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Its not the Lord I am questioning, its the writings of men.

"And it repented the Lord that He had made man."

He must have been reading this thread...

He wouldn't have to read it as He is all-knowing!

How do you explain then, Sir, that he promised to preserve his word? Did he lie?

And where is it written that he promised to preserve his word? In the bible, which was written and translated by men who were sinners! The very book we are debating whether it is 100% literal truth!

Apparent contradictions in the Bible are reconcilable with Holy Spirit guided study. If you actually believe that the scriptures are not inerrant, then you have a ways to go spiritually, I believe. I'm not going to say that you are not saved, but I can speak from personal experience in saying that I used to be where you are now. (Just a little too clever for my own good, it seemed. )...

Proverbs 3:5 says: 5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

If you will sincerely pray for understanding, God will reveal things to you about His Word that you would not have believed possible.

I honestly do believe that God has left in scripture many seeming inconsistencies, many seeming contradictions, for the express purpose of putting the insincere off track. But as for the sincere, who read His Word with the guide of the Holy Spirit to understand, the truth and consistency is there...

Dan

Dan,
I don't agree with this paragraph. The Bible is supposed to be God's word and our concrete way to learn from Him. Even the ardent creationist mentioned by other posters here, Dr. Kindell, has said that the Bible does not try to trick us as there is already enough temptation throughout our lives.

Picking the top example off the list of an earlier post:

In II Sam. David has 1,000 chariots, 700 horsemen, and 20,000 footmen.
In I Chron. David has 1,000 chariots, 7,000 horsemen, and 20,000 footmen.

This is very clear and is speaking of the same event. Would God really try to deceive us to tempt us into non-belief? I can't believe that. I think it must be an error by the authors or, more likely, by the translators.

"Proverbs 3:5 says: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
"

No problem with that but I'm not questioning whether we should trust in God. I'm questioning the belief by some that the current bible is free of errors by the sinning authors(not God) and subsequent translators.

That would be a copyist error. Check the NIV, which is based on earlier manuscripts...

While I agree that the basic message of salvation is there, and easy for all to see, there must be Holy Spirit guided study to understand the deeper mysteries of the Bible.

There are apparent contradictions in the resurrection accounts in the gospels. But careful and sincere study will reconcile these.

The bottom line is this: If you want to truly know and understand God's word, He will help you with it. On the other hand, if you plan on contending that there are errors in His word, don't expect His help in understanding it... rather, you should expect kudos from the enemy for working against the inerrancy of scripture.

Dan

That is exactly my point. I really don't think it matters much in most of our lives if there were 700 or 7,000 or some other number. I can't see how it would ever affect my life.

However, many posters here have defended the Bible, including the King James version, as the absolute word of God and, therefore, insist that is is error free. They have posted that God has told us that His word will be passed to us. God does not make errors, therefore, we can conclude that this version is not 100% God's word if you are correct in saying that it is a copyist error.

Can we conclude that other versions have errors, as well? We can speculate but cannot conclude without the same study. Can we go back to the original documents to see if there are contradictions there? In some cases the documents are destroyed and the rest are written in a non english 'old' language leaving plently of room for translation errors(ie, interpretation)

The numbers do agree in the NIV. Is this because the scholars did a better job translating in the 1960's or because they wanted to remove all contradiction?

On the other hand, the NASB, RSV, ESV and Holman Standard all read: "1,700 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers" in 2 Samuel 8:4 but they have "1000 CHARIOTS and 7000 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers" in 1 Chronicles 18:4.

So which version is God's word?

The NIV operates on a suspicious translating principle, presented in its preface. On the one hand, it is admitted that changes of the wording - even insertion of words not in the original texts - are commonplace, and on the other hand, the scholars were all committed to the idea that the Bible is infallible. Hence, that means that if they identified a contradiction, they felt free to alter the text, in opposition to the original text, so that their a priori determination, that there are no contradictions in the Bible, was upheld.

From the preface:

Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals.

Is this the word of God and not tainted with the errors and translations of men?

Dr. Kindell is a proven phoney. It takes four or five mouse clicks to demonstrate that he does not have a PhD degree from an accredited institution. I posted this about a year ago.

SakoAlberta... what religion, if any, do you follow?

Just curious...

Christian, protestant, United church.

I wouldn't have all these questions if I didn't care. I'm not trying to change anyone else's views.

I think it's fair to ask such questions.... as I mentioned, I've asked them all before myself.

There is a point, however, where we must abandon our own understanding and let the Holy Spirit lead us to the deeper truths.

Copyist errors (if indeed that is what they are) do not alter the meaning and intent of scripture at all. I checked the rhetoric on that link you provided earlier (to apparent Bible contradictions) and I could easily explain those, and I'm just a regular schmoe.

It all boils down to whether you want to search for reconciliations in the Word, or whether you'd like to point out the errors. The problem is, if there are doctrinal contradictions in the Bible, we're standing on nothing. And that's right where Satan wants us.

Dan

SakoAlberta,

I just came in from cleaning the garage and am dirty. But I will have to side with you on the present arguement. I have tried to convince folks, contrary to what it appears from my posts, that ALL Bibles are flawed. Never the less, I believe God has protected the Message of His Word. He does say He sends a tricky influence on those who wish to believe a lie.

Don't misunderstand my position on God's Word. I am convinced the Original Signatures were perfectly recorded records of what God wanted stated. He also protects the Translations so that no one who is serious will be rejected by Him on judgement day.

If the Lord wills, when I finish my shower and Sue does not have more honeydus, I will throw in my two cents worth about the Genesis "problems". They are some fun thoughts; at least for me. What was it someone posted, "Everyone's ways are right in thier own eyes." I'm all over that!

Dan,

Thank you for your reply. The errors we have been discussing only point to a conclusion that perhaps the Bible in any version, is not God's untainted word.

Does this mean that it is possible that Genesis was translated incorrectly in some part? No, of course not for certain but it does open that possibility. We are dealing with a translation of men. Even the NIV preface states that clearly:
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals."

Unlike many here, I cannot disbelieve in most of what science teaches us. I have a fairly indepth background in science, however that has not blinded me; it has actually only made me realize the wonderment of all that God has done. I also believe that those YEC (Young Earth Creationists) that try to discredit the science by applying their own brand of pseudo science are only hurting Christianity as they are trying to make believers out of people by using false premises and information.

I took the time to watch a video of Dr. Kindell speaking of his theories of dinosaurs. He is a fluid speaker and may even convince some who know little science and want to be convinced. His talk of fire breathing dinosaurs and of how humans hunted them to extiction is almost laughable. Using false science to refute science can never do anything but trick people into being believers.

So, where does this leave me in my thoughts? I still believe God created the Earth and all that we see. I also believe that God used, and is still using, evolution as one of his many tools.(and what an amazing tool it is in its amazing simplicity to do the complicated and complex)

Some posters here will say that I cannot be a believer if I do not accept the literal translation of Genesis as it appears today in one of the several versions of the Bible as written by various men.

I do take some comfort in the fact that I am not the first to come to this conclusion. Saint Augustine, in "The Literal Interpretation of Genesis" took the view that everything in the universe was created simultaneously by God, and not in seven calendar days like a plain account of Genesis would require. He argues that the six-day structure of creation presented in the book of Genesis represents a logical framework, rather than the passage of time in a physical way - it would bear a spiritual, rather than physical, meaning, which is no less literal.

LOL, well we don't want any dirty postings here. And, uh-oh, someone actually agrees with me on something I posted on this thread! That might be a red flag for me as Mark Twain once said "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." Well, no majority yet.

That could easily be explained that he came in line of the throne at 8 but regents conducted the business of the kingdom in his stead. At 18 he assumed those duties. In both cases he reigned as king, just in different roles.

Whether or not that is the "correct" explaination is not the point. The point is in all cases the Bible is perfect but not always to the imperfect, which we all are. When we have faith that His word has been preserved perfectly for us, then we begin to see that there are alternatives we may not have considered for such passages. One day all will be plain. One day we will have perfect understanding as He does. That day is not now.


Oh really? Are you familar with his second human creation: woman? A few verses to ponder should be no huge leap. If it was always as easy as you seem to want it to be what would be the gain? Even so, with a bit of faith in Him, it does become quite easy.

This is His show, His rules, and His Word. He hardened the hearts of His chosen against His Son so you and I could be saved. His ways will always confound the humanly wise. His plan does not conform to human logic. Thank God!

He alone is God