Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 3 leaf rear sight?

Wondering how to tell if a sight was a savage sight? I have had several I thought were Winchester and they have gone to new homes digging through I kept another must have been a little different is there a way to distinguish the savage sight?

A few Picts

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/15465594#Post15465594

I think this one is petite in comparison to the others?

Murray has a picture of the 1900 catalog with the sight , there was discussion here on the propper sight like it was different but I do not remember the details

I have no idea myself but if there's a 1900 catalog listing then I have to assume it was an option. My hunch would be that the site was made by someone else like Marbles and bought by Savage for use on the 99. That's as much as I can help - sorry it couldn't be better.

The 1902 Savage catalog has the sight pictured with Winchester markings, other catalogs have the that rubbed out with an obvious mark left where it was removed. The carbine ladder sight and I think one other are also shown marked WRA Co. I posted pictures of this sometime ago, I'll try to find them.

I think these sights were made for Winchester and Savage got them from the same source.

'Old Gun Sights' says the Winchesters were made in 4 different heights, the ones for Savage also would have had to been made in different heights for different guns and calibers. The sights are sometimes marked with an A, B, C or D on the back of one of the leafs, if that is present I would say it a Winchester, but I don't know if all Winchesters were marked and I don't know if the Savage's were marked in anyway.

Found the 1902 catalog pages, but in photobucket.... but still readable.

Thanks Gene I was hoping you would chime in. Looking on the net they all look the same to me. This one has a C on the third leaf's backside so what exactly does that mean? Do you think would have been the same win or sav? My memory says on prior info one of the leafs had or was made of something different?

Winchester 3 leaf express sight,they made 2 models one with a platinum line one without. I have some on winchesters ,not sure if i have any savages with them.

In the book 'Old Gun Sights' it says the early versions had the platinum lines. The tallest leaf on the A version was 0.362", for the B it was 0.401", the C 0.380" and the D the same 0.380" and that the C was for blackpowder so the other 2 leafs must have been different on the D for different trajectories. I would think there would have to be a lot more height differences than this for a fixed sight to work with a variety of cartridges at three different ranges. I would think the sight had to originally be tall so the leafs could be filed down.

The Winchester catalog pages shown in 'Old Gun Sights' have the same pictures as used in the Savage catalog.

So the C would have been for 32-40 38-55? Any thoughts on when the platinum was eliminated?

The Three Leaf Platinum Lined sight was most likely the most common optional rear sight on Winchester M1894’s. It is usually found on the earlier (1900’s) guns. I have a special order M1894 serialized in 1901 that wears one.

Hi Gene

I don’t know how Savage operated, but Winchester was still using an inside contract system through the turn of the century. From what company employees and executives wrote in the 1940s, the company provided the factory floor space, raw materials, etc. The contractor supplied his labor, specific tools, etc. We were fortunate to see some inside contractor records and turn of the century manufacturing specs when researching the Model 1895 book. These manufacturing specifications included what the specific sight parts were made from, how they were heat treated and finished, and who the inside contractor was the time for that job. Many of these contractors later became important company employees and supervisors as that system was phased out. Later Winchester general manufacturing plans from the 1910s, 1920s and after, found at the McCracken Research Library, are very specific in the materials and operations for making their sights. I didn’t have a chance to look through them all, but I've seen the original documents that indicate Winchester made their own sights, from at least as far back as c.1900. We covered some of this in the Winchester Model 1895 book and even show a few of the general plans. Maybe Savage used some of the proprietary Winchester sights for a time until they had enough of their own designs, that most likely in their view were superior. If I remember right, David brought a nice 1895 (or maybe an 1899) to the Cody show a few years back that had Winchester carbine rear sight on it, which is basically a scaled down version of the sporting leaf sight shown in the catalog image above.

Sounds like my 1895 SRC. I'll check in a little while. Busy with new book stuff right now.

Brad, Thanks for that information. Do you know if all, most or just some of the three leaf sights had the A, B, C & D markings?

I also will add that the Winchester style sights were last in the Savage 1902 catalog, the 1903 did not have them.

I don't think the express was used on the 1895 carbine. It was used on the 1899 carbine. The catalog shows the platinum version and that is the only version I remember seeing on a 1899-F. The only two rear sights used on the early SRC were the express and the carbine ladder. Once the Savage 21 (around 1905?...corrected to 1903) was in production the others were dropped.

The express was used on the Win 1873 carbine and went through several changes over the years. The 1st leaves had shallow V notches, followed by shallow U notches (around 1914) then deep V notches. CTW I thing your sight is from 1920 or later. I think there are few people who would know if it was correct or not .

While we are on these early sight, the early catalogs show the Savage 11 and list it as a Sporting Leaf sight. The sight pictured, a Winchester, is for a rifle. It is pictured in the very early Winchester catalogs and has the 1000 centered at the top. I have yet to find a sight dealer who has seen this sight so I;m thinking it was just a pre-production drawing. That sight can be found marked 1873 and 1886 . There is also a shorter version that was used on the 1899 carbine and the 1895 (not sure if this one was Winchester or Marlin). I wonder if the catalog picture was intended to be of the carbine sight and not of the rifle sight as the carbine version is never pictured.

NOTE: Stroebels sight book has the information for the sights used on the early 1899's all screwed up!!! So be careful what you believe.

On the Model K, I think it is more common to find the Lyman ^6 on early versions and the Marble 95 on later ones.

Brad, glad to see you are still checking in on us.

Hi Rick

I think there are a few other sights that have catalog illustrations that show markings that don't match the actual known markings, at least from what I've noticed.

We used an image of a sporting leaf rear on a Winchester 1895 40/72 in the book that is just marked 2-10 on the elevation scale, no 100, 1873, 1886, etc. across the top. There are some rare mentions of the sporting leaf sight being installed on 1895s in the factory ledgers, I'd guess usually 38/72 and 40/72 rifles. They also mixed brands on the same rifle and used a few Marbles special base sights from the factory that Gene did some extra research on.

Gene: I think the loose three leaf express sights I've had have been marked B, C and D, I haven't had an A. Not the sight I'd like to try and flip up to see on someone else's rifle, I'd think I could easily break off a leaf. There are some marked 1, 2 and 3 on the leaves, nothing else, and I can't remember seeing those mentioned in any of the sight books yet.

Congrats on your book Brad! Nice work.

I don't have a model 1895 at the moment, but I will be getting a book.

I would have to think the 3 leaf sights not marked in the usual way the Winchesters are might be for the Savage's... or something else.

Rick, the No 21 sight is first in the 1903 catalog and the three leaf and ladder sight are gone.

The patent for the No 21 was applied for Nov 1904, the patent laws must have been different back then, under current law "you must file your patent application within one year of the first offer to sell your invention, or within one year of your first public use or disclosure of your invention". If that were the case back then the time line doesn't fit becasue that would suggest it's introduction was at the earliest Nov 1903 which is a little late for it to be in the 1903 catalog.

I have never seen a No 21 sight not stamped with either 'PATENT APPLIED FOR" or "PATD. MAY 16 '05", but there must be some out there from the first years of production. The No 21 was designed by Arthur W Savage and was the last patent in his name applied for before he left the company, his patent for the Model 1904 was applied for earlier but granted later.

Hey Gene

Those marked 1, 2 and 3 that I saw were on earlier Model 1894s. I have to clarify, I wasn't able to flip up the leaf to see if they had a letter designation or not, but they matched the rifles they were installed on. One highly finished, the other a grey rat that I handled and took photos of. I think someone once sent me n image of a loose one also, but I can't find it for the life of me. And other collectors have told me they have them on 1894s they own.

Thanks Rick. I believe you'll enjoy it!