Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Playing "The Devil's Advocate" as a phrase,or as an action has nothing to do with trying to convince anyone of anything.It is an attempt to draw out either side in such a manner as to explore all sides of the issue.As I stated in starting this thread,I am trying to stimulate a dialogue,not a fight,and in the process learn as much as I can.....from both sides of the issue.
I would just as quickly have played "The Devil's Advocate" in the other direction if the thread had played out differently.As is through the thread,and various PMs I have received,I have learned a lot.There are those on both sides of this issue who treat this much as they would politics or religion.They don't easilly suffer their dogma challenged.They will have learned less than some others will.
Interestingly,when I initially brought this question up on another thread ,AussieGunWriter predicted that this kind of acrimony was exactly what I would see.
For the record,once again,I'm taking a .458 Winchester with me to Tanzania in two weeks.After I get back I'm going to do some serious research and experimentation with the 45/70 and perhaps similar cartridges.I'd like to have some hands on experience before making up my mind.
The one thing that both sides agree on so far,is that bullets like the .458 Remington flatpoint,though capable of killing cape buff in some situations in any of these cartridges ,is not a really good choice.There seems to be a body of evidence that longer,heavier bullets,even though driven at lower velocities,can do the job all out of proportion to their "paper" ballistics.Anybody see a parallel to the long accepted rational for the effectiveness of the various 6.5s ? And so it continues !

Hunting bufffalo with a 45-70 is like hunting small game with a .22 Short instead of a .22 Long Rifle.

Sure, it can be done but why bother? What's the point?

Why bother to hunt dangerous game with a double rifle ? It's basically obsolete in many people's minds ?It's pretty much an eletist proposition,most people can't afford a decent one.A good bolt action in an effective cartridge is a much more practical way to go. But a safari isn't about practical,it's about adventure,and romance,and for many.....steeped in tradition.
Many on this forum would tell you that a good double in a proper chambering is the best of all choices.
There are those who would only like to follow Ross Seyfreid's lead and take cape buff only with a revolver,I just met a good friend of one such man today.He has taken two cape buff with a revolver,and is planning to go back for more.He feels those big ole rifles take the challenge out of it.
Why do it with a bow ? Yet we all know that there are those who only thirst for that.....yet somehow they seem to get treated with more respect than someone who wishes to do it with a well set up 45/70.
I have never seen Karamoja Bell denigrated in print,yet he took over a 1,000 elephants with 6.5 mm and 7x57 rifles.
I personally am not advocating any of it.I certainly wouldn't advocate just anybody doing any of it,even if it was legal,which apparently is questionable in most places.But what if we are talking about a serious researcher and handloader,who has credible data on specific loads in a specific firearm,and who has experience with taking all manor of big game leading up to cape buff,is it really fair to make your analogy of .22 short/.22 long on small game ? I submit that neither you or I have the experience to make that call .I'm not sure that many who are so against it have the background with 45/70 with those longer bullets to make that call either.
There are several serious big game hunters and 1000 yd. competitors on this forum who believe this proposition has merit.I just think we shouid get a better idea of what they have been doing and evaluate that more closely before we just throw them under the buss.When I get the chance to do some experimenting and researching myself,I intend to find out.
Perhaps these 45/70 guys don't have the goods,then again,maybe they do.It ought to be fun finding out.

I have no real dog in this fight, as I pretty much like .416's, but would like to point out a few things:

Brian Pearce used his .45-70 on a private ranch in Zimbabwe, and apparently there are no caliber restrictions on private land. Also apparently, his load had plenty of penetration.

I have seen such bullets from a variety of black-powder cartridges do amazing things, including killing 2000-pound bison within a few steps. Bison are not as aggressive as Cape buffalo, but they are bigger, and not easy to kill either. Have seen one run around quite a bit, after soaking up .458 Lott bullets in the general chest area.

I have also been on safari with a guy who used a .50-110 Winchester lever-action with 475-grain hard-cast bullets started at around 1500 fps with genuine black powder. He killed a good buffalo, pretty much anchoring it with three quick shots in the shoulder. Eventually he put eight shots into it, but the first 3 were fatal. It did not die as quickly as mine did (shot with a .416 Rigby), but then again I have seen buffalo take more than 8 shots from supposedly adequate buffalo rifles from .375 H&H to .458 Lott.

My partner's PH never felt the need to use his .470 double on the buffalo, so it was indeed pretty well anchored. Afterward, this PH swore he was going to get himself a lever-action, similar to my friend's, and use it on a bunch of stuff.

Just about everybody has a different definition of adequate. I was in RSA for almost 3 weeks this spring, and at one point was invited by the PH's involved to go along as a sort of extra PH/backup on a Cape buffalo hunt. This was after they had seen me shoot some--and had discovered I had some 286 Woodleigh solid handloads for my 9.3x62. These guys had plenty of experience on both buffalo and elephant, and felt confident in the the 9.3x62. Maybe they are nuts. I didn't have to shoot, so don't know--but I do know the right 9.3 bullet in the right place will do very well on quite large game.

I have also been on safari with more than one PH who said, "If it makes the client happy, why not? It's his safari."

Have also yet to hear about anybody getting beat up by a Cape buffalo that was shot with a round like the .45-70. The stories I have heard have all been about buffalo wounded with what are generally considered "appropriate" rounds.

JB

Welcome JB.That's pretty much my point.Just about everybody who is hoot'n and holler'n about how those cartridges won't work has plenty of figuring,but no empirical evidence that they are correct.
As I mentioned earlier,I used to hear the same kind of stuff about the 6.5s when I first started carrying them into the field.I've killed deer with 6.5 Arisaka,6.5x57,6.5x55.Worked neat as you please every time.A guy who was hunting near me one time shot a young buck four times with a 30.06.The deer was lying on the ground letting out the most awful bawls,no more shots.I was carrying a 6.5 Carcano as a kind of rainy day rifle.
I ran to the sound,spotted the deer thrashing on the ground at about 65 yards.One shot ,entered the chest just left of the center line,exited the right ham.Quiet deer.
The guy had run out of bullets.Never thought he'd need more than four.That deer bawling was the worst sound I ever heard.
Shortly after that, articles started appearing in the magazines about how 6.5s kill all out of proportion to what one would normally expect from the paper ballistics.
The 6.5 Carcano is about the least powerful of all the common 6.5s.That was empirical evidence that it could do what so many had been saying (this was 35 or so years ago)that it could not possibly do.
There are several guys who have PMd me about their empirical evidence backing up the 45/70 since this thread started.They just don't want to be subjected to all the invective.If they change their minds , they can speak for themselves.The nay sayers have yet to come up with their empirical evidence to back up their position.

Generally, I have found that a great many cartridges exceed their "paper ballistics" if you point them right at something other than paper.

JB

My point in all this is that the average hunter would be better served by not using specialized cartridges and firearms for DG. We could throw in big bore handguns as well in this argument as far as I am concerned. All these types of weapons have worked. If you are a lever gun or Sharps nut then by all means go ahead. I worry about the average guy reading this on the message board and trying to save a few bucks on their first big game safari and getting themselves and someone else in trouble. Remember if a bad shot is made with any type of weapn and the game is not recovered, then that animal could still be out there, sick, and ill tempered. The next client may have to deal with the situation where you were afraid of getting hammered by the weapon you really did not shoot that much and put one into the bufs gut. Specialized weapons could also be a super magnum that will punch you into next week.
Before making the choice for a specialized weapon (hot loaded lever gun, large bore pistol, or a big bore super mag)on DG ask yourself if this is the type of gun you normally enjoy shooting alot. If so you already know you are up to the task. You got to this point by being passionate about your choice of arms. Understand their are those out there that will pick up a gun a a week before a hunt and will try and tackle anything. I think we should not get caught up in the minutiae and encourage responsible choices. We would all be better served. It is not fun to be the client to follow up some dude who screwed up and you have to sort out his mess.

Sure. Hard to argue with that.

But now I am wondering how many of us have gone to Africa and run into Cape buffalo that were pissed off because somebody shot them with a .45-70.

I have run into a few angry buffalo over there, but the reasons were snare wounds, lion wounds, wounds from fighting other buffalo, and the love of their little calves. But have yet to even hear of a Cape buffalo that was pounding people because of a .45-70 wound.

JB

I don't think anyone here is advocating either the more powerful modern cartridges/rifles or the 45/70 hot loaded,or with more traditional loads with longer heavier bullets for "every man."
Somebody who goes out and gets himself an expensive custom rifle in the latest .460 whizbang,but doesn't shoot it enough to learn how to handle it,or is afraid of it,is far more of a problem than the guy who is familiar and comfortable and most important, competant, with something less powerful.
We are really debating here,whether a 45/70,45/90,or 45/110 etc.loaded with proper bullets and proper powder charges in a well set up rifle can be an effective rifle for cape buffalo.We are assuming that the shooter we are discussing knows what he is doing and has the requisite level of skill to make whatever
shot(s) are presented to him.As Mule Deer pointed out,there have been more than a few instances where cape buffalo have been shot multiple times with a .458 Lott,and failed to cooperate and just give up the ghost.
Were these instances caused by the use of the wrong cartridge or rifle? Probably not.The fault of poorly manufactured projectiles ? Perhaps .Fired by somebody who was not properly prepared to handle his chosen cannon ? Most likely.
We have other folks who can tell us about cape buff being taken down almost surgically clean by properly set up 45/70/90/110 Sharpes or lever action rifles by fellows who have shot them often and regularly on the range and in the field for years.Are their successes just dumb luck ? After all ,even the blind squirrel finds the nut once in awhile.I don't know from my own experience,but it seems to me that there are too many of these folks with essentially the same stories for it to be nothing more than a few lucky SOBs getting away with a stunt,or a series of stunts.

I think we can credit that to good PHs. I watched one empty his 416 Rem into a wounded buffalo, a real BIG one...while it was hi-balling it back to Tarangeri Park after being shot 4 times with a 9,3X64 with 250gr A-Frames, totaly inadaquate for the job. The PH put four shots into the heart/lung area with open sights at about 100-125 yards, into a running buffalo. It fell about 1/4 mile short of the Park boundary after the 4th hit by the 416. I put two 9,3X74R 286gr Woodleigh solids into it, also, but too far back.

MD I did not specify any cartridge.

I will be specific about one thing. A DG hunter better take it serious and put a good quality bullet in a very vital spot.

But believe me you will care less what bullet or cartridge is causing the ruckus you have found yourself in the middle and are left to sort out some gun loonies problem who thought it would be fun to hunt something big in Africa someday without investing the practice time in shooting a large bore rifle.

I will give you a hint, you are only thinking of saving your butt. Later you get to cuss the person that left you to sort his mess.

Have fun but take DG hunting serious.
You have to understand their are those out there that really dont have a clue and do not use good judgement. Not everyone is a good rifle loony.

When you fellow decry a lack of empirical evidence that the 45/70 isn't enough gun for reliable use on African dg, you ignore a whole century of emperical evidence that proved that the 450 Expresses were not up to the game. Not all 450 Expresses shot light 350gr bullets either (though none that I know of was shooting over 500gr bullets either.) For elephants a four bore rifle, sometimes used with exploding shells, was not unusual. For cape buffalo a 577 Express shooting 610gr hardened bullets at 1650fps was considered light, an eight bore rifle was considered a good reliable buffalo round. Both are in very different leagues than the 45/70 with any load. And these fellows learned there lessons through trail and error. This is the emperical evidence you are missing.

And don't forget, all of these big, big bore black powder rifles, which were needed for reliable performane on African DG went by the way side beginning with the introduction of the 450 Nitro Express and its 480gr bullets at real velocities of ~2100fps.

The reason that Bell was able to brain elephants with his 6.5 and 7mm and why a .308" solid will still kill elephants with a brain shot today is sectional density and energy per unit of bullet frontal area. Same then, same now.

JPK

You miss the point.Not what is on paper from the past.Show me where properly set up 45/70/90/110 etc. have failed....that is your brief in this discussion.
The brief of the proponents of those rounds is to show me where they have succeeded.
Their claim is that certain weight,length,and style of bullets in certain alloys will in fact fully penetrate a cape buff any which way you please.
You can't argue from bullets of unknown alloys,of lesser weight,and of unspecified form ,even though probably close,and be 100 % sure you KNOW the answer.Thirty five years ago plenty of knowledgeable guys KNEW that the 6.5s couldn't be counted on to do what a .243 or .257 or even a 30/30 could be counted on to do.

bg
You over-generalize the "average" guy who goes to Africa for a DG hunt. The "average" guy who WOULD go to Africa will have saved his hard earned cash for years and will have had quite a few range sessions with his big bore, usually a 375 H&H. Every guy I've ever run into who's gone across the pond has made every effort to make his "dream hunt" right. This is by picking the right rifle and cartridge combination and practicing with it and by reading everything he can get his hands on concerning the very subject. As it's neither here or there, I would probably worry less about the "average" guy than the clown who would knowingly go with only a 45/70. One thing that's not mentioned as to Lupo's jaunt quite a while back is that his ph had to shoot quite a bit to make "his" safari right. He used a 45/70. Most who would use a 45/70 will be doing so to PROVE a point. What that POINT is, I haven't the foggiest. Shooting non-dangerous game is quite OK for the cartridge and should be left at that.

For the last 50 years, African PHs - and a great many of them - have griped about the limited case-capacity of the 458 Win. Mag., and the resultant low velocities (certain specific rifles, with certain lots of factory ammunition and handloads) that have limited its ability to penetrate well with 500 gr. bullets, plus deliver less than the desired amount of energy. Those are just some of the reasons why cartridges like the 458 Lott came into being in the first place.

And yet, the good ol' 45-70, which performs, in all reality, well below the 458 Win. Mag., is the new "wunder cartridge", especially with some sort of newfangled cast bullet (sort of like the JFK "magic" bullet theory, I guess!) that kills buffalo like a shot out of the heavens, and with total and complete reliability. And all for the price of a Marlin Guide-Gun, plus a hatfull of ammo loaded with magic bullets, and maybe a scope!

And some of the guys who have been promoting and embracing this 45-70 malarkey have on pervious occasions killed Cape buffalo (or they so claim) with handguns, and some of these same whizbangs have also written articles that denounce the 458 Winchester as "under-powered", "too slow", "limited energy", "limited case-capacity", etc. And yet the 458 easily out-performs the handgun cartridges they so glowingly reported on, as well as the 45/70! But, the 458 is found lacking, and the REAL under-powered stuff isn't!!!!!!!!!

And then you have the guys who have the zinc-plated gall to claim that you don't need anything more potent than the 45/70 for buffalo, that energy just doesn't count when it comes to killing power (only penetration!) and this from guys who have yet to kill a Cape buffalo with ANYTHING. Some haven't even set foot on the African continent yet!

Now, is it just me, or does something simply not play right through all this??????

I'm starting to think that there's some sort of convoluted priority here that's more about revisionist theory and down-home style points than real physical reality..........

AD

The only reason we hear more about buffalo being wounded with 458 Lotts etc., as opposed to 45-70s, is that real DG cartridges are used hundreds of times as often as 45-70s, which, after all, are illegal for DG. So we hear more about their results, good or bad.

As for ignoring history, remember that the original 45-70 became instantly obsolete for North American game as soon as the 30-40 Krag with a 220 grain bullet at 2000 fps became available in the 1890s. Instantly!

Now we have, of course, more powerful loads and better bullets for the 45-70. But we also have the same for the various .300 magnums. The difference remains. In fact, a 30-06 with a solid bullet will out-penetrate a 45-70. It has a bullet with better sectional density hitting with more velocity. But I wouldn't pick a .30 for DG either.

I am not impressed with shooting through docile Amrican bison. Any 300 Magmum with premium bullets will do that.

If someone wants to hunt with a 45-70, that's fine. But I can't see the cartridge as the best choice for any game, dangerous or non-dangerous.

BTW: A 550 grain bullet at 1500fps has less striking energy than a 30-06. Kind of shabby.

Indy,

Whether a bison is "docile" or not has nothing to do with shooting through one. I suspect you would be surprised about shooting through a big bull with a .300 magnum and most "premium bullets.

JB

I've never voiced my opinion on this subject, although I've read on the subject time and again on other forums. I haven't read all of this one but despite what has been said about the 45/70 lever gun or the traditional DGR's I have made my mind up. The 45/70 would work. Is it optimal, hell no. Adequate, probably. I'd shoot one with my 35 whelen with heavy bullets. These are my opinions though. Guys its a matter of opinion. You have yours,I have mine. I would love to test my theories, alas I probably never will get the chance short of winning the lotto. I could be wrong about the 45/70, I've never been to Africa,and all the guys saying it wouldn't work have never shot a buff with one. You really want to prove something doesn't work, show me. I would rather see someone go after buff with a 45/70 than a bow or a small caliber rifle(6.5X55,7X57). Use what is legal,shoot accurate and finish the job you start. But by all means continue the debate it's good reading.

You Have done this and know it to be fact??