Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Reminds me of a signature a guy used to use back in ye olde days of the newsgroups. It was something like this:

"The Internet is a place where men with clubs in their hands stand around a crater in the ground where, long ago, a dead horse used to lie"...

Something like that.

Carry on!

-jeff

hmm, a little lull in the action and the fans in the stands grow restless. How charming...

:-)

-jeff

Savuti and Jeff
Some of us are actually learning a few things here.If you have nothing positive to add,why rain on someone else's parade ?
Surly you can find another thread that holds some interest for you.

Again, your example doesn't really answer the question since you have no "slow" example. (Your's are not even 100 fps apart, identical for all practical purposes!)

That said though, one of the problems with live flesh tests is the fact that it takes enormous quantities of tests to get around the many variables. Surely newsprint and other things in various forms can provide some useful knowledge when it comes to bullet performance. By better controlling the variables one tests for, it is possible to actually learn how those variables affect things. (Even Nosler, a company with some repute in bullet making, has acknowledged the use of newsprint for testing their designs.)

I really don't know if there are any magic speeds where bullets penetrate better or if one can simply graph the direct correlation of penetration and speed so I don't care which side is "right." I do know there seems to be evidence to support the slow bullet idea, and, you're correct, the tests are based on wet newsprint. (Would a dead walrus test count? They are considerably bigger than any buff and, I would venture, have even thicker hides. But, aack aack, gag!)

I do like the fact that one can use certain common materials (like newsprint) and create tests that provide some useful information before hunting with a given projectile. Those tests can be fairly easily repeated by anyone anywhere which is one of the things that is useful from standardized or scientific standpoint. While live flesh tests are great, even the most objective person doesn't always see and recognize what has happened when looking for and at bullet tracks. Of course, after the fact, dead is dead and there are a lot of ways to get there, if some admittedly better than others.

Here's some gasoline,
Hard cast bullets, low antimony (this causes the shattering when too high), heat treated, in calibers above 40, with a BHN of 22 will begin to expand at 1,900-2,000 fps depending on the size of the meplat. That size of meplat also depends on how deep a bullet penetrates. I don't have critters here big enough to stop them in Iowa. The expansion/penetration tests were done with (GASP) wet newsprint, 1/2 in heat treated steel plate and cement. I will tell you that I can tell very little difference in penetration on these mediums between a 416 Rigby with solids, a 375 H&H with solids (a poor buff round?), and properly heat treated lead alloys in the above velocity window.
To those who pooh the velocity of lead bullets, and velocity is the holy grail to penetration, why not shoot the 458's out of a Weatherby? If you do you will notice the bullet chipping, deforming etc. found in the lead alloys over their threshold. Ever shoot these rounds in water? I'm no buff shooter but I'd put a 500 gr 45/70 (1300fps) up against a 500 458 at 2150 in a water test (sorry, I'm timid).
The final test would be a 1500 lb. steer ( big enough, tough enough, and something a non buff killer could afford?) facing you and ass end him with a 45/70 and a measly cast bullet. I'm sure the chances of getting hit are about as likely as being hammered by a buff?
In all seriousness, Brian Pearce's articles have been about "putting his money where his mouth is" as to the confidence he has in the 45/70.
MD, any "whale tests" from 458 Win and his 505 (510) Gibbs cast load? I recall him testing on a whale carcass?
After all Brian Pearce, MD, and Dave Scovill know nothing, see nothing, and its not like its their job or anything.
Nate Hoffmeier

Nate - where the heck in Iowa are you? You must be a neighbor somewhere near by. I'm, in Story City more or less.

BTW, there is a guy on the AR Africa forum that is trying to get rid of a 1700# Angus bull that tossed him one too many times. Your's for the shooting (in TX I think). Just a little bigger than the average cape buffalo...

Also, don't most DG hunters use softs in their MegaDG rifles these days?
Brent

Brent, I'm in Polk City. How's the Norsemen doin'!
DG hunters seem more confused than us deer shooters as to what works. I always thought if you hit vitals/break bone and hit vitals you could drop anything, as long as the bullet was up to it!?

Doin' fine but a shortage of lutefisk is giving us fits and making us restless...

I don't now anything that will live very with an extra 1/2" hole punched through it.

Brent

Wonder if JB has had any lute? Us krauts vil sticken tu da biere!
Evidedently its not the half inch hole, its a 400 fps faster RN half inch hole!

now i know your freaking nuts.............im 1/2 Norwegian and cant stand that crap

Brent and Nate - checking in from Belle Plaine. I am a misplaced Kraut who wound up growing up around the Swedes in Albert City. In my opinion, there is no way there could ever be a shortage of lutefisk. Best, John

A German will eat damn near anything. Gramps loved hog brains, fried. Buff brains on the menu? Oh, no Mad Buff disease?

rattler: with lutefisk, being 1/2 just don't cut it .pak

lol my grandmother would make it for my grandfather on occasion.......she couldnt stand it either

Old Saying...

"A German won't eat what a German doesn't know." My Grandad Stiegelmeier was a prime example. They sure knew some vile eats, however.

Nate, could you explain your heat treating in more detail and explain how heat treating interacts with alloy (I believe that some antimony is needed but not much for heat treating).

I know that I don't know much about this subject, and I would like to learn more. A lot of folks here don't even know that they don't know.

I'd also be interested to know where you picked up your knowledge of heat treating. Is there a good reference to recommend?

Brent

Brent, I don't want to hijack the post (any more!), so I'll PM you the info.

Nate, it's not a hijack at all, I am pretty sure Steve1 will want to know, and Sharpsguy = if he doesn't already, and maybe others.
Brent

Sorry, you have permission to use anything I PM'd. Not really private, just alot of stuff!@ More if you want it.