I've wanted for awhile a Model 1886. Ideally... I'd like a vintage New Haven made gun but I don't know enough about them right now to feel comfortable dropping the kind of coin they go for. Plus, I want a gun I can take hunting without worrying too much about it.
The modern Miroku made Model 1886s look interesting for an entry level guy who isn't yet a guru and who wants a shooter. What's everyone's opinion on them? Any suggestions over case hardened vs blued and full sized vs extra light weight? I'm thinking case hardened, full sized. I know Winchester made them until 1935 but when did they start producing them again?
I'd go with 45-70. I've never loaded for that cartridge. Any powder and bullet suggestions?
Hi CK! Absolutely no expert on the variations of Winchester originals or the Mrioku repros coming around beginning in latter eighties. I have several what I call 'poor man's' original 1886 Models, all in .33 Winchester and hence "poor man" as that chambering generally the least collector interest; ergo, least expensive. Two lightweight rifles, regular & takedown and one full mag 24" barrel rifle. All several made, coincidentally, in 1903 and of course by then smokeless power versions; a consideration of buying a 'shooter'. Lot less muss & fuss! A photo of one below. The greatest problem with the '86 seems to be a common one generally with collectible rifles. "Originality." Two dimensions of non-original. Non collectible and opposite extreme, POS throw together, often not shootable too! The problem, with guns of the '86 average vintage, great expanses of time for 'more likely than not - non original! Very much to know about these guns and unless 'deep pockets' most of us can't afford too common mistakes!
The Miroku 1886 versions of which I'm a bit familiar, were perhaps first offered under the Browning name. I took that as a pretty good recommendation. The initial model to my knowledge in 45-70 was a long heavy octagon barrel edition. I wasn't taken to that one. Believe the second Browning edition was the Saddle Ring Carbine of early nineties, also in 45-70. I kept 'intending to grab one'; right until none were left! Fortunately in latter nineties, found one used-as new in box, at great price. They also offered a Model 71, the "improved" '86, but strictly in its original .348 Winchester, another obsolete cartridge! I have an original Win 71, second year production and one of my 'honeys'! My Miroku, though largely a safe queen, does function well now a better part of quarter century later. Happy to have it! Miroku has become something of mainstream in the Winchester family, sold by Browning-Winchester; latter label. I have an extra lightweight rifle of Winchester label, of about 2012, my purchase date new. It's also a quite decent iteration! Mirokus are quite good from all I've seen, read and personal experience. Closing with again 'disclaimer': No expert here! Best, Happy Holidays & Stay Safe! John
I bought mine 25 or more years ago under the browning name. It is very smooth and well made and accurate, although better sights are in order. Especially now with my eyes.
I've had a Browning BLR made by Miroku... fit and finish both seemed very good.
You might look at the Model 71 repros, also by Miroku. I think the "Browning" version didn't have a modern tang safety, whereas the later "Winchester" version did. I think at least one of the variants could be had with the bolt-mounted peep sight. Maybe.
My 71 is an original "deluxe" from 1937, i.e., with the 98A peep... and you could find original, too... but then you might not want to mess with it too much.
Pros and cons to the .348 Winchester cartridge. But then again it's not uncommon to rebore/rechamber to something bigger... taking advantage of the .50-110 diameter case... and improving over the .45-70.
Hi CK! Absolutely no expert on the variations of Winchester originals or the Mrioku repros coming around beginning in latter eighties. I have several what I call 'poor man's' original 1886 Models, all in .33 Winchester and hence "poor man" as that chambering generally the least collector interest; ergo, least expensive. Two lightweight rifles, regular & takedown and one full mag 24" barrel rifle. All several made, coincidentally, in 1903 and of course by then smokeless power versions; a consideration of buying a 'shooter'. Lot less muss & fuss! A photo of one below. The greatest problem with the '86 seems to be a common one generally with collectible rifles. "Originality." Two dimensions of non-original. Non collectible and opposite extreme, POS throw together, often not shootable too! The problem, with guns of the '86 average vintage, great expanses of time for 'more likely than not - non original! Very much to know about these guns and unless 'deep pockets' most of us can't afford too common mistakes!
The Miroku 1886 versions of which I'm a bit familiar, were perhaps first offered under the Browning name. I took that as a pretty good recommendation. The initial model to my knowledge in 45-70 was a long heavy octagon barrel edition. I wasn't taken to that one. Believe the second Browning edition was the Saddle Ring Carbine of early nineties, also in 45-70. I kept 'intending to grab one'; right until none were left! Fortunately in latter nineties, found one used-as new in box, at great price. They also offered a Model 71, the "improved" '86, but strictly in its original .348 Winchester, another obsolete cartridge! I have an original Win 71, second year production and one of my 'honeys'! My Miroku, though largely a safe queen, does function well now a better part of quarter century later. Happy to have it! Miroku has become something of mainstream in the Winchester family, sold by Browning-Winchester; latter label. I have an extra lightweight rifle of Winchester label, of about 2012, my purchase date new. It's also a quite decent iteration! Mirokus are quite good from all I've seen, read and personal experience. Closing with again 'disclaimer': No expert here! Best, Happy Holidays & Stay Safe! John
Copper, I have (3) of the Miroku Winchesters ( 2) 1895's and (1) 1892 Take down. I also have a few original Pre -64 Winchester Lever Gunsas well. No problems at all with the Miroku guns, Fit and finish and accuracy are there. I know the purist scoff at them but they give you a rifle that you can use to hunt or actually shoot alot and not have to worry about devaluing it.
I've had a Browning BLR made by Miroku... fit and finish both seemed very good.
You might look at the Model 71 repros, also by Miroku. I think the "Browning" version didn't have a modern tang safety, whereas the later "Winchester" version did. I think at least one of the variants could be had with the bolt-mounted peep sight. Maybe.
My 71 is an original "deluxe" from 1937, i.e., with the 98A peep... and you could find original, too... but then you might not want to mess with it too much.
Pros and cons to the .348 Winchester cartridge. But then again it's not uncommon to rebore/rechamber to something bigger... taking advantage of the .50-110 diameter case... and improving over the .45-70.
-Chris
I didn't realize the newer variants come with a tang safety... not sure I care for that although it sounds like they can be removed. I'm guessing the half cock safety is still present even on the tang safety models?
Can someone tell me more about the sight options? I know they come standard with buck horn sights but then there's the bolt mounted sight (is that limited to the 98A peep?) and looks like a tang mounted sight option too. Any others? Which is considered the best? The bolt mounted sight looks like it would be the most comfortable to me but I have no experience with any of these.
Sounds like the different sight types are not compatible with every rifle. How can you tell which will and will not work with what rifles?
As far as I know, the half cock position is present on all of the repros. Somebody else might be able to confirm, though. They work well for shotguns, but I wouldn't want one on a lever rifle.
Were it me... the bolt-mounted peep is best for an 1886/M71. The barrel-mounted buckhorn (or any other) rear sights are getting a bit too coarse for me.
I have some rifles with tang sights, and they work well for sighting but they aren't so great for carrying, and then maybe deploying at speed if you didn't carry it up and ready in advance. Good sight picture, though.
As far as I know, the half cock position is present on all of the repros. Somebody else might be able to confirm, though. They work well for shotguns, but I wouldn't want one on a lever rifle.
Were it me... the bolt-mounted peep is best for an 1886/M71. The barrel-mounted buckhorn (or any other) rear sights are getting a bit too coarse for me.
I have some rifles with tang sights, and they work well for sighting but they aren't so great for carrying, and then maybe deploying at speed if you didn't carry it up and ready in advance. Good sight picture, though.
-Chris
Good point about the tang mounted sight. That looks like it'd be a pia to carry around.
I've wanted for awhile a Model 1886. Ideally... I'd like a vintage New Haven made gun but I don't know enough about them right now to feel comfortable dropping the kind of coin they go for. Plus, I want a gun I can take hunting without worrying too much about it.
The modern Miroku made Model 1886s look interesting for an entry level guy who isn't yet a guru and who wants a shooter. What's everyone's opinion on them? Any suggestions over case hardened vs blued and full sized vs extra light weight? I'm thinking case hardened, full sized. I know Winchester made them until 1935 but when did they start producing them again?
I'd go with 45-70. I've never loaded for that cartridge. Any powder and bullet suggestions?
We all may have gotten ahead of you a bit...
Maybe you've had a discussion with yourself about what the rifle would be intended to do? Hunting, yes... but hunting what? At what distances, in what environment? I'd describe the big lever guns as sort of a niche, these days, surrounded by other maybe-equally-useful options in various formats and chambered for various cartridges.
My M71 is the 24" barrel version... with peep... and I'd describe it as a 150-yard rifle in my hands (with my eyes). Maybe 200 yards with the perfect broadside/not moving presentation of a seriously big critter. The 24" barrel hangs nicely, although it's a bit much for threading myself through the laurel... and I'd likely prefer 20" if I were starting from scratch. And Oh, BTW, the rascal weighs 9 lbs loaded with sling. Which in turn can mean some extra work schlepping it around in any kind of difficult terrain.
I've only just restarted a handloading project -- put on hold about 35 years ago because I didn't know how to adjust the peep sight. I got some help on that recently, including input from some folks here, so now I have a clue (there's a thread or two on that)... and I got it sighted in enough to carry it in the western Maryland "mountains" this year... so now I can probably get back to making up some decent loads for it. I'm digressing a bit, but partly to finally get around to saying if you're just gonna hunt deer and moose and so forth with it, the .348 is quite sufficient. And these days, with better bullets than were originally available back starting in the '30s... I suspect the .348 with really good bullets is maybe OK for big bears, especially on a guided hunt with a back-up gun behind you.
Or... the .348 case blown out to some of the various "improved" cartridges... may improve on what you could do with an 1886 in .45-70. OTOH, sourcing components, especially either for the .348 as is or any of it's wildcat variants is the kind of issue that haunts "obsolete" cartridges.
I happen to prefer the pistol grip versus a straight grip; I dunno if the 1886 repros offer choices in that or not...
Excuse me if redundant, I've just skimmed a lot of Posts since my just recent one. First, the side comment that a lot of folks seem to agree that Japanese Miroku guns reaching our shores are really quite good products. Happy to learn of general concurrence!
To my next point if not already made. Tang sights. I have a couple on my guns. Quite good for sighting. The pits as soon as needing to 'lower the flag' if up, before every cycling! Sorry if this point well covered. Below an original Winchester with such sight and 'other' sights too; re what I'm speaking here about. For casual 'gentlemanly' shooting, bit of nuisance. For serious rapid repetitive shots, a 'forget it'!
Last point. Miroku Winchester renditions are now themselves becoming collectible! I'd not begin altering such as D&T without due consideration of depreciating value!
IF I were to own a reproduction 1886, I would forgo the Winchester marked rifles and look for a Browning marked rifle (both manufactured by Miroku). They are more original in looks and forgo that gad awful tang safety.
iskra, You shouldn't have to "lower the flag" to cycle your tang sight equipped Winchester. My so equipped rifles don't require it.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
Intended game will be mostly elk. 150 yards with iron sights sounds about right and probably about where I'll be looking to max out. Maybe 200 depending how well I shoot with it. My M70s will still do the majority of my hunting but taking an elk with a Winchester lever gun just sounds cool and like I something I need to do.
I have no experience with these older lever gun cartridge's and don't know much about them. 45-70 Gov seemed like the best choice... it's big and I assume it's components are readily available, current shortage of reloading supplies aside.
Now if an original Model 71 is less expensive compared to an 1886 and components for the .348 Win aren't impossible to find, I may need to consider that. What's the reloading landscape look like for the .348 Win?
Given the use you're intending it for, IMO an M71 is what you want. An original 71 will be cheaper than an original 86 and Browning made a run of 71s in both the rifle and carbine lengths that would be cheaper yet. I can't say what the availability of .348 components are presently as I haven't needed to buy any for quite awhile.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes." szihn
IF I were to own a reproduction 1886, I would forgo the Winchester marked rifles and look for a Browning marked rifle (both manufactured by Miroku). They are more original in looks and forgo that gad awful tang safety.
iskra, You shouldn't have to "lower the flag" to cycle your tang sight equipped Winchester. My so equipped rifles don't require it.
Do ALL the Winchester marked Miroku 1886s come with a tang safety? I'd really like a Winchester marked gun but I'm not interested in that tang safety stuff.
Now if an original Model 71 is less expensive compared to an 1886 and components for the .348 Win aren't impossible to find, I may need to consider that. What's the reloading landscape look like for the .348 Win?
I've got an old stock of original Winchester 200-grain Silvertip factory loads, and a hundred or so new Winchester cases. Plus almost 300 Hornady 200-grain RNFPs, and 35 or so remaining Barnes 250-grain RNFPs.
Over these last three months or so, I've gotten 100 Starline cases and 100 Hornady cases from Midway. Also 100 Woodleigh Weldcore 250s and 100 Hornady 200-grain FlexTips from Midway.... 100 Swift A-Frame 200s from Graf and Sons... plus 200 cast 200-grain RNFP/gas checks from Montana Bullet Works... and 200 cast 225-grain RNFP/gas checks are inbound from Rim Rock Bullets.
IOW, supplies are out there, from time to time.
Think I'd describe the .348 as a slightly better 150-200 yard proposition than a .45-70 would be. The Swift A-Frame 200s might be about the best compromise over that distance and for that critter, out of the ones I've found. Maybe Woodlieghs for the larger bears (just guessing about that, no experience).
Which isn't to say I'd recommend an M71/.348 for a main or only elk hunting rifle. It'll work well enough within distance limitations -- mostly caused by the sighting system, but partly by bullet profile too -- but there are lots of likely better options for folks who could only have or afford one rifle for that. Given you've got other options available, given that this would be bringing self-inflicted limitations to the mountain, the M71 could be a great way forward. Either original Winchester, or newer Browning.
I dunno if the bolt-mounted peep was available on the 20" versions; if so, I suspect that'd maybe be my first choice. Otherwise, toss-up between bolt-mounted peep and 24" barrel versus aftermarket receiver sight (aperture) and a 20" barrel as my maybe second choice. The 24" barrel hangs pretty well, though. I didn't find the 24" barrel all that horrible when I hunted in Colorado, either; terrain and growth different from what I'm faced with here in the "back East." In Colorado it was just the weight issue, but I was 30 years younger and it wasn't so much of a deal back then.
I think I'd describe the M71 as the epitome of traditional lever-action rifles, the best evolution of the already great 1886. (Excluding the newer and non-traditional Browning BLR, SAKO Finnwolf, and Winchester M88 from the comparison.) I'd have though a sister-cartridge based on the same case and introduced at the same time -- ".411 Winchester" or some such? -- might have made some sense in 1936, too... but obviously something like that didn't happen, 1937 economics were prevailing, and 1936 was a turning point in public rifle acceptance, too... so some of that is just my gums flapping in the wind. Nevertheless, the M71 is a pretty darned decent piece of work!
I've read at least one article that suggests the Miroku versions might be more accurate than the original Winchesters. Hmph. But then again, Miroku does make good stuff.
I think that Miroku makes a great reproduction, so if I was looking for a shooter I'd buy a Miroku. The last time that I was at the Cabela's in LaVista, NE, they had several 1886 and 1892 Miroku repos in the cabinets.
These 86's are excellent and quality is as good as it gets IMO. I wouldn't think of trading or selling this 45/90. My grandkids know I'll come back to haunt them if they would even consider a trade for a Creedmoor !
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Absolutely no expert on the variations of Winchester originals or the Mrioku repros coming around beginning in latter eighties. I have several what I call 'poor man's' original 1886 Models, all in .33 Winchester and hence "poor man" as that chambering generally the least collector interest; ergo, least expensive. Two lightweight rifles, regular & takedown and one full mag 24" barrel rifle. All several made, coincidentally, in 1903 and of course by then smokeless power versions; a consideration of buying a 'shooter'. Lot less muss & fuss! A photo of one below. The greatest problem with the '86 seems to be a common one generally with collectible rifles. "Originality." Two dimensions of non-original. Non collectible and opposite extreme, POS throw together, often not shootable too! The problem, with guns of the '86 average vintage, great expanses of time for 'more likely than not - non original! Very much to know about these guns and unless 'deep pockets' most of us can't afford too common mistakes! ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/gkq2WHJ.jpg)
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