30 is bottlenecked. Was just thinking outside the box

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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341925 10/24/20
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Hmm. So your smith chambers a barrel in the caliber closest approximating a 12 bore and you get it in 16 twist. Could work but you'd need a more dense material for the sabot and a very fast pistol powder. If the straightwall stuff didn't exist I might have put a few hundred bucks into a project just to try it.

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341927 10/24/20
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Or you stub a single shot break open shotgun with the barrel with appropriate twist.

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15341975 10/24/20
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Originally Posted by mjbgalt
Or you stub a single shot break open shotgun with the barrel with appropriate twist.

That's the route I'd go, simply because it would be the easiest/cheapest. Coming up with a suitable sabot might be a challenge. Was thinking a 20 gauge barrel (or even smaller bore) would work better, but eventually, pressures become a thing.


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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15348904 10/26/20
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Since pressure pushes in all directions, if two cartridges have the same capacity, the one with the wider case mouth will allow more energy to be transmitted to the bullet (which is why a .458 WM gets 5,000 foot pounds and a .257 Wby doesn't).

If you could push a 100 grain bullet out of a .458, you could get far higher velocity than with a .257 Wby, at the same pressure. Problem: The BC would be ridiculously small. Possible solution: a .257 caliber 100 grain bullet fired out of a .458 with a light weight sabot.

The correct twist and powder would have to be selected. Accuracy might be a problem as the sabot dropped away. I don't know.

About 50 years ago Remington marketed a sabot concept, 55 grain .224 bullets in 30-06 and 30-30. I don't know how accurate those were. They failed in the market but then again a lot of Remingron stuff failed due to incompetent marketing.


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Re: Concept question [Re: IndyCA35] #15348996 10/26/20
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Actually Remington brought out the Accelerator ammo in the late 1970s I remember when because was just starting to do a little gun writing, and they sent me some .30-06 to test. It shot pretty well in the two .30-06s I had at the time, a sporterized 1917 Enfield and a Remington 760 pump. It was quite effective in the 760 on running jackrabbits and coyotes that winter!


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Re: Concept question [Re: Mule Deer] #15349242 10/26/20
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I recall the Remington Accelerator ammo of the late 1970's and found it kind of a fascinating concept. But then it seemed to vanish as quickly as it appeared. Never heard an official reason for that but all the unofficial scuttlebutt I heard was, "It didn't sell" and left me wondering if poor sales were due to guys hesitant to try new stuff, or else the stuff didn't perform and the word got around in those pre-internet days that it was crap.

Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15349412 10/26/20
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If you ran the twist where it needed to be to stabilize a 30 30 bullet would the sabot be able to grip it or would the sabot just spin outside the bullet? If you got it to grip would it release clean once clear of the barrel?


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Re: Concept question [Re: mjbgalt] #15349440 10/26/20
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The sabot would be 2 piece, a cylinder split down the middle and peel off once past the muzzle, likely.

Re: Concept question [Re: 22250rem] #15349685 10/26/20
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Originally Posted by 22250rem
I recall the Remington Accelerator ammo of the late 1970's and found it kind of a fascinating concept. But then it seemed to vanish as quickly as it appeared. Never heard an official reason for that but all the unofficial scuttlebutt I heard was, "It didn't sell" and left me wondering if poor sales were due to guys hesitant to try new stuff, or else the stuff didn't perform and the word got around in those pre-internet days that it was crap.


I heard (but never experienced) that accuracy declined after the initial few years after introduction.

But I suspect the big reason for discontinuing the Accelerators was most hunters buying more specialized rifles for every purpose, along with the increase in handloading. In the 1950s and into the early 1960s, many cartridges were introduced as multi-purpose, such as the .243 Winchester. The sales pitch back then is that you could use the same cartridge/rifle on everything from prairie dogs to deer--which would make buying a new rifle more friendly to the family budget. (And thus pleasing the "little woman.).

But as the American economy kept growing, more shooters started buying a specialized rifle for various purposes. Exactly like the rifle loonies who inhabit this site....


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Re: Concept question [Re: IndyCA35] #15349764 10/26/20
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They shot well in my 30-30 Winchester.

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