Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Bullets for Cape Buffalo Test

I am opening this thread in the hopes that those interested in continuing the discussion regarding testing different configuration and composition lead bullets in cape buffalo at differnt velocities will join in.

The test will be for bullets shootable in a .458" bore, out of a 458wm or Lott, but at velocities specified by those who supply bullets they would like tested.

Recall that I volunteered to pay for bullets if commercially available, or for materials if not.

JPK

Brent,

Earlier, in the 45/70 thread, you mentioned that your bullets would not be shootable out of a bolt rifle. I wonder if they would be shootable if the cartridge was placed by hand into the chamber and the bolt merely closed on the round so that the extractor claw slips over the rim. Is this possible? No magazine length issues.

I am a little worried about "soldering the bore" of my double rifle if the smokeless trail doesn't work. I would be a lot less worried about a bolt rifle barrel. Also, I might try black powder in a bolt rifle, but won't in my double rifle.

As far as the second round not sustaining the recoil of the first, no issue, I can just load one at a time. Also for a dead buff test, no crimp or a taper crimp is fine.

JPK

jpk,
I don't know if they would fit in a bolt gun or not. I don't have one to try. Properly loaded, the cartridge will be 1.4" longer than the case alone. How does that work?

They could be loaded deeper in the case, but not much.

Why would you not try bp in your double rifle? It's much more reasonable in a gun like that than a bolt rifle.

A solution to the crimp issue may be to size the case and then do not expand it back out. With some dies and brass, that leaves a snug friction fit that will hold the bullet and brass together well enough.

Brent

If you load this paper patched bullet in a .458 Winchester case and fire it in a .458 Lott rifle, you might not have any trouble with it sticking 1.4" out the front of the case.

JPK,
No need to pay. I think its nice that you are even entertaining the concept. Hell, you might even like my bullets once you have fired them! I am a young man with a young family, and am looking at Africa down the road, but my wallet will not have Cape Buffalo on the menu. My bullets may as well go.
I have a couple of ideas, but they will involve cut and try, which seems the only option. Using 458 cases in a Lott chamber will give us some distance, plus throat length. By using 338 Win cases we will have a thinner neck, after expanding, and may be able to slip fit the paper patched bullets.
By using nitro for black + dacron filler, leading will not be an issue, even if rough rifling tears the patch. I can assist in how to do this, if we don't go the BP route. I even have a bunch of 338 cases.
I wouldn't worry about "soldering" your bore. The first jacketed bullet, or one of my bullets will clean it out, provided you don't let it plug up the grooves of your barrel. This will take numerous shots to do anyway.
Brent is correct. You can literally take Black and use it in any staightwall case, and not worry about pressure issues. Regulation is another matter, but it was done long before the know it alls appeared.
I will let you know when my mould shows. I usually takes a month.
Nate

Will contact a couole of people and get you some of the solid 405's Brian Pearce shot.

JB

You will however have just about zero accuracy as the patch is more than just unlikely to survive the trip through the chamber.

Add leading to that too.

I would like to add that both elephants and giraffe are suitable bullet testing media, in my experience.

so, are you volunteering a few of each?

Brent

Brent,
I am confused, Giraffe is a good medium, but American Bison, cattle are not?
This is why I proposed the Dacron filler. It may seal off blowby, and in my experience keeps the bullet well centered, as I have used it in numerous loads, going up to 50,000 psi with oversized throats, which is what we are dealing with.
If we are only hitting 1,300 ft., we may be able to prevent the base from riveting in this giant "throat". It is a matter of pressure. The bullet nose will be centered, we need to cushion the base. Even with BP in the std. chamber, we will still be fighting an oversized throat.
My concern is with the rifling, which might be hell on the patch, which is the lubricant. If the patch is ripped, and the bore is fairly slick, the dacron may prevent leading, and will at least keep the patch on the base. I have fired grooved diameter pills without lube with a good bore; no leading.
Like I said, it is cut and try, may even seem low tech, which may or may not appeal to you? I'm willing to try some bullets sized at land diameter, no lube, with dacron with similar alloy to see exactly if no leading and accuracy can be possible. Let me know. Maybe it just isn't possible?
Nate

If you've ever seen the musculo-skeletal composition of a giraffe or Cape, you could see the difference. American bison are definetly big animals, but like it's been alluded to before, they tend to be "flounder" shaped in they are much narrower and their structure not as robust but below's a good comparison of cattle & Cape, take special note of the shoulder/leg muscle structure. Not even close... jorge

Any comparison between Cape buffalo and American bison (or range cattle) is totally ridiculous, and from every standpoint of consideration............

AD

.....which is why I am confused as why someone would throw a giraffe into the equation!!! I have no delusions about the physiology of Cape Buffalo (you have confused me with someone else?), but if you are using mediums as a test I fail to see a difference between a giraffe and what I consider to be a "stouter" critter, at least closer to a Cape Buff. Jorge, get a picture of a Brahma bull or Hereford bull, not some Texas raghorn! (grins) They always have looked starved to me!
AD, do you know or have you talked to Ross Seyfried?

Hawk: Giraffes have huge bones in order to support all that weight. Further, they are considered "pachyderms" as their skin is very thick, somewhere around the 2" mark. Tose pictures we all I could find on short notice on another recent thread, but I'll try and get a Brahma as well. But hey, they all taste mighty good! jorge

Thanks Jorge! You guys definitely know the African critters, but I have seen some pretty huge domestic stuff! I've even capped a few! (And ate them of course)

Giraffe is the second or third largest land mammal - I hardly think it's the ideal test specimen for a cape buffalo gun, but whatever floats your boat if you're paying the ticket. Meanwhile cape buffalo don't even rank in the top ten I'm sure.

BTW, I have scraped raw giraffe hides and they aren't quite 2" thick. In fact, they really aren't even close, especially where you would be looking to shoot one. 1"? yes. 2"? No. Not on the chest cavity anyway.

As for bison and you guys who love to denigrate them for some reason, they still run 1/3-2/3 larger than a cape buffalo - Measure it anyway you want. Bison are bigger. And bone being bone, muscle being muscle, I don't think there is going to be many other differences. You anti-bison guys have any quantitative data? I don't have any giraffe hides handy at the moment, but I do just happen to have two axial skeletons from two small bison in my backyard right now. Gotta keep the beetles happy you know. Their legs were busted up 2 wks ago for an experiment, so I can't measure them, but there are a couple more coming eventually (March?)

Brent

Hmm. All of this very interesting, especially since I have seen both American bison and Cape buffalo shot with the same bullets at about the same muzzle velocity. Performance was pretty much the same in each case. In the .375 H&H, for instance, 300-grain Nosler Partitions will normally be found in the ribs or under the hide on the far side, when shot broadside on both species.

Bison may be narrower for their weight, but a mature bull usually outweighs a mature Cape buffalo by at least 500 pounds, and sometimes as much as 1000.

JB

It isn't just about size, it's about physical and mental toughness and the ability and willingness of Cape buffalo to turn the tables on you, and to kill you.

I've hunted bison as well as buffalo, and these animals don't think alike, they don't defend themselves in the same manner, nor do they have the same temperament.

Comparing Cape buffalo to bison is about like comparing a mountain grizzly to a black bear. Yes, they can both weight the same, and sometimes a black bear can soemtimes weigh even more than an average grizzly. But there is absolutely no comparison between these two animals in terms of toughness, tenacity, intellect or ability to kill. A bison is much more of a defensive animal. Violate the personal space of a Cape buffalo, and he turns into a totally OFFENSIVE animal. Big difference!

Same with comparing a mountain lion to an African leopard.......

When I was in college, I hung out with a bunch of farm-raised/ranch-raised kids who took a lot of the same classes I did. Two of these cowboys were particularly good friends of mine, and we got into a lot of mischief together. One of them was a very big, powerful guy, while the other one was short, thin, and wirey. That little guy was far, far tougher in every way than the big guy was, and he could (and did!) prove it against all comers. It wasn't that he was PHYSICALLY so very imposing, it was the fact that he was quick, fast, in good shape, knew exactly what he was doing, fearless, and was totally tough mentally. He THOUGHT he was tough, and so he was!

Cape buffalo are exactly the same way...........


AD

I've never shot a bison and don't even care to, so all I have to go is by what I glean from folks who've shot them and what I've read. In that regard, I'm just repeating what Terry Wieland said wrt to bison & Cape buffalo comparisons. Again from what I've read, there is just no comparison either anatomically, in terms of aggression or resiliency when it comes to absorbing punishment. In the early 1900s the Capes were almost wiped out by Rinderpest (some estimates put them as low as 95%) yet they practically came back on their own. Simply fantastic.
Further, the "flounder" analogy was Wiland's in the latest edition of the Gazette and makes sense. I didn't {sic} denigrate them in any way, but I have no interest in shooting one.

Not going to quibble about giraffe's skin thickness, but suffice to say they are considered true pachyderms so take that for what it's worth and their bone structure is huge, certainly bigger than a bison. jorge

...All animals that have been cleanly taken with the meager lead bullet? Perhaps even from a 45/70? Even tough guys don't live long with a 45 through the boiler. Even if they're on PCP.