Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Pope Says Other Churches are Not True Churches

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 8:52 a.m. ET July 10, 2007
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.

Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.

On Saturday, Benedict revisited another key aspect of Vatican II by reviving the old Latin Mass. Traditional Catholics cheered the move, but more liberal ones called it a step back from Vatican II.

Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.

In the latest document � formulated as five questions and answers � the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II�s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been �erroneous or ambiguous� and had prompted confusion and doubt.

It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, �Dominus Iesus,� which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the �means of salvation.�

In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy�s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.

�Christ �established here on earth� only one church,� the document said. The other communities �cannot be called �churches� in the proper sense� because they do not have apostolic succession � the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ�s original apostles.

�Identity of the Catholic faith�
The Rev. Sara MacVane of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document.

�I don�t know what motivated it at this time,� she said. �But it�s important always to point out that there�s the official position and there�s the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics.�

The document said Orthodox churches were indeed �churches� because they have apostolic succession and that they enjoyed �many elements of sanctification and of truth.� But it said they lack something because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope � a defect, or a �wound� that harmed them, it said.

�This is obviously not compatible with the doctrine of primacy which, according to the Catholic faith, is an �internal constitutive principle� of the very existence of a particular church,� the commentary said.

Despite the harsh tone of the document, it stresses that Benedict remains committed to ecumenical dialogue.

�However, if such dialogue is to be truly constructive, it must involve not just the mutual openness of the participants but also fidelity to the identity of the Catholic faith,� the commentary said.

�Not backtracking on ecumenical commitment�
The document, signed by the congregation prefect, U.S. Cardinal William Levada, was approved by Benedict on June 29, the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul � a major ecumenical feast day.

There was no indication about why the pope felt it necessary to release the document, particularly since his 2000 document summed up the same principles. Some analysts suggested it could be a question of internal church politics, or that it could simply be an indication of Benedict using his office as pope to again stress key doctrinal issues from his time at the congregation.

Father Augustine Di Noia, undersecretary for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said the document did not alter the commitment for ecumenical dialogue, but aimed to assert Catholic identity in those talks.

�The Church is not backtracking on ecumenical commitment,� Di Noia told Vatican radio.

�But, as you know, it is fundamental to any kind of dialogue that the participants are clear about their own identity. That is, dialogue cannot be an occasion to accommodate or soften what you actually understand yourself to be.�

_________________________________________
I wonder if this Pope ever read about Jesus talking about "wherever two or more of you are gathered in my name" in the Bible.

Yeah, I heard about that. Basically, since the RCC is the Mystery Babylon we see in the Revelation, the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholics will not be taken in the rapture.

I am not speaking of the Catholics who truly love Christ and don't attach too much significance to Mary. Jesus knows that He has people in the Roman Catholic Church, as we see in Revelation 18 where He says:

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.

What you're going to have (or so it would appear) here on earth after the rapture of the true church is total chaos. America will collapse nearly overnight. No one will be able to explain where the children are. There will be many postulations. The most likely one will be that we were abducted by aliens. Some back-slidden Christians will realize what has happened, but most people on earth won't have a clue, because they refused to believe the truth... see 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I believe that "the lie" mentioned in the scripture above is going to be the lie given to mankind (probably by the anti-christ) which presumably explains where all of the raptured true Christians and children have gone. People will be wondering where we went... then the anti-christ will offer up some bogus explanation, which many of those left behind will believe.

I think that the occasion of the rapture is how we're going to get from where we are right now, governmentally and monetarily, ... so very quickly to where we're going to be in the next few years, during the short reign of the anti-christ. The total chaos on earth in the aftermath of the rapture will cause looting (of the possessions of those who are gone) and fear mongering... and so forth. The anti-christ will rise up during this time to "unite" everyone. He'll declare a cashless world economy, and a one world government. And of course you'll have to take this nifty little RFID device, implanted into your hand or perhaps your forehead (possibly in the cavity over your eye, inserted underneath the eyelid where it won't be felt or noticed)... or else you can't buy or sell.

The anti-christ will tell those who believe that the missing people have been raptured by Christ that this cannot be, because look; the Roman Catholic Church is largely still here, and Christ would certainly have taken them, right? And so the lie is believed...

I think the current Pope is probably the one who will be in power during the tribulation period, and who will ally with the anti-christ, and even the muslims. There are overtures in the RCC now which seem to indicate they are friendly toward accepting muslims and reaching "common ground" with them.

Satan knows that the true Church of Christ will oppose his plans to unite Christians with the Jee-hodders. So basically, Satan is paving the way, by using the current Pope, for the general unwashed population of the earth to believe that we protestants are not really the true church, and that no one should pay us any mind.

The next four years should be very interesting...

Dan

That story was a shock to me....I spoke with someone about it and she said that in his youth, the current pope used to be a member of the Nazi party???? Is that correct?

Hmmm, I just Googled pope/nazi...here is one link I found:
http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pope_benedict_israel_praises_despite_nazi_ties.htm

It ended with this section:

"....Commentators say the new pope's theology mirrors that of many Jewish religious leaders, and should not be seen as a sign of prejudice.

"He's much more traditional, and his positions are a lot tougher than Jewish law," said Lau. "And Jewish law is my law."

A top Muslim leader, meanwhile, urged Benedict to follow John Paul's efforts to promote interfaith relations and resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"We hope that the new pope will give the church more roles in trying to solve the problems that the world is facing," said Adnan Husseini, director of the Waqf, or Islamic Trust. "We hope that he will continue the policy of John Paul II, who opposed the wall around the Palestinian territories and called for peace between the two peoples."

Bishop Theophilos, the top Greek Orthodox official at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, called on Benedict to repair relations among Christian denominations, though he said he was skeptical.

"I hope that he can help promote unity of the Christian churches, especially between the Eastern Orthodox and the Latin," he said.

"The real obstacle to the unity of the church is the office of the pope," he added. "If ever the pope had the courage or the will to say he is the bishop of Rome, not the vicar of Christ, then the road to unity is opened. As long as the office of the pope remains untouchable, the Christian Church remains divided......"

I can't put much value to what the pope was or wasn't as a youth. The question is what is he today? I did some pretty raunchy things when I was young but I was forgiven. Has the pope been forgiven? Don't say 'of course, he's the pope'. Salvation isn't a given. There have been some mighty evil, corrupt popes.

Dick

Looks like he had no choice according to some other links<mandatory Hitler youth/draftee later> but that's still....can't think of the right word here...unsettling....?

Our next door neighbor is a lady of seventy-something. She was born in Germany and had to be a card-carrying Nazi to attend their equivelant of grade school and high school.

Yup, Maxie, my huggy-kissy neighbor; The Nazi.

With all of the hatred thrown at us Catholics, it's a wonder that they haven't crowned Pope Benedict XVI as Reich Fuhrer of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, for pity's sake.

Nope, he was just another German citizen who had to go along with the government in order to go to school. He did pretty well, too, because he is one of the leading Christian theologians of our time.

Of course, I'll get flamed for having said anything at all, so have a fun time flaming.

I'm outta here; gotta leave for Vigil Mass. I'll be sure to light a candle for you.

Steve

I liked that!

So will I: Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. I have no need of an Intercessor apart from Him nor can I find a shred of scripture to indicate I should.

I didn't know Constantine was an apostle.

The link reads like a bunch of theo-political balderdash. That's the problem when a church becomes an institution and forsakes the Church.

I do not intend to be insulting to my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, nor would it be appropriate to allow silence to indicate agreement with the egregious.

Last time I looked in Revelation it told me NO MAN could open that book or close that book. Now you are telling me you can? I don't think so..............

That's very dangerous ground my friend.

Figured that, Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, was profane.

Well said. I try not to be insulting to Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehoviah's Witness or other off the wall sects but the Pope doesn't speak for anybody but himself. He has not a shred of apostolic sucession or any such nonsense. The Catholic Church has a long and sordid past that is well known. Countless millions were murdered/martyred throughout the dark ages by the various "Popes" who followed their "master" , the evil one. Have a great day...

That just is not the truth!! My wife, a native German is seventyish and attended school there without becoming a member of the nazi party and what's more, her Mother was a school teacher in Germany! Niether did she become a nazi! Best get your facts correct before defending somebody.

I'm not giong to some mass thing but will blow up a ballon for you. Serves the same purpose as lighting a candle. What good does that do, anyhow?

Nice flames. Thank you so very much.

Steve

Fellas. I have resisted posting until now because no man on earth speaks for me but ME. (Although I have heard my wife say that she's sure her husband would want . . . . and since we're one flesh, that's just fine. ) I have, as the Bible says, "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

One has to understand the catholic belief of the infallability of the pope when speaking "ex cathedra." To a member of his church, this is as the oracles of God. To a Catholic, their pope is -- VICARIVS FILII DEI -- in place of the Son of God.

His (The Pope's) assertion above does not effect me -- one way or the other.

Steve,

This is not a flame. I was a Catholic for 32 years. I understand where you're at. I had some pretty serious questions when I was about 28 years old that I could not get my Jesuit priest to answer. For 4 years I searched and asked and came up empty. I found the answers to my questions in the Bible.

Are there saved people in the Catholic Church? Sure! I know some. Will they go up in the Blessed Hope? Of course! But just like other denominations -- Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, Presbyterians, COG, AOG, Pentecostals, etc., not ALL are saved, and the ones who are not will NOT go up in the rapture (Blessed Hope.)

I've been hard on Catholics in the past. It is an unprofitable business. Most of my wife's and my combined families are catholics, either nominally or devoutly. I stand against false doctrine in every denomination -- especially my own. It has cost me, but I knew it would, having weighed the cost ahead of time.

No denomination has the market cornered on biblical truth, and certainly not salvation. There are saved folks in a lot of churches - even mine. My Bible says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13) My part is to call -- His part is to save.

Dogzapper,
The stand the Pope has taken is unfortunate, and the response of the rest of the Christian world will be predictable. This issue is a hard thing, but was expected even in the 60's when the ecumenical movement started. The suspicion then was that the mother hen of the Catholic Church would pull all of its little chicks (Protestant churches) back under its wings by reasserting itself at some point. It could do nothing else and still be true to itself. The Protestant movement started a long time ago. I suspect it does not have much longer before the circle completes itself.

However, that has nothing to do with how we speak to or treat you or any other Catholic on an individual basis. I cannot speak for anyone on this forum except myself, but I for one am glad you are here. I disagree with you at times, but agree with you often as well. The value is that if mine was the only viewpoint then there wouldn't be much use to this modem of communication. We would simply sit around and pat ourselves on the back and compliment each other on how smart we were.

I have never been a Catholic of any flavor, but I've been in many Catholic churches and have many Catholics I consider close friends. I have tried to understand the values and traditions they hold precious so that I could better understand them and the relationship between both my friends and I, and the Catholic Church with the rest of Christendom. You may not agree, but I must tell you that as far as the organized Catholic Church goes, I must agree with Cheaha and Wizard. RickyD is right when he says that we don�t want to offend our brothers, but can�t let our silence give apparent agreement to what the Pope has said.

I am also not a Protestant, though many have expanded the meaning of the word to include any Christian who is not Catholic. I am not a part of any group that protested from within the Catholic Church and then came out of it. The group I belong to is a loose association of churches (local) that never gave itself a name, but has been called many things by different groups at different times in history. As such it predates the Roman Catholic Church by a couple hundred years. In fact, this group of unorganized local bodies refused the invitation of Constantine to the Christian churches and did not take part in the temporal power he granted. While there are many differences, since just after the time of the Apostles two main issues have separated us. Those two issues are baptismal regeneration and the hierarchy of church government.

The recent letter throws back to that original issue, and as the Greek church, we cannot accept any type of pope. It, and the type of government within the church that it demands, is considered a sure way to loose the truth that only the local church can be the pillar of. Legislating the word of God cannot be considered true to the word of God, and as such cannot be agreed with. The results have been such things as the seven sacraments (deeds that grant grace simply by performing them), requirements to be a member of a church to be saved, the worship of Mary, Purgatory, and many many other issues.

So, if some seem harsh to you, please understand that it is not you that we (or at least I) dislike, but Rome. I have read the back of the Book.

Nice, FVA. Speaking the truth in love comes out just like that.

So the Pope is just raffirming a truth of how the Roman Catholic Church views other churches and their ability in regards to,�means of salvation.� I can't fault a man for speaking the truth. It is far more sinister to hide a truth so as not to offend. I knew a CEO who said policy not enforced is not policy. On the otherhand policy not enforced is still the legit position of whatever corperation waiting to be enforced when the corp feels it is warranted.

Keith. Deleted my reply to make a few changes.
Hopefully not so much that yours changes.
Liked the way you spoke the truth.

Anyone who wants to truly learn about the early and "original" church would do well to start by reading the book of Acts, beginning with chapter one, verse one. A "true" and "original" chruch conforms itself to the Bible, pure and simple, and any deviation thereof amounts to apostasy.

Galatians 1:6-12 (Paul the Apostle)

"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel.

which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still please men, I would not be a bondservant to Christ.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."

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