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Here as well.

rb


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
GB1

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The rosary is a powerful and peaceful prayer. Meditation on Christ's life and his sacrifices. Takes about 20-30 minutes to do go around.



Me



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Cheaha,

Not trying to impress you, and what does "out of context" have to do with it? Nothing, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Foul mouth from a foul heart.







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Your abundance is showing. Thanks for sharing that...


James


But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. Mt 15:9
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Your welcome and I agree with you.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is desperately wicked: who can know it?"

I admit my own heart is wicked and I know it.

Thats why I'm not going to blast people here about there faith and beliefs and tell them it's from Satan. Nor set myself up as being a man of holiness who understands the full council of God.

Yeah, I've argued in the past about doctirne and am/was one of the worst to do so.

It did not edify anyone but my own ego.

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I also agree that all men and women are sinful including you and I.
That's my whole point, that we can't depend on man,any man. We must put our total faith in Jesus the Christ. He alone is the Author and finisher of my faith.

The author of the article that I "cut and pasted" believes that the Catholic Religion is from the Devil. I tend to agree with him but am willing to listen to both sides.

Rick's cut and paste above is interesting and I read it. Granted I don't believe a word of it and consider it heresy but I'm not blasting his (the author's) thoughts.

I much prefer to read the Bible and thru prayer and meditation, let God guide me, not man.

Here's an interesting link of a former Catholic Nun. What's wrong with hearing both sides and letting God guide you...

Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

July 2001

INTRODUCTION

Jesus said that the truth will set us free. (John 8:32) However, He did not say that the truth would necessarily be easy to accept. It was painful for me to learn the information that I am about to share with you, but it was also liberating and it led to a closer relationship with God.

As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I practiced Mary worship for many years without realizing it. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by good people, sincere people that I trusted. I prayed rosaries and wore a scapular and engaged in other "devotions" which I honestly thought were good and pleasing to God. Because of my lack of knowledge of the Bible and of Church history, I honestly had no idea that I was actually worshipping Mary.

If modern Catholic teachings and doctrines about Mary are true, then they will not be contrary to Scripture, the writings of the Early Fathers, or the decrees of past popes. For a devout Catholic to question these issues and put them to the test can be painful. It certainly was for me. However, it would be far more painful to have God correct us when we face Him on Judgment Day.

LETTING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SPEAK FOR ITSELF

I believe in letting people speak for themselves. Therefore my primary sources about Catholic doctrines and history come from the Catholic Church.

First and foremost is the official "Catechism of the Catholic Church" which was written for the purpose of summarizing the essential and basic teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It was approved by Pope John Paul II in 1992 and the English translation was released in 1994. The latest English edition was printed in 2000. Most of my other sources are either practicing Catholics or else former Catholics whose approach is loving and respectful and who have thoroughly documented their work.

When I cite the "Catechism" I will give paragraph numbers rather than page numbers. I will summarize what it says. If you want to see the paragraphs for yourself, there are two web sites with search engines for the "Catechism". (Their addresses are given in the Notes.) You can search by topic or by paragraph number. (Note 1)

Scripture quotations are from the King James Version of the "Holy Bible".

If you really want to understand Catholic teaching in the light of Scripture and the history of the Catholic church, then I strongly recommend reading the following two books. The authors are former Catholics who love and respect Catholics. They are gentle and respectful in their approach. (See the Bibliography for information about these books.)

"The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God" by James G. McCarthy. This book is easy to read, well documented, objective, and gentle. It is a comprehensive guide to Catholic beliefs, based on Catholic sources. It examines Catholic teachings in the light of Scripture.

"The Church of Rome at the Bar of History" by William Webster. This book compares modern Catholic doctrines with the teachings of the early Church.

For a good overview of Catholicism, I recommend the video "Catholicism: Crisis of Faith". A friend of mine said that in one hour, this video gave him a better understanding of Catholicism than he had received from a college course on the subject. This video is gentle and respectful. An annotated transcript is available on line. (Information about videos follows the Bibliography.)

WILL THE REAL CATHOLIC CHURCH
PLEASE STAND UP?

When I was in the convent, our mother superior told us about Catholics in Mexico who, in their devotion to Mary, were doing things that we would only do when worshipping God. We were concerned about this. We considered this practice to be unusual and unbalanced. We thought that the American practice of Catholicism was the true thing. However, many years later I realized that if you want to know what something really is, then look at how it behaves when it is in a position of power. In America, Catholics are in the minority. To see the true spirit behind Catholicism, watch what the Catholic Church does in countries where it is in power.

One place where the Catholic Church is strong is Spain, which is known for the Spanish Inquisition. I always thought that the Inquisition was ancient history. However, the last official Spanish execution for heresy occurred in 1826. A schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 2)

I always thought that abuses of power by the Catholic Church were something that happened long ago. However, look at the following example from the Philippines, where the Catholic Church is strong.

Beginning in 1948 there was a series of apparitions of Mary in the city of Lipa. These apparitions were sometimes accompanied by showers of rose petals and other supernatural phenomena. They occurred in a convent. The local bishop personally experienced a shower of rose petals and thereafter supported the apparitions. The media mocked the supernatural events in Lipa and street vendors sold phony "holy rose petals." In response to the bad publicity, the Vatican sent a Papal Administrator to take over the diocese where the apparitions occurred. He replaced the bishop and the mother superior. The nun who saw the apparitions was forced to leave the convent. The nuns were ordered to destroy all materials associated with the apparitions, including a statue. The convent was sealed and the nuns were not allowed to talk to anyone outside the convent. An official Commission of Inquiry was convened, which unanimously ruled that the apparitions were not valid. However, they did not interview anybody who had personal, first-hand knowledge of the events. Several of the bishops who were part of the Commission of Inquiry stated on their deathbeds that the Papal Administrator had forced them to sign the verdict by threatening to excommunicate them if they did not sign it. (Note 3)

After years of no longer being a Catholic, I attended a Catholic funeral. When I went into the church something hit me hard. It had always been there, but I had never noticed it before because I was used to it. There were statues of Mary and the saints. They looked solid, real, as if they represented people of power. Jesus only appeared as a helpless baby in Mary's arms, as a dead man nailed to a cross, and as little wafers of bread hidden inside a fancy box. Visually and emotionally the message was very clear - if you want real power, if you want someone who can do something for you, then go to Mary and the Saints.

DEVOTION TO MARY

If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)

Jesus said, "[W]here your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Luke 12:34) Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold. The web sites listed in the Notes show pictures of statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns. (Note 5) The statues in the pictures are replicas, and their crowns are ceramic and painted gold. But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.

Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary. For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold. In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds. It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones. It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds. (Note

In Sabana Grande, Puerto Rico, preparations are underway to construct a huge statue of Our Lady of the Rosary. Inside the base of the statue there will be chapels, conference rooms, apartments, a food court, and radio and TV stations. There will also be observation decks. This statue will be part of a 500-acre "Mystical City" complex. According to an article in "Caribbean Business," this statue "will top at 1,500 feet". According to an article by the Associated Press, the statue will be 305 feet high. (Note 7) The discrepancy in numbers can be explained by looking at the Statue of Liberty, which is a 151 foot statue on top of a 154 foot base. Some sources say that the Statue of Liberty is 305 feet high (which includes the height of the base) and some say that it is 151 feet high (which is the height of the actual statue). What we probably have in Sabana Grande is a 305 foot statue with a 1,200 foot base.

I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary. We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible. We sang songs in Mary's honor. We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her. These were small processions. At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises. (Note 8)

One popular prayer in Mary's honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.

For Catholics who are reading this, please try to overcome your familiarity with this text and really look at the words. Doesn't this sound like worship?

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. (Note 9)

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that "[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said, "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)

A lay movement called "Vox Populi" ("Voice of the People") gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have him officially declare that Mary is Co Redemptrix. Over six million signatures have been sent to him, representing 138 countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide. (Note 12)

The Catholic Church exalts Mary as an idealized, larger-than-life, perfect mother. However, the Bible shows that at one point Mary misunderstood Jesus' calling to the point that she thought He was insane and she tried to prevent Him from doing what God wanted Him to do. Look at Mark 3:20-34.

"And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.'" (Mark 3:20-21)

The New International Version says "His family". The New King James Version says "His own people." The King James Version says "his friends". According to "Strong's Greek/Hebrew Dictionary," the Greek word has a variety of meanings, including "kinsmen". However, we don't have to depend on the exact meaning of the word here because it will be made clear in verse 31. "Strong's" defines "lay hold on" as "to use strength, i.e. seize or retain". It defines "beside himself" as "become astounded, insane".

Verses 22 through 30 describe a confrontation between Jesus and the scribes. Then we get back to what is happening with the people who thought that Jesus was out of His mind and were so concerned that they were coming to "lay hold on him" (seize him).

"There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." (Mark 3:31-35)

CATHOLIC DOCTRINES ABOUT MARY
COMPARED WITH WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS

My sources for this section are the Bible and the "Catechism of the Catholic Church," which has numbered paragraphs. For the sake of simplicity and brevity, I will just say "Catechism" plus the number of the paragraph(s). For example, "'Catechism' 411, 493" means "'Catechism of the Catholic Church,' paragraphs numbered 411 and 493".

For each doctrinal category, I will indicate the Catholic doctrine, followed by the appropriate references from the "Catechism". I will follow this with quotations from the Bible which relate to the doctrine. The last book in the Bible is called "The Book of Revelation" in Protestant Bibles and "The Apocalypse" in Catholic Bibles. I will refer to it as "Revelation".

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION -- Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. ("Catechism" 490-492).

In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour". Mary knew that she needed a savior.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was first introduced by a heretic (a man whose teachings were officially declared to be contrary to Church doctrine). For centuries this doctrine was unanimously rejected by popes, Fathers and theologians of the Catholic Church. (Note 13)

ALL-HOLY - Mary, "the All-Holy," lived a perfectly sinless life. ("Catechism" 411, 493)

Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Revelation 15:4 says, "Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy". Romans 3:10 says, "There is none righteous, no, not one".

Jesus is the only person who is referred to in Scripture as sinless. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Peter 2:22 says, "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth".

In contrast, Mary said that God is her Savior. (Luke 1:47) If God was her Savior, then Mary was not sinless. Sinless people do not need a Savior.

In the Book of Revelation, when they were searching for someone who was worthy to break the seals and open the scroll, the only person who was found to be worthy was Jesus. Nobody else in Heaven or on earth (including Mary) was worthy to open the scroll or even look inside it. (Revelation 5:1-5)

PERPETUAL VIRGINITY - Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. ("Catechism" 496-511)

Matthew 1:24-25 says, "Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." "Till" (until) means that after that point, Joseph did "know" (have sexual relations with) Mary. (See Genesis 4:1 where Adam "knew" Eve and she conceived and had a son.)

Jesus had brothers and sisters. The Bible even tells us their names. Matthew 13:54-56 says,

"And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?"

Other Scripture verses which specifically refer to Jesus' brothers are: Matthew 12:46; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; and Galatians 1:19.

I was always taught that "brothers" and "sisters" were general terms that really could refer to any kind of kinsman, including cousins. This is true in the Hebrew language. However, the New Testament is written in Greek, which is an extremely precise language. It makes a clear distinction between the words used to describe family relationships. There is a Greek word which refers to people who are relatives but not of the immediate family, such as aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces and cousins. There are other Greek words which refer specifically to a person's brother or sister within a family. (Note 14)

MOTHER OF GOD - Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. ("Catechism" 963, 971, 2677).

The Incarnation means that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Mary was only the mother of Jesus as man, and not the mother of Jesus as God. According to the Bible, the world was created through Jesus. This was long before Mary was born. Hebrews 1:1-2 says,

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds".

Colossians 1:16-17 says,

"For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things [including Mary] were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things [including Mary] , and by him all things consist".

John 8:58 says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am." Jesus existed before Abraham was born. That means that He also existed before Mary was born. In John 17:5, Jesus says, "And now O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." So Jesus existed even before the world began. Jesus came first - not Mary.

MOTHER OF THE CHURCH - Mary is the Mother of the Church. ("Catechism" 963, 975).

Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.

"And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

Mary was probably in the Upper Room when the tongues of fire fell upon the 120 disciples. However, she is never mentioned again in the Book of Acts, which is our only historical record of how the Church was born. She is also not specifically identified in the epistles. Paul did send greetings to "Mary", but that was a common name. (In the Gospels and in the Book of Acts, she is referred to as "Mary the mother of Jesus" to distinguish her from other women named Mary.)

It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus' mother.

ASSUMPTION - At the end of her life, Mary was taken up ("assumed") body and soul into Heaven. ("Catechism" 966, 974)

There is no biblical reference to the assumption of Mary. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D., which is more than 100 years after Mary was born. (Surely Mary was more than ten years old when Jesus was conceived.) If Mary had been supernaturally assumed into Heaven, wouldn't John (the disciple that Mary lived with) have mentioned it? When Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven, the Bible recorded it. With Elijah it was recorded in some detail. (See Genesis 6:24 and 2 Kings 2:1 18.)

The Assumption of Mary was officially declared to be a dogma of the Roman Catholic faith in 1950. This means that every Roman Catholic is required to believe this doctrine without questioning it. However, as we will see, the teaching of the Assumption originated with heretical writings which were officially condemned by the early Church.

In 495 A.D., Pope Gelasius issued a decree which rejected this teaching as heresy and its proponents as heretics. In the sixth century, Pope Hormisdas also condemned as heretics those authors who taught the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. The early Church clearly considered the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary to be a heresy worthy of condemnation. Here we have "infallible" popes declaring something to be a heresy. Then in 1950, Pope Pius XII, another "infallible" pope, declared it to be official Roman Catholic doctrine. (Note 15)

CO-MEDIATOR - Mary is the Co-Mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions. ("Catechism" 968-970, 2677)

There is only one mediator and that is Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Hebrews 7:25 says,Wherefore he [Jesus] is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Ephesians 3:12 says, "In whom [Jesus} we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him."

If Jesus is constantly interceding for us and He is able to save us "to the uttermost," (utterly, completely) then He doesn't need Mary's help. If we can approach God with "boldness" and "confidence" because of our faith in Jesus, then we don't need Mary's help either.

QUEEN OF HEAVEN - God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. ("Catechism" 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. ("Catechism" 971, 2675)

Psalm 148:13 says, "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven." This makes it quite clear that only God's name (not Mary's) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)

When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus corrected them.

"And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:27-28)

In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, we are given a quite detailed picture of Heaven. God is seated on the throne, surrounded by 24 elders and four living creatures. The Lamb (Jesus) is standing in the center of the throne. Thousands upon thousands of angels circle the throne, singing God's praises. And Mary is not in the picture at all.

COMPARING CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ABOUT MARY
WITH MODERN GODDESS WORSHIP

Goddess worship is not ancient history. It is going on today. It is practiced in Wicca and a variety of modern pagan religions. (Wicca is a religion based on witchcraft. It involves goddess worship, rituals and spells.)

The credibility of goddess worship has been increased through its acceptance by university professors and its incorporation into textbooks. Wiccan doctrines are being promoted in publicly funded, accredited colleges and universities. Nursing school textbooks are overtly promoting goddess worship, including textbooks written by the National League for Nursing (an accrediting agency for nursing schools). (Note 16)

The following table compares the Mary of Roman Catholic theology and religious practice with the Biblical portrayal of Mary and with the goddess which is worshipped by Wiccans and modern pagans. My information about Wicca comes from the book "Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie" by Bill Schnoebelen (who was the high priest of a Wiccan coven before he became a Christian), the "World Book," the on-line version of "The Encyclopedia Brittanica," and numerous web sites. (Note 17) Descriptions of "Catholic Mary" come from Catholic doctrines (which were previously discussed) and my personal experience (which is described in the Appendix.).

BIBLICAL MARY

CATHOLIC MARY

THE GODDESS

Humble and obedient. Calls herself "the handmaid of the Lord."

The Pope officially gave Mary the title "Queen of Heaven" and established a feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven.

Wiccans call their goddess the "Queen of Heaven".

Knew she needed a savior: "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour." (Luke 1:47)

"Immaculate Conception" (Mary was conceived sinless, without original sin) and "All-Holy" (Mary lived a sinless life).

Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules.

Normal wife and mother who had other children.

"Perpetual Virginity" (Jesus' brothers and sisters are considered to be cousins).

Goddesses don't have human children.

No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person.

"Glorious Assumption" (Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven).

Goddesses don't die.

Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother.

Catholics are the adopted children of Mary. "Woman behold your son" (John 19:26) is taken to apply literally to every Catholic.

Witches are the adopted, "hidden children" of the Queen of Heaven.

Normal woman.

Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head.

Moon goddess.

Normal woman.

Supernatural (apparitions accompanied by miracles and healings).

Supernatural.

Points people to Jesus. Mary said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." (John 2:5)

Can make Jesus do things. A full page newspaper ad showing Mary and Jesus says, "He hasn't denied her anything in 2,000 years. What would you have her ask Him?" This is not official Catholic doctrine but it is a widespread attitude which is encouraged by pious literature.

Points to herself.

Wants to be worshipped.

Knew that she needed a savior. (Luke 1:47)

Apparitions of "Mary" have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. The Catholic Church has not officially approved of these practices, but it has also not discouraged them.

Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas).

Goddesses don't need a savior.

Goddess worship has infiltrated main-line Christian denominations. In November 1993, a Re Imagining Conference was held in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Most of the 2,000 participants were women. This ecumenical church conference was sponsored by and attended by members of over a dozen denominations, including Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists. They prayed to Sophia, the goddess of Wisdom, calling her their Creator. They did rituals for this goddess, including a communion service where bread and wine were replaced by milk and honey. They openly rejected the doctrines of the incarnation and the atonement. This conference was repeated in 1996, 1998 and 2000. (Note 18)

There are Wiccan web sites with web pages devoted to individual goddesses. The Virgin Mary is included among the goddesses of the following web sites: The Spiral Goddess Grove, The White Moon, and Goddess 2000. They consider Mary to be the "Divine Feminine" and say that for centuries, many people have "blended" their ancient goddesses with Mary. (Note 19)

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

How did modern Catholic doctrine about Mary wander so far away from the teachings of the Bible and the Early Fathers? Two reasons are the importance given to Church tradition and the doctrine of papal infallibility.

The Catholic Church officially states that Church tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. ("Catechism" 80, 84, 86, 97) The problem is that Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. ("Catechism" 78, 98, 113, 2650, 2661) It is nebulous. It keeps changing. You cannot find it written in one place. You can't really put your hands on exactly what it is.

The Early Fathers used Scripture as the standard against which they tested Church tradition. The modern Catholic doctrine that Church tradition is equal in authority with the Bible is contrary to the writings of the Early Fathers. (Note 20)

According to Jesus, Scripture is the plumb line for measuring everything else. He judged religious traditions by comparing them to Scripture. When religious traditions contradicted Scripture, he condemned them. This shows clearly that nothing is equal in authority to Scripture. The Bible stands alone as the standard by which all other things are to be judged.

"Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mark 7:1-13)

According to the official teaching of the Catholic Church, Catholic men and women are not allowed to believe what they read in the Bible without checking it out with the Catholic Church. They are required to find out how the bishops of the Church interpret a passage and they are to accept what the bishops teach as if it came from Jesus Christ Himself. They are not allowed to use their own judgment or follow their own conscience. They are required to believe whatever the bishops teach without questioning it. ("Catechism" 85, 87, 100, 862, 891, 939, 2034, 2037, 2041, 2050)

The Catholic Church teaches that when the bishops officially teach doctrine relating to faith and morals, then God supernaturally prevents them from making any errors. This is called "infallibility". It applies to official councils, such as the Second Vatican Council. It also applies to other teachings, as long as the bishops and the Pope are in agreement about them. ("Catechism" 890, 891, 939, 2033, 2034, 2049)

The Pope is said to be infallible whenever he makes an official decree on matters of faith and morals. According to Catholic doctrine, it is impossible for the Pope to teach false doctrine. Catholics are expected to obey the Pope without question even when he is not making an "infallible" statement about doctrine. They are expected to submit their wills and minds to the Pope without question. ("Catechism" 892, 2037, 2050)

The Early Fathers, and the theologians and canon lawyers of the Middle Ages, never taught that the bishops or the Pope were infallible. This is demonstrated by the fact that in 680 A.D. the Sixth Ecumenical Council condemned a pope as a heretic. It was not until the fourteenth century that the theory of infallibility began to emerge. With the development of this theory came a change in the interpretation of some biblical passages. (Note 21)

The history of the early Church shows that the Bishop of Rome was considered to be just another bishop. For example, Pope Gregory (590-604 A.D.) explicitly stated that all of the bishops were equal. He specifically repudiated the idea that any one bishop could be the supreme ruler of the Church. (Note 22)

The claim for papal infallibility does not stand up to the test of history. For example, Pope Zosimus (417-418 A.D.) reversed the pronouncement of a previous pope. He also retracted a doctrinal pronouncement that he himself had previously made. Pope Honorious was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council (680-681 A.D.). He was also condemned as a heretic by Pope Leo II, as well as by every other pope until the eleventh century. So here we have "infallible" popes condemning another "infallible" pope as a heretic. In 1870, the First Vatican Council abolished "infallible" papal decrees and the decrees of two "infallible" councils. (Note 23)

In the seventeenth century, the Catholic church officially condemned Galileo as a heretic because he taught that the earth revolves around the sun. This did not conflict with the Bible or with the teachings of the Early Fathers. However, it was contrary to seventeenth century Catholic theology. The Greek philosopher Aristotle taught that the sun revolves around the earth. Aristotle influenced Thomas Aquinas, a thirteenth century theologian and "doctor of the Church" whose theology had a major impact on the Catholic Church. Some modern astronomers believe that Galileo was right. Others believe that Einstein's theory of relativity makes the question irrelevant. (Note 24) Either way, Galileo was not a heretic for disagreeing with Aristotle. The "infallible" pronouncement of the Catholic Church regarding Galileo's teaching was wrong.

Most people have heard of "papal bulls" and "infallibility". Have you ever seen what a papal bull actually looks like?

On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX declared the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. After defining the dogma, the Pope said that if any person dares to "think otherwise than as has been defined by us" they thereby shipwreck their faith, are cut off from the Church, and stand condemned because of it. The Pope went on to say that if any person says, or writes, or in any other way outwardly expresses "the errors he thinks in his heart," then they thereby "subject themselves to the penalties established by law". (Note 25 gives a link to this papal bull. You can read it for yourself.)

The Pope's reference to legal penalties is significant because a man had been executed for heresy 28 years before this papal bull was issued. In 1826, a Spanish schoolmaster was hanged because he substituted the phrase "Praise be to God" in place of "Ave Maria" ("Hail Mary") during school prayers. (Note 26)

MARIAN APPARITIONS

On May 13, 1981, a man shot Pope John Paul II. As the ambulance carried him to the hospital, the Pope kept praying, "Mary, my mother! Mary, my mother!" One year later, the Pope made a pilgrimage to Fatima to thank Our Lady of Fatima for saving his life and to consecrate the entire human race to her. (Note 27) The video "Catholicism: Crisis of Faith" shows the Pope kissing the feet of a statue of Mary. (Note 28)

Millions of pilgrims go to shrines which honor apparitions of Mary. Every year fifteen to twenty million pilgrims go to Guadalupe in Mexico, five and a half million go to Lourdes in France, five million go to Czestochowa (Jasna Gora) in Poland, and four and a half million go to Fatima in Portugal. Special dates draw huge crowds. On August 15, half a million pilgrims go to Czestochowa. On October 13, a million people go to Fatima. On December 12, 1999, five million pilgrims went to Mexico to honor Our Lady of Guadalupe. (Note 29)

Are these pilgrims worshipping Mary? You can observe them and see for yourself, thanks to a video entitled "Messages from Heaven". (Information about this video is given following the Bibliography.)

If you watch the video, you will see the Pope bow in front of a painting of Mary and cover the area with incense. You will see a million pilgrims walking in a procession, following a statue of Our Lady of Fatima and singing songs in her honor. You will see several million people in a procession following a painting of Our Lady of Guadalupe. You will see people weeping and raising their arms towards Mary. You will see the largest assembly of bishops and cardinals since the Second Vatican Council, gathered together to join Pope John Paul II in solemnly consecrating the entire world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

CONCLUSION

Proverbs 14:12 says, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Our minds can be deceived and so can the minds of bishops and popes. Only the Bible is totally trustworthy. When religious traditions conflict with the plain meaning of Scripture then we need to discard those traditions. We cannot afford to do otherwise, because our eternal destiny is at stake.

The Apostles told the religious leaders of their day, "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29b) As an old hymn says, "On Christ the solid rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand."

If you are not persuaded that Catholicism encourages and even requires a level of "devotion" to Mary that really is a form of worship, then I challenge you to ask God what He thinks about it. If you are sincere in your prayer and open to letting God show you the truth, then He will.

APPENDIX

Catholic theologians speak of three degrees of homage, which have Latin words. "Latria" is the kind of worship which is due to God alone. "Dulia" is appropriate for honoring the saints. "Hyperdulia" is appropriate for honoring Mary. It is higher than "dulia" but not "latria". Therefore, Catholic theologians say that Catholics do not worship Mary.

However, in the practical, down-to-earth, real world, these theological distinctions don't work. Most Catholics have never heard of these words. Of those who have, how many know how to apply them in practical ways? Catholics are not told how to engage in "hyperdulia" without crossing a line that results in actually practicing "latria" towards Mary without realizing it.

When asked about praying to Mary and the saints, I always used to say that actually I was just asking them to pray for me, like I would ask a friend. Well, that is not really accurate, because when I talk to my friends I am not talking to people who have died. Also, I just ask them directly for what I want. I would never begin talking to my friends by saying something like: "Hail holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve."

I personally participated in many kinds of Marian devotions. ("Marian" means something relating to the Virgin Mary.) I prayed the Rosary, which uses beads to keep track of the prayers. There are ten "Hail Mary's" for every "Our Father" (the Lord's Prayer). The words of the Hail Mary are: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Plus there are some other traditional prayers at the beginning of the Rosary, including the "Hail Holy Queen".

I wore the Brown Scapular (two pieces of cloth attached with strings, worn in honor of Mary). I also wore the Miraculous Medal. Both the Brown Scapular and the Miraculous Medal resulted from apparitions of Mary. There are special prayers associated with them. The apparitions of Mary promised to help people who were faithful to these devotions. I went to special services where we recited litanies (a series of titles honoring her), prayed to her, and sang songs in her honor, or else recited the words of the songs. I participated in a procession where people carried a statue of Mary, and we all followed it, singing songs in her honor. I visited several Marian shrines. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of some day going to Lourdes.

I did not realize that what I was doing was actually a form of worship. I thought that it was pleasing to God. I thought that Jesus wanted us to honor His mother in this way.

CONTACTS

To contact the author, send an e-mail message to MaryAnnCollinsjuno.com.

If you would like to discuss specific issues, please contact the following ministry. The members are former Catholics. Their approach is loving, respectful and well informed. Their web site has many documents which you can print, including an annotated transcript of the video "Catholicism: Crisis of Faith". Some of their documents are also available in Spanish.

Good News for Catholics
P.O. Box 595
Cupertino, CA 95015
E-mail: gnfcgnfc.org
Web Site: http://www.gnfc.org

USING THIS ARTICLE

You have my permission to post this article on your web site and to link to it. You have my permission to copy it, quote it, translate it into other languages, and incorporate it into publications of your own. You have my permission to distribute it, including selling it for profit. I do not want any fees or royalties or financial remuneration of any kind.

The information in this article is the result of many years of personal struggle and search for truth. I want to make it as easy as possible for people to get this information and to pass it on to anyone who might be helped by it.

May the Lord bless, guide, and reveal His truth to everyone who reads this article.

Mary Ann Collins
July 1, 2001

BIBLIOGRAPHY

Aardsma, Gerald E. "Geocentricity and Creation", "Vital Articles on Science/Creation," July 1994, Impact No 253. Santee, California: Institute of Creation Research. It is available on line at http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-253.htm.

Anderson, James (Associated Press). "Giant statue of Mary part of shrine plan," "Lexington Herald-Leader," July 17, 1999. This is on-line with two different titles
http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/071799/faithdocs/shrine17.htm and www.star-telegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:RELIGION64/1:RELIGION64071699.html

Beauclair, Steve. "Skyscraper statue slated for Sabana Grande; $42 million Virgin Mary part of Mystical City," "Caribbean Business," February 26, 1998 (Late News cover story).

Bloesch, Donald G. "Essentials of Evangelical Theology," Vol. I. San Francisco, California: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1982. The author is an evangelical Christian. He quotes some papal encyclicals.

"Catechism of the Catholic Church". Washington, DC: U.S. Catholic Conference, 2000. This book comes in numerous editions and languages. Because it has numbered paragraphs, statements can be accurately located in spite of the variety of editions.

Davis, Philip G. "Goddess Unmasked: The Rise of Neopagan Feminist Spirituality". Dallas, Texas: Spence Publishing Company, 1998. This book can be ordered directly from the publisher (888 773 6782).

Heintz, Peter. "A Guide to Apparitions of Our Blessed Virgin Mary," Part I, 20th Century Apparitions. Sacramento, California: Gabriel Press. This is a Catholic book. It covers 60 apparitions in detail. It is methodical, with 33 categories of information for every apparition. The book is out of print. According to the publisher (who is now out of business), copies of the book were sent to major Marian institutions. The book can be obtained from the following web site: http://www.marianland.com/101../books.html

Hunt, Dave. "A Woman Rides the Beast". Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1994.

Johnson, Paul. "A History of Christianity". New York: Simon & Schuster, a Touchstone Book, 1995. The author is Catholic.

McCarthy, James G. "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God". Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1995. The author is a former Catholic.

"Queenship Jubilee Year 2000 Catalog". Queenship Marian Center for World Peace. This is a Catholic publication. The catalog has a section called "Vox Populi" where they promote books which support the doctrine that Mary is our Advocate, Mediator, and Co-Redemptrix. They promote petitions asking the Pope to officially give Mary those titles. They promote an inexpensive pamphlet (for wide distribution) which supports those doctrines. They also summarize the status of the petition, giving numbers of people who have signed it, and the numbers of cardinals and bishops that support the doctrines.

Schnoebelen, Bill. "Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie". Chino, California: Chick Publications, 1990. Before his conversion to Christianity, the author was the high priest of a Wiccan coven for over 12 years. He taught and initiated hundreds of Wiccan novices. He shows the truth behind "white" witchcraft and "Earth Religion" including insights which trace the epidemic of child abuse directly to the root of the rapid spread of Wicca.

Tetlow, James. "Messages from Heaven". This book is scheduled to be published in the summer of 2001. It can be ordered by phone (877-370 7770). James Tetlow is a former Catholic. In doing the research for this book, he read literally hundreds of Catholic books about Marian apparitions.

Webster, William. "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History". Carlisle, Pennsylvania: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1996. The author is a former Catholic.

VIDEOS

"Catholicism: Crisis of Faith". Lumen Productions, P.O. Box 595, Cupertino, CA 95015. ISBN Number 0-962-9152-0-3. This video was produced by James G. McCarthy, a former Catholic and the founder of Good News for Catholics. It covers a wide range of issues, including Mary. You can order it through D&K Press (800-777 8839). An annotated transcript of the English version, with 83 footnotes, is available on line at http://www.gnfc.org/transcript.html Information about foreign language versions is available at http://www.gnfc.org/ccf.html

"Messages from Heaven". Eternal Productions, P.O. Box 324, Fairport, NY 14450. ISBN Number 1-57341-119-1. This video deals primarily with apparitions of Mary. It also deals with UFOs and angels. The producer is a former Catholic who has read literally hundreds of Catholic books about Marian apparitions. You can order the video by phone at D&K Press (800-777 8839) or at LaBarge Media (877-370 7770).

NOTES

1. http://www.christusrex.org/www2/kerygma/ccc/searchcat.html and http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm This second address didn't always work for me. If you have a problem with it, then go to http://www.scborromeo.org and click under "Must Know" where it says "The Catechism of the Catholic Church". If these addresses don't work for you, then you can do an Internet search for "catechism + Catholic".

2. Paul Johnson, "A History of Christianity," page 308. Paul Johnson is a prominent historian and a Catholic.

3. Peter Heintz, "A Guide to Apparitions of Our Blessed Virgin Mary," pages 151-164. The author is a Catholic. The following web site gives a brief summary of the events, including the rose petals, but it fails to mention the forceful Church politics involved: http://198.62.75.1/www1/apparitions/pr00013.htm

4. James G. McCarthy, "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God," pp. 181-184; 199-200.

5. http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/Products/fatimachild22.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/Products/fatimag45.JPG
http://www.pacificheritage.com/images/Products/Lo90.JPG

6. Dave Hunt, "A Woman Rides the Beast," pages 239-240.

7. Steve Beauclair, "Skyscraper statue slated for Sabana Grande; $42 million Virgin Mary part of Mystical City," "Caribbean Business," February 26, 1998 (Late News cover story). James Anderson (Associated Press), "Giant statue of Mary part of shrine plan," " Lexington Herald-Leader," July 17, 1999. This article is available on-line at http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/071799/faithdocs/shrine17.htm
Steve Beauclair's article is quoted in James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1. (I read a pre-publication manuscript and therefore don't know what page this information will occur on when the book is published.)

8. James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1.

9. William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," page 87.

10. In the Encyclical "Intersodalicia" (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology," Vol. 1, page 196.

11. In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, "Essentials of Evangelical Theology", Vol. 1, page 196.

12. "Queenship Jubilee Year 2000 Catalog," page 92. This is a catalog of the Queenship Marian Center for World Peace, which promotes the doctrine of Mary as Advocate, Mediator, and Co Redemptrix. It also promotes the petition. The catalog gives information about the petition's progress, and about church leaders who support the doctrine.

13. William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," pages 72-77.

14. William Webster, pages 79-80.

15. William Webster, pages 81-85.

16. Philip G. Davis, "Goddess Unmasked: The Rise of Neopagan Feminist Spirituality," pages 29-33. The author is a university professor who wrote this book because of his concern about Wiccan teaching at his university.

17. "World Book, Millennium 2000" is a CD-ROM by IBM. For information about Wicca, see "Contemporary Witchcraft," an article from the on line version of "The Encyclopedia Brittanica" which describes Wicca: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=115001&tocid=214884

18. Philip G. Davis, pages 3-4 and 28-29. An on line report (with photographs) of the 1998 conference is available at http://www.layman.org/layman/news/reimagining revival.htm Dates of follow-up conferences are given at http://www.rexp.com/rc.html

19. http://www.goddess2000.org/Mary.html
http://www.thewhitemoon.com/mary/main.html
http://www.spiralgoddess.com/Mary.html

20. William Webster, "The Church of Rome at the Bar of History," pages 22-33. For a description of how pious practices can become official Catholic doctrine, and how this conflicts with both Scripture and the writings of the Early Fathers, see James G. McCarthy, "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God," pages 281-309.

21. William Webster, pages 34-55.

22. William Webster, pages 56-63.

23. William Webster, pages 63-71.

24. Gerald E. Aardsma, "Geocentricity and Creation," "Vital Articles on Science/Creation" July 1994. Information about Aristotle's influence on Thomas Aquinas comes from a class on Metaphysics which I took at a Catholic college.

25. "Ineffabilis Deus" ("Apostolic Constitution on the Immaculate Conception"). Encyclical of Pope Pius IX issued December 8, 1854. Near the end of this papal bull there is a section entitled "The Definition". The statements that I described are in the last paragraph of that section. Following are links to two web sites which quote this bull in its entirety.
http://www.newadvent.org/docs/pi09id.htm
http://www.geocities.com/papalencyclicals/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

26. Paul Johnson, "A History of Christianity," page 308.

27. James G. McCarthy, "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God", pages 181-184 and 199-200.

28. This video covers a broad range of topics, including Mary. The producer is a former Catholic.

29. James Tetlow, "Messages from Heaven," Chapter 1. Mr. Tetlow also produced a video with the same title. If you can afford to get both, I would recommend it. The book gives a lot of information and it is thoroughly documented. The author is a former Catholic. The book and video are respectful and gentle in their approach.


Copyright 2001 by Mary Ann Collins.
E-MAIL: MaryAnnCollinsjuno.com
www.CatholicConcerns.com

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James


But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. Mt 15:9
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I would say that the lady was poorly Catechized. And I would suggest that it is just more anti-Catholic hate-talk. It seems that we've had a plethora of that lately.

Funny how you can find anti-anything on the web. I pity those who are so full of hatred that they have to post the vile stuff.

But that's just me.

Steve


"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397







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Going to anti-Catholic websites and posting their content as a representation of the "truth" of Catholicism is akin to going to Handgun Control Inc. or PETA and posting their take on Second Amendment Rights or the ethics of hunting and fishing as the "truth."

You cannot comment intelligently on that of which you remain ignorant. But that's stating the obvious.

rb







"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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I found it interesting and well thought out. Course, I also found that by reading my Bible, the Truth becomes clear. I pity those who blindly follow the commandments of men while ignoring the Bible but that's just me...

Oh well, I'll leave you to "The pope At The Campfire". It's been real...


James


But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. Mt 15:9
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Happy trails, and best of luck.

Rick


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
IC B3

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"Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

gotta call time out on this reference. the infant in elizabeth and elizabeth called mary blessed because she had the honor of carrying the Christ child, NOT because she was special in any other way.

ol' ken howell once made a sage suggestion here. he suggested we believers sit down and read ONLY the words printed in red, ONLY the very words spoken by the Word. i'm pretty sure Jesus did NOT exalt mary above any other believer. while on the cross, Jesus DID tell john to take good care of her, as any of us would have done.

suggestion: when doctrine starts getting folks upset, how 'bout each of us stop, pray and consider how Jesus addressed such issues ... it's an eye-opener, my brothers.


abiding in Him,

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Check These out.

Matthew 12:46-50

Matthew 13:55-56

Mark 3:31-35


"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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It seems Catholics must continue to defend what they believe. I wonder why the persistent insistence on undermining the Catholic church. I guess some people feel they must tear down in order to raise THEMSELVES up.

How about you raise JESUS up and act as an authority to enlighten us on YOUR denomination instead of acting as an authority on Catholicism?




The Brethren of the Lord

A group of persons closely connected with the Saviour appears repeatedly in the New Testament under the designation "his brethren" or "the brethren of the Lord" (Matthew 12:46, 13:55; Mark 3:31-32, 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12, 7:3-5; Acts 1:14; 1 Corinthians 9:5). Four such "brethren" are mentioned by name in the parallel texts of Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 (where "sisters" are also referred to), namely, James (also mentioned Galatians 1:19), Joseph, or Joses, Simon, and Jude; the incidental manner in which these names are given, shows, however, that the list lays no claim to completeness.

Two questions in connexion with these "brethren" of the Lord have long been, and are still now more than ever, the subject of controversy: (1) The identity of James, Jude, and Simon; (2) the exact nature of the relationship between the Saviour and his "brethren".

(1) The identity of James, Jude and Simon
James is without doubt the Bishop of Jerusalem (Acts 12:17, 15:13, 21:18; Galatians 1:19; 2:9-12) and the author of the first Catholic Epistle. His identity with James the Less (Mark 15:40) and the Apostle James, the son of Alpheus (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18), although contested by many Protestant critics, may also be considered as certain. There is no reasonable doubt that in Galatians 1:19: "But other of the apostles [besides Cephas] I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord", St. Paul represents James as a member of the Apostolic college. The purpose for which the statement is made, makes it clear that the "apostles" is to be taken strictly to designate the Twelve, and its truthfulness demands that the clause "saving James" be understood to mean, that in addition to Cephas, St. Paul saw another Apostle, "James the brother of the Lord" (cf. Acts 9:27). Besides, the prominence and authority of James among the Apostles (Acts 15:13; Galatians 2:9; in the latter text he is even named before Cephas) could have belonged only to one of their number. Now there were only two Apostles named James: James the son of Zebedee, and James the son of Alpheus (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13). The former is out of the question, since he was dead at the time of the events to which Acts 15:6 ssq., and Galatians 2:9-12 refer (cf. Acts 12:2). James "the brother of the Lord" is therefore one with James the son of Alpheus, and consequently with James the Less, the identity of these two being generally conceded. Again, on comparing John 19:25 with Matthew 27:56, and Mark 15:40 (cf. Mark 15:47; 16:1), we find that Mary of Cleophas, or more correctly Clopas (Klopas), the sister of Mary the Mother of Christ, is the same as Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joseph, or Joses. As married women are not distinguished by the addition of their father's name, Mary of Clopas must be the wife of Clopas, and not his daughter, as has been maintained. Moreover, the names of her sons and the order in which they are given, no doubt the order of seniority, warrant us in identifying these sons with James and Joseph, or Joses, the "brethren" of the Lord. The existence among the early followers of Christ of two sets of brothers having the same names in the order of age, is not likely, and cannot be assumed without proof. Once this identity is conceded, the conclusion cannot well be avoided that Clopas and Alpheus are one person, even if the two names are quite distinct. It is, however, highly probable, and commonly admitted, that Clopas and Alpheus are merely different transcriptions of the same Aramaic word Halphai. James and Joseph the "brethren" of the Lord are thus the sons of Alpheus.

Of Joseph nothing further is known. Jude is the writer of the last of the Catholic Epistles (Jude 1). He is with good reason identified by Catholic commentators with the "Judas Jacobi" ("Jude the brother of James" in the Douay Version) of Luke 6:16 and Acts 1:13, otherwise known as Thaddeus (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18). It is quite in accordance with Greek custom for a man to be distinguished by the addition of his brother's name instead of his father's, when the brother was better known. That such was the case with Jude is inferred from the title "the brother of James", by which he designates himself in his Epistle. About Simon nothing certain can be stated. He is identified by most commentators with the Symeon, or Simon, who, according to Hegesippus, was a son of Clopas, and succeeded James as Bishop of Jerusalem. Some identify him with the Apostle Simon the Cananean (Matthew 10:4; Mark 3:18) or the Zealot (Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13). The grouping together of James, Jude or Thaddeus, and Simon, after the other Apostles, Judas Iscariot excepted, in the lists of the Apostles, (Matthew 10:4-5; Mark 3:18; Luke 6:16; Acts 1:13) lends some probability to this view, as it seems to indicate some sort of connexion between the three. Be this as it may, it is certain that at least two of the "brethren" of Christ were among the Apostles. This is clearly implied in 1 Cor 9:5: "Have we not the power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" The mention of Cephas at the end indicates that St. Paul, after speaking of the Apostles in general, calls special attention to the more prominent ones, the "brethren" of the Lord and Cephas. The objection that no "brethren" of the Lord could have been members of the Apostolic college, because six months before Christ's death they did not believe in Him (John 7:3-5), rests on a misunderstanding of the text. His "brethren" believed in his miraculous power, and urged him to manifest it to the world. Their unbelief was therefore relative. It was not a want of belief in His Messiahship, but a false conception of it. They had not yet rid themselves of the Jewish idea of a Messiah who would be a temporal ruler. We meet with this idea among the Apostles as late as the day of the Ascension (Acts 1:6). In any case the expression "his brethren" does not necessarily include each and every "brother", whenever it occurs. This last remark also sufficiently answers the difficulty in Acts 1:13-14, where, it is said, a clear distinction is made between the Apostles and the "brethren" of the Lord.

(2) The exact nature of the relationship between the Saviour and his "brethren"
The texts cited at the beginning of this article show beyond a doubt that there existed a real and near kinship between Jesus and His "brethren". But as "brethren" (or "brother") is applied to step-brothers as well as to brothers by blood, and in Scriptural, and Semitic use generally, is often loosely extended to all near, or even distant, relatives (Genesis 13:8, 14:14-16; Leviticus 10:4; 1 Chronicles 15:5-10, 23:21-22), the word furnishes no certain indication of the exact nature of the relationship. Some ancient heretics, like Helvidius and the Antidicomarianites, maintained that the "brethren" of Jesus were His uterine brothers the sons of Joseph and Mary. This opinion has been revived in modern times, and is now adopted by most of the Protestant exegetes. On the orthodox side two views have long been current. The majority of the Greek Fathers and Greek writers, influenced, it seems, by the legendary tales of apocryphal gospels, considered the "brethren" of the Lord as sons of St. Joseph by a first marriage. The Latins, on the contrary, with few exceptions (St. Ambrose, St. Hilary, and St. Gregory of Tours among the Fathers), hold that they were the Lord's cousins. That they were not the sons of Joseph and Mary is proved by the following reasons, leaving out of consideration the great antiquity of the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. It is highly significant that throughout the New Testament Mary appears as the Mother of Jesus and of Jesus alone. This is the more remarkable as she is repeatedly mentioned in connexion with her supposed sons, and, in some cases at least, it would have been quite natural to call them her sons (cf. Matthew 12:46; Mark 3:31; Luke 8:19; Acts 1:14). Again, Mary's annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem (Luke 2:41) is quite incredible, except on the supposition that she bore no other children besides Jesus. Is it likely that she could have made the journey regularly, at a time when the burden of child-bearing and the care of an increasing number of small children (she would be the mother of at least four other sons and of several daughters, cf Matthew 13:56) would be pressing heavily upon her? A further proof is the fact that at His death Jesus recommended His mother to St. John. Is not His solicitude for her in His dying hour a sign that she would be left with no one whose duty it would be to care for her? And why recommend her to an outsider if she had other sons? Since there was no estrangement between Him and His "brethren", or between them and Mary, no plausible argument is confirmed by the words with which he recommends her: ide ho uios sou, with the article before uios (son); had there been others sons, ide uios sou, without the article, would have been the proper expression.

The decisive proof, however, is that the father and mother of at least two of these "brethren" are known to us. James and Joseph, or Joses, are, as we have seen, the sons of Alpheus, or Clopas, and of Mary, the sister of Mary the Mother of Jesus, and all agree that if these are not brothers of the Saviour, the others are not. This last argument disposes also of the theory that the "brethren" of the Lord were the sons of St. Joseph by a former marriage. They are then neither the brothers nor the step-brothers of the Lord. James, Joseph, and Jude are undoubtedly His cousins. If Simon is the same as the Symeon of Hegesippus, he also is a cousin, since this writer expressly states that he was the son of Clopas the uncle of the Lord, and the latter's cousin. But whether they were cousins on their father's or mother's side, whether cousins by blood or merely by marriage, cannot be determined with certainty. Mary of Clopas is indeed called the "sister" of the Blessed Virgin (John 19:25), but it is uncertain whether "sister" here means a true sister or a sister-in-law. Hegesippus calls Clopas the brother of St. Joseph. This would favour the view that Mary of Clopas was only the sister-in-law of the Blessed Virgin, unless it be true, as stated in the manuscripts of the Peshitta version, that Joseph and Clopas married sisters. The relationship of the other "brethren" may have been more distant than that of the above named four.

The chief objection against the Catholic position is taken from Matt 1:25: "He [Joseph] knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son"; and from Luke 2:7: "And she brought forth her firstborn son". Hence, it is argued, Mary must have born other children. "Firstborn" (prototokos), however, does not necessarily connote that other children were born afterwards. This is evident from Luke 2:23, and Ex 13:2-12 (cf. Greek text) to which Luke refers. "Opening the womb" is there given as the equivalent of "firstborn" (prototokos). An only child was thus no less "firstborn" than the first of many. Neither do the words "he knew her not till she brought forth" imply, as St. Jerome proves conclusively against Helvidius from parallel examples, that he knew her afterwards. The meaning of both expressions becomes clear, if they are considered in connexion with the virginal birth related by the two Evangelists


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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MR. Day,
Very well said sir ! MY family was led to our Church home in a somewhat different way, but the search had simmilar ups and downs.We were both brought up in non Chistian homes, but we kept hearing Him calling to us and aksing us to let Him in. One day BigMama asked me if we could start looking for a church to go to. We tried all the local ones and found something that seemed not quite "right" in our view. Finaly one Sunday morning We walked into the last church in imediate area that we had not tried. The first person we see is the Real estate agent that sold us our house a couple years before. He came over and welcomed us as did many others that had never met us until that very moment. It was Christian love beign poured out on us and we quickly felt at home. Then when the Pastor came out we were floored to find it was the man who lives 2 doors down from us!! the teachings of this Pastor and all conected to our church are solidly based in Biblical truth,Glorifying JEsus Christ as the one and only Saviour ! and yes we do "proof it" against the Boook itself.

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