Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer Article on the .308 Win.

I killed my first deer with an '06 way back in 1960. I didn't start shooting the .308 until the 90's after discovering what a great and effective round the 7X57 was with 140 gr. Nosler Partitions.
What I've concluded is that the .308 is at it's best as a short, light rifle. It does very well with 18-20 inch barrels and really light rifles shooting the lighter 125-165 gr. bullets.
The 30'06 seems to have more of an edge in a little longer barreled rifles shooting the heavier 180-200 gr. bullets.
I use two .308's. I'm very happy with them.
I'm ordering a 30'06 built. 23-24 inch barrel, Mauser action, MPI stock, at 7.25-7.5 lbs. Leupold 4X and 6X scopes. Tickles my fancy as a better elk rifle. To go along with my .280. E

This is a little off topic, but let me demonstrate my ignorance, AGW:

You say that "Sambar of course, usually and commonly, take a lot more shots to stop with the .308"

What is it about sambar that requires so much rifle? You mention that the 308 works fine on red deer and kudu, and I've found it to work well on moose (I've used 180 grain bullets). What's the story on sambar?

I've always liked the 308. It was the first rifle I was actually trained on (in the Army) but not the first one I owned.

They had very good accuracy potential, and the shorter action makes them stiffer (I'd think.) Until you get above 160 gr. (and I don't) I think the 308 is more efficient.

But, there's no arguing with the 30-06. For some purposes, not for mine, I guess it's better. Six of one, Six .000001 of another.

My first purchase out of college was a Browning BLR Lever Action in .308. I loved (and still do) the way it carried. I had been hunting with an old Lee Enfield .303 and my great grandfather's Marlin 1893 in .30-30. Next purchase was a Ruger 10-22 and third was a Ruger MK 1 .22 target pistol with the 6 7/8" barrel (killed LOTS of tree rats with those two).

I own three .308's and have gotten 70 whitetails with them, and have never felt undergunned with them. My two longest shots on deer have been with .308's (and both were clean, one-shot kills).

I remember Elmer Keith once wrote that he got invited to an antelope hunt and the One Shot Antelope Club provided him the rifle to use. It was a Ruger #1 in .308. He was NOT impressed and wanted something stouter, but used it reluctantly. But he got his antelope anyway. IIRC, he begrudgingly admitted that it was "adequate".

Sambar are a heavily built deer that appear at a glance to resemble a jersy cow, as their legs look short in relation to the bulk of their body size with a pronounced fat round belly.

They are preditor oriented and are a primary food source for tiger, leopard and hyena in India and other countries where they originate. This makes them very wary and cunning and the biggest difference is that they do not live as they did in their country of origin, where you will see both sambar an chital in herds in flat swamp country on the documentaries.

The sambar in Australia have adopted to the higher elevations of the Great Dividing Range (Blue Mountains)with its scrub choked fern gullies and thicker timbered mountains in the south east.

There is also a smaller herd in the Northern Territory on the Coburg Peninsula, but I have not hunted that herd and the antlers appear to grow less that the southern animals.

When shot, (if you are that lucky) they run like hell and will lay in water, under trees and scub and permit you to walk past them. They are extremely difficult to drop on the spot without a spine or head shot and even the major sambar authorities carry heavy rifles up to .458 loaded with 500 grain Woodleighs as they proved a little softer than equivalent Hornady's for these deer.

Sambar tax a hunter no matter how experienced and often you will go several years to get one, or between successes, even though you are among them and find sign and scent all around you.

Many hunters see one when they are stopped for a nature break and have their rifle leaning up against a tree, or when giving up for the day and walking and talking along a trail back to camp. Sometimes these deer will peek over a bush to see what the racket is even though you had no idea they were that close.

As I have said before, these are the hardest deer in the world to hunt. They dodge tigers a for living and a man is nothing. I would guess that more sambar are taken by luck and circumstance that by hunting them down and deliberately taking the shot. Some can do it, the majority never will.

This is one reason that even though the Victorian Government implemented a hunting licence for them, there is a 365 day hunting season. You will need it and several more on average.

AGW

I am already an ole slow grandpa, as I continue to slow down maybe I will be ready for a .308 in about 10 more years. :-)

As I mentioned above I haven't experienced 30-06's not liking full power loads with the three rifles I have but maybe I've been lucky.
As far as 308 goes, I own two of them, a left hand Remington 700 BDL with a glass bedded CDL stock and a Savage 99. Both are scoped. These two rifle, shooting the same RX15, 165 gr. bullet load are my favorite deer rifles. They are lighter than my 06's and kill deer just as well.

Doc

My 308 hunting rifle disagrees with you. I can hold on muley hair out to a little over 400 yds with Sierra 125 SP or 168 MK but get a lot more wind drift with the 125s.
I usually find it's silly to chase a few FPS.
Faithful Reader,

Yep, just tried some 130gr TSXs and got an average of 3053fps w/ 49gr IMR-4895 from a 22" barrel. Also getting 2921 w/ 46gr R15 behind 150gr Sierra Game Kings. Both of those are firmly in .270 territory. Can't wait to try 'em out on deer and pigs....

John

Lapua brass?

Yep. Lapua.

John

mathman or Hondo64d,

Please educate me - what is the significance of the Lapua brass? Is it just that mathman knows Hondo64d's reloading pattern well, or is there some particular reason mathman asked?

John and I both like Lapua brass, it's very well made and consistent, and we chat about our 308 developments now and then.

Also Lapua brass is a good bit thicker than the popular
Winchester brand and so it builds pressure and velocity quicker with somewhat smaller charges.

mathman

I haven't verified it for myself, but Lapua brass has the reputation of being thicker than most others, therefore less case capacity. As a result, takes less powder to reach a given velocity than other brass. At least that's the theory....

Wanted to add, that it seems to be really good quality stuff, with uniform neck thickness, resulting in very little runout.

John

Hondo,

My Lapua cases run about 18 grains heavier than my Winchesters, and the loaded round neck diameters are .337" for the Lapua vs. .332" for the Winchester.

Math

I thought you guys might be talking about brass thickness/volume since mathman's question was in response to some powder load and velocity data. Thanks for the info.

Thanks for sharing that, guys!

Aussie..,

You wrote, "There is also a smaller herd in the Northern Territory on the Coburg Peninsula, but I have not hunted that herd and the antlers appear to grow less that the southern animals."

This is way off the thread and no one's ever gone off thread before but ... Some biologist came up with a theory that the further north an animal was found, the bigger it grew. But that was north of the equator. So south of the equator, do they get bigger the furhter south you go, in your experience?

Forgive me I have sinned.

This cartridge is probably one of the few that I have never owned a rifle for. I have to say I am rather disappointed in myself for neglecting this pinnacle in military and sporting design. A friend of mine built a heavy barreled lunker a few years back on a then rare Rem 700 SA. I believe the barrel was an inexpensive Montana Rifleman Stainless 'water pipe' and McMillan A2. When we took it to the range for its original break in, we were blown away by the consistency and sub-half MOA accuracy. Though the rifle weighs 14lbs all kitted up, he was insistent that it was to be a hunting rifle, built for specific situations. Groups were amazing during break in, and due to the weight it was a pleasure to shoot. We eventually moved over to the metallic silhouettes to start developing a drop chart. Well the drop chart took minutes to develop as there was a bazillion programs on the inter-chat and books galore to assist in the guesstimations. . Being that we had a spotting scope along, the metallic rams were freshly painted and the wind had moved on bother other unfortunate people, it would have been a waste to leave the range with 50 rounds of ammo in the pocket.
We eventually found that it was child's play to mark the rams with 'eyes' at 500m! And as a bonus the conditions were perfect to develop vapor trails visible for the majority of the shots. I looked at my friend and told him that if he was planning on using this rifle to hunt it should be dubbed 'Safeway', as it would be as easy as going to the market for meat with this rifle. The name stuck and when our hunting group of friends refer to this rifle by that name, a tone of excitement and awe enters their voice.
Before I relate this next story, please understand that myself and my friend constantly practice and work with our firearms. We take the well being of our prey very seriously, and make every effort to get as reasonably close as we can to the animals, as we are HUNTERS not killers. And the terrain we regularly hunt deer is flat fields with little or no cover for miles at times.
This past fall I witnessed and amazing feat on the part of the .308 WIN and my friend. We were stalking some does that had entered some high grass in a field that had been known to hold some large bucks. Bucks are rarely harvested there as the terrain allows the animals to see you long before you see them and these deer often run at the sight of man at a mile or more.
We saw the does enter the grass with a spotting scope from quite a distance and had taken the time to make a slow stalk through some round bales beside a field road. When we approached the grass at about 500yds I could see a doe stand up and start moving around in the grass. The grass height only allowed you to see the top of the head and ears. I was about 100yds to the left of my friend in a rare patch of carrigana bushes, and he was behind a bale when I saw this. I assumed the doe had seen us as their postion was elevated, As she headed out the west side of the grass (my side)I saw a grand pair of antlers stand up and follow her. Oh no, Whitetail Buck! And we where in no position, as I could not see my friend and I was way farther away then my equipment and comfort one would allow me to think about shooting. I looked around, and was out of cover, period. I sat down at the edge of the brush and set up my rifle and sticks, hoping that my friend had seen the deer and was closer than I was. I ranged the doe as she stepped from the grass and stopped,...no range...no range...I tried about 100 yards closer...521....oh my. She was well out of my comfort zone with my new rifle. I knew how my loads shot out to 400yds very well, and that was my limit. At least I'd get to see this buck, and have something to dream about that night.
The buck cleared the grass and the doe ran, and I for the life of me cannot tell you were she went as that buck filled my view finder entirely. He was obviously the largest whitetail I had ever seen in that area, and I grew up less than 15 miles away. My feelings of elation quickly evaporated with the hot November weather as I realized that this buck was well out of range, and that doe would likely lead him in an inconsistent maze all over the county. The buck dropped his head to fill his nose with her scent and quickly jogged to the two-track in the field. He stopped like someone had yanked the leash, his ears nearly touching his belly-button under him. He spun around and whatever scent had grabbed his attention, he had his head down and buried in it. That was when I heard a sound very familiar, yet at the time,very shocking. I watched the buck bolt maybe a yard and then nose dive, teeth to turf, plowing the top soil with his mandible. He rolled into a nearby patch of uncut barley, and I quickly turned to my right to see my friend, cradling Safeway, doing the most uncoordinated happy dance I have ever seen. We both ran for that barley and met about 100yds short. He told me he saw the buck clear the grass just as he peeked over a bale. He had just gotten the range before the buck started to move. 600yds. He dialed in the Leupold and got a rest over the bale just as the buck stopped the second time, and by magic (and probably the incalculable amount of range time) steadied the cross hairs behind the bucks shoulder. The 165gr Accubond left the barrel as a surprise, and you know the rest.
The bullet jellied the lungs quite nicely and penetrated the bucks chest at a perfect forward angle. So much for the 308 Win, lacking long range power.
That rifle and cartridge were made for each other. The gentle recoil, inherent accuracy, and surprising power of the cartridge played a large part in the ability of the shooter to take such an extreme shot, and be responsibly successful.
I have a spot saved for the right 308 Win. when I find one. At the front of my gun safe.
Kinda long winded I know and the only relevance it has to JB's excellent article is, ever time I read that article ( I reread the Big Three often) this memory jumps to the front of my mind. And then, I again 'love' the .308 and 'hate' that I don't own one
AF

Please excuse the digression folks;

The Southern Hemisphere has no relevence to the Northern counterpart. The earth is divided in quarters and the Tropic of Cancer runs througfh Wisconsin elevation where as the Tropic of Capricorn runs through Rockhampton in Queensland to the south.

Wisconsin gets snow, "Rocky" never will. The water flows down the toilet anti clock wise in the north and clockwise in the south. There is no rule pertaining to animal size I know of for the northern hemisphere that applies in the southern hemishpere.

FYI,

Moose, Mule Deer, White tail, Fallow, Red, Chital, Sambar, Elk, Hog and Rusa were all introduced into Australia and New Zealand during the first years of the 20th century and those that were not shot out, thrived with odd rumors of the lost few still in folklore from time to time.

The size of some animals in the Southern Hemisphere has been manipulated by man in order to tap into the tourist hunter dollars.

N.Z. reds for example are way larger than their native homelands in Europe or Australia due to the turbo charged breakfast cereals provided. You will notice that there is truck loads of video footage of monster stags but never are there any hinds in those same pics. mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Time for me to butt out of this one.

AGW