Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

The Warne and LeupoldMark4 are both solid steel, same high quality, 20-MOA Picatinny rails.
The Warne fits the top of receiver with no over-hang or under-hang of receiver top at either end.
The Leupold Mark4 comes with a set of both 8x40 and 6x48 screws, but under-hangs rear of receiver and over-hangs front of receiver,
which may actually be more desirable for getting more eye relief with some scopes, on a .458 WM.

Is there another make of 20-MOA Picatinny rail out there that will fit a Winchester M70 LA-3.6" without having to have another hole drilled in it ?
Sumbuddy who know ?

A couple more Winchester M70 LA-3.6" actions with 2-piece bases instead of 1-piece rails: 8X40 Screwed and Glued with J-B Weld:





Too bad the bolt faces on those two were opened up by about 0.010" for .404 Jeffery,
instead of for .458 WM+.
Switching of bolts and barrels would be required.
But I thank God they are not Blasers.

NEAR manufacturing in Canada makes a Picatinny rail with the MOA you want
I have one on my Winchester Model 70 express

Thanks for that, canuckistan.
What caliber/chambering is your M70 ?

http://nearmfg.com/contact_us.htm

"Our Winchester , Remington and Weatherby bases all have an integral recoil shoulder that reduces the shear stress on the mounting screws."

With an integral recoil stop on the bottom of the base, 8X40 and J-B Weld might not be needed.

They offer custom tilts of up to 75 MOA !

The only Winchester M70 Picatinny pictured at the Near website looks like a LA-3.4":

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Here is a different type for a Win M70 LA-3.6":

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A recoil stop on the bottom of a Picatinny rail for a Win 70 LA-3.6" is what I need now !

Yes Sir, going to go dig a hole for him Saturday, somber, sad, yet respectful duty ahead, I will be proud to toil and will not tire.

my winchester is in 458. rifle crank

it has a recoil stop you are able to see it in the last photo

Richard at near is outstanding for customer service

I have measured the magazine and it is a 3.4

the spacing between the 2 most spaced screw is 5.520 center to center

if I am not mistaken Richard does custom work maybe he could make it for you

give him a line

The weather broke today: 52 degrees F, sunny, 9 mph north wind.
I fired 12 rounds of 500-gr Hornady InterLock with Hodgdon CFE 223, 3 rounds each with 83, 84, 85, and 86 grains, COL 3.480".
I fired 12 rounds of 500-gr Hornady InterLock with Alliant Power Pro VARMINT, 3 rounds each with 79, 80, 81, and 82 grains, COL 3.480".
I fired 30 rounds of 450-gr Barnes TSX with H4895, 3 rounds with each 1-grain increment from 71 to 80 grains.
I was quite happy with results.
Will report them shortly.
Daisy the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+ performed like a champ again.
The 1.75" thick block of high-density foam rubber allowed me to enjoy her immensely. No headache. No bruising or soreness of shoulder.
I would love to do that every day.
Pleased to note the CFE 223 actually does prevent copper fouling, might even remove pre-existing copper fouling.

Alliant Power Pro 1200R is a faster powder than any of the above 3, and maker claims excellent temperature independence.
I did not get a chance to try that yet.
Will do so next time out: 450-gr TSX with AA-2230 and APP-1200R with COL about 3.565".

It is always better to beat a .458 Lott with a COL of less than 3.6".

Fastest to slowest burn rates:

106) Alliant Power Pro 1200-R
115) AA-2230
116) AA-2460
119) H4895
125) Alliant Power Pro VARMINT (same burn rate, 125), as AA-2495 in the table I am using)
140) CFE 223

God bless you.

I have Bill's book in the mail, found a used one in "Good" condition, for only $131. Saw a "Collectors" version "like new" for $450.

Riflecrank

speaking of recoil pad.
will try a inflatable wedge bag use in construction
able to inflate it has hard has you want
this bag is used to level window framing or household appliance to level them
dimension is about 5x5
the air cushion I think would absorb the recoil
what do you think?

Canuckistan,
About the 5"x5" construction airbag: Give it a try and let us know.
It will either be good or it will make the rifle bounce forward off your shoulder.
Hold tight.


I will do that.
I do see the recoil stop on the bottom of your rail, and it would be perfect on the LA-3.6" with only one hole needing to be placed differently, I bet.
It would probably be a good idea to glass bed the recoil stop where it touches the rear of the front receiver ring.

if it is only 1 hole to drill differently I would bet Richard at NEAR would do it for you

I will hold on my 458 with the recoil bag
will give result

good idea to glass bed the recoil stop

canuckistan,

Richard Near: Great service by merely a telephone call.
Turns out he made 10,000 of the NEAR Picatinny rails for Winchester, after FN bought them, before the move to SC, used on their tactical-packaged/PM-type M70 rifles.
He had just what I needed in stock, both flat and 25-MOA tilt, for the "Express" action with 0.330" hole spacing at the rear.
And yes, he can do up to 75-MOA tilt as a custom order !
You pay $10 extra for black nitride coating on the bead-blasted stainless finish, all made of the same steel.
With the recoil stop, 6x48 screws are OK.
Phone number: +1 (780) 608-2441, Camrose Alberta, Canada.
Richard said his latest stuff can be found at www.trg42.com
and I would say another site that google took me to has not been updated in 10 years, but had the correct telephone #.
Will check out trg42.com.
Thanks again.

Data from yesterday:






Oops, make that "same windage with 450-gr TSX 1 inch higher at 50 yards than the 500-gr RN"
which is still a pretty useful thing.
Get the 500-gr RN soft (or FN solid hopefully) zeroed at 100 yards and the 450-gr TSX will be shooting higher for longer range use with gentler recoil.
Both delivering over 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle-KE.

We also see that the greater recoil of 85 grains of CFE 223 makes the 500-grainer shoot higher than with 80 grains of VARMINT,
even though the lower-recoil VARMINT load is slightly faster in MV.
When you are stuck with 50-yard targets, it is like watching angels dance on the head of a silly millimeter.

Daisy did it again:









The caduceus wings over the .458 WinMag head stamp means it's just what the doctor ordered. Good medicine.

Powders of interest in the .458 WM and .458 WM+: Anything good in a .223 Rem.

Hodgdon's CFE 223 really works, cleaning copper out of bore.
It would be highly desirable for any 550-gr to 600-gr bullets no doubt, being a slower powder than the other two below.

Alliant's Power Pro Varmint seems ideal for 500-grainers.

Alliant's Power Pro 1200-R may be best reserved for lighter bullets, being quite a bit faster than VARMINT.
But it is said to have excellent ThermoBallisticIndependence, what I call TBI, not meaning Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.













Don't forget about the .45-98 Sharps Belted with Blackhorn 209 and cast bullets, even those with PC-paint and gas check,
or greased and plain base, whatever turns your riflecrank,
heck even BP and paper-patched works wonderfully well in the .458 WM and .458 WM+:

The .458 Winchester Magnum is to a rifle cartridge as the Bagwell Bowie is to a knife.

A neat addition to a .458 WM with a cross-slot scope base
is the 3-ounces of heat-treated steel and sex appeal of the MAGPUL MBUS PRO:

Continued:











It will be fun to try to Bagwell and to Selous with "barrel sights" on a .458 WM.
Marcella here will be about 8.5 pounds field ready and fully loaded.
That is about what the graceful .461 Gibbs No. 2 of Selous weighed with its slender 28" barrel and incredible barrel sights,
offering sight settings for both 360-grainers at ~1800 fps and 570-grainers at ~1300 fps, paper patched BP.
Selous also graduated to 480-grainers at 2100-2200 fps with the coming of the "Nitro Express" era and metal-patched bullets.
To Bagwell reqires a 480-ish to 540-ish grainer at 1200-1400 fps, ballistics of the Bison Hunters,
with .45-caliber Sharps rifles using grease-grooved or paper-patched bullets.
So the .458 WM+ becomes either a .458 BPE Belted, a .458 NFBPE Belted, with .460" to .461" cast bullets, or a .458 NE Belted
for Selousing with .458" to .459" jacketed bullets ...

... or a .45-98 Sharps Belted to Bagwell:

Ron, many thanks for the CFE223 load info. I had hoped that it would yield more velocity with 500 grain bullets, but, as you have noted, it is a very slow powder for this application. Also as you said, it might do very well with 550-600 grain bullets. That brings up a question that I have not seen answered definitively: Are there any applications of the .458 Win Mag+ in which a 550 or 600 grain bullet pushed to 2100-2150 fps would be noticeably superior to a modern 450-500 grain bullet at full velocity?

bcelliott,

That is a very good question.
I prefer the 450-gr and 500-gr monometals at higher velocities than with the 550-grain cup&core,
Some will swear by their 550-grain cup&core-bonded Woodleigh at 2100 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM.
I bet they are not just being profane.
As long as the bullet is not a monometal copper or brass bullet exceeding 1.6" in length, no worries, just my SWAG.
The overwhelming consensus is that the 500-grain solid of any type at 2100 fps is optimum for elephant pass throughs at 25 to 50-yard range.
Inside of 25 yards they might penetrate less, especially noted in the days of the RNFMJ solids.
Something about a bullet getting better stabilized 25 yards down range, and lesser velocity means less tissue resistance.
Maybe the FN solid overcomes some of this close-range instability, and might be better at higher velocity than the old RN.

With the RNSN at 2100 fps, a 550-grainer has more momentum and KE and will drive expansion better at same velocity as the 500-grainer.

Yet Richard Harland reported great things with 450-gr solids at 2300 fps for elephant hunting with the SAAMI .458 WM

Finn Aagaard reported the first generation X-Bullet of 400-gr weight and no more than 2300 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM
was more devastating in wound channel volume and penetration depth
than any other 500-gr soft he tested in his artificial media,
and Phil Shoemaker verified it on big brown bear and such live game.

Bill Bagwell reported that the cast FN .458"/ 480-gr at just under 1300 fps would pass through game routinely,
bison at 75 yards, through both shoulders,
and deer-sized game at 300-yards.
The slow bullet generates less tissue resistance, and at such velocities the cast lead does not over-expand, penetrates deep.

It is not a stretch to think that a 450-grain FN monometal solid at around 2300 fps
would be ideal for either elephant or blue whale with a SAAMI .458 WM+.
The 500-gr TBSS with bronze FN and bonded lead core (1.400" bullet length for 500-gr weight)
at 2300 fps might be the best of all possible worlds,
in a magic wand like a .458 WM+, at lower pressure than can be done with a .458 Lott.

It is amusing to see that the Woodleigh Bullets manual shows the 550-gr loads
getting 2110 fps in the .458 WM
and only 5 fps more in the .458 Lott: 2115 fps MV
We know we can easily beat that with the .458 WM loaded to longer than 3.340" COL, up to 3.6" COL like the .458 Lott.















See Woodleigh bullet lengths above compared to some other makes:

The 550-gr FMJ (RN) is 1.521" long ... the 450-gr TSX is 1.520" long ... the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid FN is 1.520" long

The 550-gr RN SN is 1.414" long ... Bubba's 400-gr TS-improved-X is 1.400" long ... Gen. 1 Barnes X-Bullet 400-gr is 1.345" long (no grooves)

The 500-gr PP SN is 1.394" long ... Federal's TBSS (FN) 500-gr is 1.400" long

The 500-gr FMJ (RN) is 1.388" long ... Barnes Banded Solid FN 450-gr is 1.375" long

The 500-gr RN SN is 1.305" long

The Lyman #457121 PH 480-gr FN grease-grooved is 1.220" long (50:50 WW/Pb)

Shooting 480-grainers at 1300 fps from a .458-caliber rifle is said to be as much fun as one can have with his pants on.
Always wear pants when you go hunting.