Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa What about the 45/70 in Africa

Am I reading too much into all this, or have some guys talked themselves into thinking that all cartridge and bullet development stopped with the advent of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets?

AD

Yes, allen you are reading too much into it - of course you know that but you just love to argue anyway...

Brent

Brent,

Please explain why loading your bullets to your velocity over a "nitro for black" loading won't work.

BTW, many of the old - and current - British "nitro for black" loadings untilized - and still do - paper patched bullets.

Also, for the benefit of all, it is illegal to fly with black powder, whether in a canister or in a cartridge.

JPK

I have found that 450gr flat nose solids out penetrate 500gr round nose solids by a good margin, ~40%. 450's at 2190fps, 500's at 2135fps.

Others with larger capacity cartridges, like the 458 Lott, have found that the 550's at 2050fps or so out penetrate the 500's at 2150fps and more, up to about 2200fps.

These results are somewhat cantadictory when you look at only bullet weights. I believe the contadiction is explained by bullet shape, with the advantage going to the wide flat nose shape.

JPK

Muledeer,

I meant publish the reults of forthcoming test of participant's favorite bullets at their favorite velocities, not Pearce's article.

Sorry for the confusion, but thanks for the "reprint." I recall the cow, and the shoot through, but again not the nearly end to end penetration reported. From the stern to the brisket, if repeatable and reliable, would be enough in my book.

JPK

ALL,

DO WE HAVE FOLKS REPRESNTING THE "CAMPS" WITH BULLETS THEY WANT TO BE TESTED, AT THEIR VELOCITIES - BUT PROPELED BY SMOKELESS POWDER?

JPK

JPK, my bullets are .443" in diameter. They are then patched to .450" using the proper paper. In a hunting bullet, I would size them back down to .448" to accommodate fouling. The bullets I would send you would be on the order of 16:1 alloy and possibly tempered with a little help from HawkI.

The bullet is to be loaded with approximately 1.4" of its overall length into the rifling. Only 0.1" remains in the case. It cannot be conventially crimped or the patch will be damaged. A taper crimp is used.

If you shoot such a bullet with smokeless powder, the bullet will obturate slowly, if at all. As a result, gas will jet between the bullet and the grooves of the rifling. The hot gasses will cut the paper and melt the lead (alloy has a lower melt point than pure lead to make this even worse) and you will end up with a soldered bore. The bullet will perform poorly.

Blackpowder, for whatever reason, will obturate a bullet much more quickly and the net result is that the gas flow does not develop, the patch survives intact, no leading occurs and the bullet flies true.

I cannot make you a groove diameter bullet because I do not have the dies to make them. They cost several hundreds of dollars for a set. And, a conventionally loaded paper patched bullet in a conventionally throated rifle is likely to have its patch die on the spot when the patch fails to make it fulling into the rifle.

The bottomline is that if you don't want to do it right, don't do it half way, the results would be, if not disasterous, at least a real PITA and in conclusive.

This is not just a matter of "downloading" some oversized pistol bullets. If you do not know what you are doing, you are likely to make a mess of things.

Brent

WOW, that's what my Marlin in .44Mag. was doing. I thought I wasn't strong enough to hold the lever close and this with standard factory loads that Marlin says is safe with their rifles.

www.wildwestguns.com customizes Marlin lever actions for a DG rifle for Africa for whatever this is worth. I've used some of their parts in my former .44Mag. Marlin. If their parts are an example of their work their rifles should be super.

Brent,

I can't do the black powder because loading it here and taking it to Africa is illegal. And I wouldn't do it because of the loggistics of shooting black powder/time and the constraints of being on a safari.

As I mentioned, paper patched bullets are common over "nitro for black" loads. So there must be a way.

Question: If your bullets are taper crimped with only .1" in the case and 1.4" of bullet into the rifling, how do you unload your rifle without leaving the bullet in the rifling? Or is the bullet only bumping the rifling past where the patch begins?

Have you tried your bullets over smokeless? There is a fellow named Sherman Bell, who writes for Double Gun Journal, who has tested black, smokeless and duplex loads and who has demonstrated that the pressure curve of black and at least some smokless equivelent loads are all but identical.

BTW, he took a 450 Express with hard lead bullets to Australia and successfully shot water buffalo. (might have been a 500 Express) I don't believe he uded paper patched bullets for that hunt though. If you cannot see a way to successfully test your bullets with nitro for black loadings perhaps he can pitch in an idea. I'll try to cpntact him if you can't see a way of if other posters on this thread can't see a way to make it work.

You may not think I need 40 bullets, but if I was loading for any bullet I would want at least that many if I wanted a usable load when I was finished. For just shooting four or five rounds into dead buff, I think 20 bullets would do - 15 to get the loading and velocity down and five for shooting into a buff. That would eliminate the possiblity of using the load on a live buff.

JPK

JPK,

Again, you are wrong. You can take loaded bp cartridge on planes. Not only have I done it, many others have as well. And I have had it investigated officially from the top. Not a problem. Loose powder as in a muzzleloader cannot be taken but cartridges may. This is not an opinion. It is a researched fact.

As for "the way" to shoot them with smokeless, it is doable, but you must start with a larger diameter bullet. Groove or groove +1 and a decent throat. I cannot help you with this because I do not have the dies to make such bullets. I'm not going to spend $300+ do do it either.

The bullets are crimped - taper crimped- so they will extract just fine.

I not shoot smokeless powder ever. Well there is one exception. .22 rf. I have only one box of bp loads for .22rf and I sort of treasure them for special purposes.

Here is a webpage I created a long time ago. It is incomplete and out of date, but it gives you an idea of what we are talking about.

http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html

Brent

I don't have some pet rifle hobby that I must indulge in at every opporunity or past the point of all reason, collective experience, and common-sense. With me, African hunting is all about business, pure and simple, and I like to treat it that way. So I use the best and most established, proven tools for the job at hand -- something that'll work at spitting distance and at all points in between, plus under the worst condiditons that might be encountered. This is what experience has taught me to be the most prudent and practical approach.

I feel a strong obliged to make such recommendations to others as well, not just hand out happy pills that are formulated to appease every obsolete notion, every pet theory...........

AD

I love you allen, you are such a pompous ass when you try to slap folks around. What you reall are saying is that you hate it when we don't all roll over and kiss your feet and the ground you pee on, but rather actually work rather hard to know exactly what we are talking about and what can and was and is being done by folks that actually understand something of the technology.

Go stick with your rocket launchers. I have no problem with that, but having made your statement and with nothing useful, constructive, or new to add to you bluster, please find another set of accolytes to carry your torches for you...

Brent

One of my friends and I were discussing different hunters we knew, and the one thing we figured out that they all had in common was, much to their credit, they didn't waste their valuable time arguing with other hunters on the internet......

And that's what this whole thread has been, a waste of time - sort of like slugging it out verbally in a college philosophy class with some career-type, hippie-type student, or like arguing with a guy standing behind the counter at a local gunstore who has never killed an elk and has never hunted dangerous game in Africa, but who's more than willing to argue about such stuff with you anyway!

It must be easier to try to teach your dog how to speak Spanish, and likely a whole lot more rewarding a that!

Brent, go ahead and keep on cussing me, and by all means, get yourself a quality Cape buffalo safari booked at your earliest convenience. You guys keep on hammering this thread out. I'm sure it'll continue to be a rewarding experience........

AD

Gee guy, I don't cuss you. I laugh at you.

Seems it takes two to argue and here you are. So I guess you're pretty much what you despise, someone that talks about hunting on the internet... Calling folks names and what not. Now I'm a hippie-type eh? That's groovy. I'll live with it..

Meanwhile get yourself some education on old cartidges and their ways. You could learn a trick or three. Then you would have something to argue with!

Brent

JPK,
What weight would YOU be comfortable with? I really appreciate the fact that your are willing to try out lead. If need be, I would get a mould that would meet your requirements, and would gladly make them for you! They will be an LBT Flat nosed design, and will be shaped like your jacketed solids. If it helps, I do have a 416 LFN mould and have used it full power and with reduced loads.
Producing nitro for black can be tricky, but is done with proper fillers.
Brent, I know little about paper patching, I saw your site, and its pretty cool. I believe you can use smokeless and PP bullets, as obturation can be controlled with pressure and burning speeds of powder, which cover a wide gamut. There is a conversion I have used for cordite and black powder; substituting with smokeless powders. Dacron fillers, while not nostalgic, can help seal off blowby, keep a bore clean, and control obturation. I use it frequently in loads that gas checks are not available, or for guns with large throats. I even use it in a 45/70 revolver with reduced "dirty" loads.
FWIW, I believe Dave Scovill used a BPE bullet with his load, but made it harder than coventional tin/lead alloy. It was a round nosed bullet with an extremely high S.D. Brian used a lighter bullet, but a WFN design, and jacketed, but got adequate penetration as well (probablya better wound channel as well.)
As a side note: I am a great fan of someone who believed the 270 was not adequate for elk, even when offered "magic" bullets. Imagine if the close mindedness was perpetuated.

Brent, you're funny, and believe it or not, I'm not against you, as a person or as a hunter, at all. In fact, I wish you ever success.

Nor did I refer to you, personally, as a hippie-type. I compared discussions such as this one to arguing with such characters back in college.

AD

Brent,

I have read several pieces, with citations, that discuss the issue of legality, or not, of transporting black powder in aircraft in any form of container, whether that container was a cartridge shell or some other. I came to the conclusion that it is illegal to transport in any container in any aircraft, whether passenger or cargo. I can't find the references now, though I looked briefly. If I locate them in the near future I will refer you to them. I looked on FAA's website and didn't find any specific references using their search, only the generic reference regarding 2kgs of ammo, but with an exception referring to a section of the CFR. I didn't go look at that section.

Explain to me two things:
1. Your website describes hand seating the bullets with no crimp, have you gone to a taper crimping die or are you relying on just a pressfit?
2. Your website also describes the bullet seated so that it is well up the throat of your rifle, this is what I was trying to ask earlier, is the bullet really 1.4" into the rifling or just bumping the rifling with the leading edge of the paper patch further forward?

JPK

Hawk1,

At the velocities you all are talking, I don't think there will be any issues with bullet weight. So I say you all pick two or three different bullets and velocities and I'll get them loaded up and give them a go. I don't want to be picking bullets to represent the 45/70 crowd's side of the argument, thats for sure!

The rifle I that I would do the experimental shooting with is a 458wm. If things work out perfectly, and they don't often, I'll have a buddy coming who might be able to take an additional rifle, a 458 Lott, or ask the PH if I can barrow his 458 Lott. My 458wm is a double rifle and getting different loads and different bullets to shoot to POA is a pita. Not so with a single barrel rifle, like the Lotts.

Not an issue if I'm just shooting tests into dead buff though.

JPK

The legality of flying with loaded bp cartridges was investigated by a friend who is a federal employee who specializes in transportation issues pertaining to hazzardous cargo. He spends a lot of time in Washington so he arranged a meeting with the folks that matter in the FAA administration and had this specifically addressed. He is a hunter and bpcr shooter like myself.

It should be 5 kg of ammo.

1. Yes, I have gone to a taper crimp for hunting ammo and I use no crimp in special situations more related to target shooting. I have hunted with no-crimp ammo but it is a bit of a PITA. When go the no crimp route, I instead necksize without reexpanding and the bullet will usually seat just tight enough that it will not fall out immediately. However, it will often remain in the bore when a gun is unloaded. Then I have to tap it out from the muzzle. Not a big deal, but a PITA nonetheless.

2. Yes, it really is in there. Way up in the rifling. The bullet is a friction fit with the lands of the bore so this is possible in a clean bore. In a fouled bore, you would need to have a slightly smaller diameter to make it go w/o destroying the patch. That and some fancy lube requirements. Sharpsguy is pretty good at that stuff.

A bolt gun would never be able to handle the loads that I make. The OAL is too much. A Lott would not be able to load a cartridge with an additional 1.4" of bullet hanging out the front. Your double or any singleshot could however.

Brent

JPK--You arrived at an incorrect conclusion. You should have read the CFR. It IS legal to fly with cartridges loaded with black powder. It is not legal to fly with loose powder, such as a powder horn or can of powder. When the powder is loaded into a cartridge at that point it becomes small arms ammunition and not an explosive by definition.

Brent is right. This is NOT a guess or speculation. I returned from RSA the 14th of April, and my rifle was a 45-110 Sharps shooting cartridges loaded with black powder and 520 grain lead bullets. I had the print out of the TSA regs with me, including the CFR. I didn't need them. They saw my cartridge boxes, verified that I was under the 5kg limit, and that was it.

I hesitate to send you the bullets you ask for because I suspect that you will load them to suit your own perceptions of the proper velocity. It has become obvious that you and a couple of others have no grasp whatever or knowledge of how or how well these loads work. This ain't Macdonalds. You don't get it your way. Reason? Your way doesn't work with these bullets, and I have no intention of making bullets so that you can attempt to re-invent the wheel, screw it up, and then say it won't work. It WILL work, and work well, but not the way you intend to do it.