Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only 404 jeff or the 416 taylor

In the "40 bores" I believe the 416 Taylor to be the best option for a custom build because it is the simplest to make on a STANDARD length Mauser. A 400 grain 416 at 2350 is the same as the old 416 Rigby,and I know of no one who says a 416 Rigby is a poor choice.

I have made about fifteen 416 Taylors and I kept 2 of them for some years and loved them. But today I don't have any. I do have a 404 Jeffery. Why? Because I used a 404 when I was in my 20s for nearly a year, and came to respect it and found it lacked for nothing, even using the old Kynoch ammo that shot a 400 grain at 2150 FPS. I used more of the newer RWS ammo however that fired a 400 at 2350. Those are deep and important memories for me, and so a few years ago I decided to make a similar rifle for Old Times Sake". I just like it .......because of the memories even though it's not exactly the same and the old 1920 made Jeffery was. My current 404 is just a nostalgia piece for me now.
OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

But for "African style rifles" you have a budget, and if for example that was $2700 and you need to spend $ $1500 on an action that will leave $1200 for the stock, barrel, sights, sling swivels, mounts, pad sling and enough ammo to set the gun up and zero it in, AND THEN have some to pay the man to make it for you.

$1200 is not a lot for all that.

But with a 416 Taylor the action is a LOT less expensive,------------------like about $1000 less! That give you $1000 more to spend on goodies and labor and that makes for a WAY nicer gun for the same budget.
My 416 Taylors were nicer to carry too. Because of the standard size action they carry easier in the hand. Not "fat' like the Jeffery was and is.
416 Taylor Mauser by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]

416 #2 by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
another with a peep sight:
Sig's 416 Taylor by Steve Zihn, on [bleep]
So if I were to want an "African 40" to use instead of "to own" I would certainly go with the Taylor in preference to ANY other 40, 41 or 42 cal. Just makes a nicer gun for the same budget.

Or a plane gun for a lot less money.

Or you could buy a Ruger 416 Rigby at around $2k...

those are awesome looking rifles!

Between those 2 cartridges, I would go with the 404 Jeffery because I prefer standardized cartridges to wildcats. That said, if I was looking for a 416 caliber rifle I would look at the 416 Remington Magnum or the 416 Ruger, if I didn't want a larger rifle housing the larger 416 Rigby cartridge. Everything that the 416 Taylor does the 416 Ruger can do and do it as a standard factory cartridge.

That's technically true regarding the Ruger, but a Taylor is the simplest sort of wildcat to work with, it's just one pass in a sizing die to make the case. Then you're not stuck being dependent on sourcing the unique Ruger case from only one maker, Hornady. Now that politics have gone the way they have, I can't imagine the Hornady folks saying "Let's stop making .223 and .308 for a couple days and crank out some .416 Ruger brass for those 50 guys who want some." I looked at this from every angle before deciding to go with a Taylor and decided that if a man loads his own, the Taylor is the better choice.

I think I remember where one could be found.

DF

Quality Cartridge and Norma make .416 Taylor brass.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3610?

As a side note:
When Ruger came out with the 375 and 416 Ruger shells I though it was going to be an overnight success and that I'd end up buying both chamber reamers very quickly. Outstanding idea on both shells and they fit in standard actions yet give classic ballistics.

Nope. I called that one wrong -----and I have no idea why it is that since they were introduced I have made 2 more 416 Taylors instead of the 416 Ruger, even though I "pitched" the Ruger to both customers. And so far I have not had even one request for a 375 Ruger. Talk about under appreciated cartridges! Ballistics that have a century-long track record of excellent success, without the need of spending a lot of cash on a "magnum action" and all available with no wildcatting either. But for some reason unknown to me, neither has taken off the way I thought they would or should.

When I made such a rifle I buy a "life-time supply" of brass for it as part of the bid on the job. With 416 Taylor I buy 500 cases of 458 Winchester and neck them all into 416 Taylors , so the customer has the dies, shell holder, and 500 piece of brass as soon as he or she picks up the gun. I would do the same thing with either of the Ruger shells (minus the neck forming)

Buying a 416 Ruger right out of the box is really a very good way to go, but I would secure at least 500 rounds of ammo and/or Brass before I bought the rifle. ( For my own guns I do the same thing with any caliber, even going to 308s and 30-06s --- just because I never trusted the idea that "it will always be here".)

500 rounds of brass may seem excessive but it really isn't. I recently bought a Ruger #1 in 405 Winchester and have so far secured over 200 rounds of brass and while that will probably be plenty I subscribe to the notion of "It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I'm also stocking up on 38-55 brass. 15 years ago I bought a beautiful Cooper Varmint Extreme in 25 WSSM. I bought 750 cases and am glad i did.

You are correct GSPfan. For a rifle that is to last a lifetime, it must be viewed as a lifelong investment.

500 rounds is probably more then needed for a reloader who may expect 12-20 loads per case, but they don't eat anything after you buy them, and in the event of selling the gun it can go to the #2 owner also set up for life.

For those that don't reload, setting the rifle with 500 rounds of ammo is likely going to last through every hunt they will have in the rest of their life including, a bit of practice before each hunt.

Considering the fate of many British and European guns made in the 20 through the 40s and hearing all the owners and those that inherited those guns, hearing the statement " I sure wish it had come with more ammo" is VERY common. In the case of a wildcat shell I think of it as vital. So when I made custom guns of that nature I wanted to be as sure as possible it was an investment that would not become useless (or even challenging to use) in the times after I am not around to support them.

In the cases of a custom order being placed and the cost quote covering all the bases, such an expense at the time of the commission is so much more valued many years down the road, and so the initial cost of the brass is fairly low, and long forgotten but the utility of the gun in 40-80 years is not diminished at all.

So getting 500 cases and a set of dies with a shell holder is NOT a bit foolish when ordering any custom rifle.

To me a supply of brass is like good taxidermy. It's a small price up front but years down the road it's long forgotten. A friend of mine will pay thousands of dollars on a hunt but goes with cheap taxidermy. Five years down the road that $350 shoulder mount looks like what it is.....cheap crap.

now i'm thinking the 416 taylor is getting the nod

You won't be disappointed.

I'll second GSP.

With CFE-223 powder, you can safely, and without massive powder compression get 2400 fps with 400gr Partitions.

I liked the 416 Taylor but today if I wanted a 416 I'd go for a Ruger.

Either way it was lots of fun to shoot 400gr bullets at 2150fps, but it got really interesting when you hit 2350.

thanks guy's, love all the story's!

Never had either one though I did contemplate building a 416 for awhile. However, I have really wanted a 404 for a long time.
Les

Just expanding on a common line of thought re ammo availability. My personal gripe...
Gun manufacturers!!! Used to be possible to rely on the big name American manufacturers for implicit assurance of long term ammo source. But things changed and particularly with rifles as a genre. When the 'new & improved' whizzbang features begin wearing thin within category of some so minor as not really sufficient to garner shopper attention, increased reliance on 'new & improved' whizzbang cartridges. Example I most often use is the 450 Marlin. About a single decade after introduction and some short years after discontinuance of the rifle, the cartridge moving from regular supply to 'batch offerings', to now... Gone!

The point, that American rifle purchasers are being 'worked'! As rifle new color shades are about all left to offer... Solution! Intro a new cartridge! Without any commitment of factory loading longevity! The majority of rifle shooters don't handload. The manufacturer upside to obsoleting a cartridge is often - de facto - obsoleting the rifle! Rifle customers arising from guns abandoned to collectors & handloaders!

Except as centrally in "collector" category, I'll stick with the more obtainable factory stuff where I have any choice. A 'shooter' pushing a century old, some legit excuse for true "obsolete" status. But such for the sake of contemporary gun manufacturer marketing & sales goals; no thanks!

Bottom line, such as the heavy chamberings discussed here, one matter to knowingly 'buy into' limited & expensive ammo. Where blindsided by manufacturers' lack of commitment to their own current era customers, quite another!

Best and just my 'wordy' take!
Happy Holidays!
John

I would lean towards the Jeffrey for the history, and if not that then a 416 Remington. I saw both rounds on the shelves of the sporting goods stores in Africa. The Taylor makes a lot of sense except in the case of lost ammo which has happened to me before.

The 416 Remington could be almost as trim as the Taylor depending on the action. The difference between a long action and a standard one is not that great for a rifle of this level of recoil. A magnum action though changes things considerably in cost and bulk especially with a dropped box magazine.