Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Problem Necking .30-30 down to .219 Zipper Improved

I'm running into a problem that I hope someone can help me with. Specifically, I'm trying to create .219 Zipper Improved cases from .30-30 cases. So far, it's been a failure. I'm using once fired .30-30 cases, which I have in Remington, Winchester and Hansen (some sort of Yugoslav made case).

I have a form die for the .219 ZI. When I run a well-lubricated .30-30 case into it, the neck sizes down to .22 caliber for about an 1/8 of an inch, then the case collapses the neck and the shoulder. This is true whether the case is annealed (which is what I started with initially) or not annealed (which I also tried, with the same result).

I'm thinking that the .30 caliber to .22 caliber is too much to ask in one step and am purchasing a set of .25-35 dies to provide an intermediate step. Should I also get a set of 7x30 Waters and make this a three step process?

Does anyone have another suggestion or recommendation?

Thanks.

Please share updates as you go.

Mike

I never did exactly what you're trying to accomplish, but I have made quite a few Savage .22 High Power cases from .30-30 brass. I experienced much disappointment and aggravation until I utilized an intermediate sizing die, which was simply a .250 Savage die. Another trick I learned along the way was to lubricate very sparingly, and move the case into the die(s) incrementally, wiping off, re-lubing, and turning the case around at each increment. I re-anneal about halfway through the process. Bloody time consuming, and I still experience some case loss in the process but not much.

Then I wised up and started making .22HP brass out of .25-35's. One pass into the HP sizing die and done, with just a minor fireforming to complete the process. (With full power loads, and with the same accuracy as delivered with fully formed brass.)

Perhaps by switching to .25-35 brass, running it into the .219 ZI die, annealing to include shoulder and a scinch below the shoulder, then fireforming in the .219 ZI chamber?

I've run into the same issue attempting to form .22 HP cases from .30-30. So, I thought I'd start with .25-35 cases and try them, Also had issues.

if you plan on using .30-30 brass, then a third set of dies would be helpful. Also, when going from .25-35 down to .22, don't try to run the ram all the way in. Run it in part way til you feel resistance, back it out, apply a bit more lube, I usually just redistribute what's already on the case, partially rotate the case in the shell holder and then run it back in. Sometimes I do this step twice, it depends on the brass. When I do it this way, I lose fewer cases.

I do this like three times when forming .256 Win cases from .357. First I neck from 35 to 30 caliber, then to .257. if I try to go straight form 30 to .257 I either get wrinkles or worse but if I run it in partially several times I get usabale cases.

Huh. I just ram the .25-35's straight into my Redding size die in one fell swoop, no problems.

If you have a 30-30 FL sizer, start with that w/o the decapping assembly installed.

A heavy chamfer on the outside can be of some help.

Another option, depending on your chamber dimensions, is to neck turn prior to sizing down.

What case lube are you using? I really like Imperial Sizing Die Wax for serious forming jobs.

I like to use Armorall protectant when doing a tough size job.

Imperial for sure. Then use some intermediate dies you already may have. If the dies are for a cartridge not much longer than the .30-30, just adjust them so that you size the neck region gradually down. Say, from .30 to 7mm, and then to .25 or 6mm and finally in the Zipper form die. Dies on .308- based cartridges ought to work admirably, such as 7-08 and .243.

I never made cases for the Improved version but did make several hundred for the standard Zipper from 30-30 cases. As others have stated
I used a couple of intermediate steps to get there. After problems with annealing at the start of the process, I quit that and did it before loading.
Imperial Sizing Die Wax is your friend and patience!
If you can find 25-35 brass it is very easy:-)

Regarding forming .22 High Power.. I have an RCBS 30-30 to .22 HP case forming die set that consists of three case forming dies and following the last die (ID of 0.255) the RCBS instructions then have you run the case into a .22 HP full length sizing die.

I would expect that forming the .219 Zipper Imp. would be similar. The only downside I know is the cost of the three die case forming die set.

Good luck in your project.

As an oh-by-the-way statement, many years ago Bob Milek recommended the use of Alberto VO5 hair dressing for case forming lube on the .30 Herrett cases. I tried it and it worked just like Bob said it would. I am on my second tube of the stuff starting with my first .30 Herrett and I still use it for case forming...

I have formed .32-20 into .25-20 and .30-30 into .22 HP (close to what you're doing.) I've found in both instances that, if I use Imperial and run the cases in incrementally, 3 or 4 steps, turning the case between steps, it works pretty well. Don't ask me why, just reporting.

Lots of good information.

Another case forming "trick" is to use the SEATER dies as well before each FL die stage.

25-35 Seater, the FL, then 219 seater, then 219 FL.

I've had the same success creating 218 Bee from 32.20, go slow, 1/4 turn the case . 2 losses ot of 100. I used lee sizing lube in very very small amounts wiped on with my finger.

good luck

6.5(.260)x58R Sauer from 9.3x72R. Not really readily available intermediate dies so I do it in just the 6.5 FL die. Trim to near correct length, anneal and multiple sizing increments, when it gets tough re-anneal. Going slow prevents any wrinkles.

6.5x58R Sauer center, 9.3x72R right, 243 for reference right


My chamber is very generous so no reaming needed.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a set of .25-35 dies coming and I might pick up a set of 7x30 Waters dies as well if the .25-35 dies don't do the trick.

I'm also going to try the Alberto VO5, which should also help with my forming .30 Herrett and .256 Winchester case forming. (I do seem to shoot a lot of not readily available stuff....)

If you have the chamber reamer you can make a seater/forming die closer to the improved chamber and work the brass less. The 7x30 Waters sounds like a good idea, on that one you would not need to use the chamber reamer on it.

Gun Broker and several other sources have both Winchester and Hornaday 25-35 Brass. All the usual suppliers were out but many of the more obscure suppliers had it for $33 per 50. A little pricey but all brass is now, there is a fair amount of once fired brass available I assume it is generated by cowboy action shooters. This is noted to have thinner necks so could eliminate neck turning (maybe) and eliminate 2-3 more steps.

Just for reference, I form 30-30 to 219 Zipper with a set of RCBS forming dies. Die #1 puts the body taper in, pushes the shoulder back and necks down the brass to .298 inside diameter. Die #2 necks down the brass to .270" inside diameter. Die #3 necks down the brass to .228" inside diameter and finishes the shoulder/neck junction and is the trim die. I have also done it with 7-30 Waters and 25-35 dies as has been stated. I also don't anneal the case until after the forming is complete.

Have 7x30 Waters and .25-35 dies on the way and am trying to find a tube of Alberto VO5 (wife checked two pharmacies and a grocery store yesterday without success). Hopefully, necking the .30-30 case down in steps will work better. I'll report back once the dies arrive and I've had a chance to see whether they work.