Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Hoping for a SHD/ Turpin Reply

Hello, i'm a newby to this forum. I was reading "Gun Writers" Background and read where you (SHD) peeks in from time to time! I, like the gun writers have thoes who i look up to , past and present, and well you are one of them. I read your monthly artical every month and will buy a rag if it has anything to do with Custom Guns. I thank mostly you and Tom Turpin for what you are doing for the Custom gun making field. I myself have been bitten by the Custom Rifle and have been doing a few from time to time. Not to brag but i have got some real good praises from people localy and from gunshows. I gave up for awhile because of other outside pressures but it's in the blood and won't go away! I'm rebuilding my shop and getting started up again. Enough about me...
My question is are you self taught, or did you start out with some schooling in the gunsmithing schools. Did your very first gun come out perfect and you ran with it from there? (Every gun i've built, i always thought could have been better!) I understand you have to have a good eye and talent also. So what makes a talented gun maker such as yourself and what can you as an artist tell another builder what to do, look for, or whatever to get to that point where it is the perfect gun. Who, what, when, where, do you have to be to get to that point that you are a top flight builder! Don't give me that gosh, golly thanks, because brother your there and i'm after an honest answer. Tom Turpin, you've been around it enough that if you see this and want to put in your $.02 worth i'de get a kick out of hearing from you also! What does it take?

As another Dodd I can tell you that Steven Dodd Hughes (SDH is his handle here) does cruise by from time to time. You could start with his books Fine Gunmaking, Double Shotguns and Custom Rifles in Black & White if you don't have them.

jim

HunterJim: Thanks for the reply and yes if it has to do with custom Guns i have them, cant get enough of that stuff and wish there were more writers that (are in the know) would write even more than they can on the subject. I myself went to a gunsmithing school back in 1985, and also taken machine classes, and at the moment i do cnc machine for a global company. I put in a bid to get into there model shop and think that would be a big boost to refining my metal smithing skills. That is the field that i enjoy the most! Again thanks!

Also the American Custom Gunmakers Guild is a home for such gunmakers.

http://acgg.org/

I visit their show every January in Reno. It is definitely worth the trip.

jim

HunterJim: Thanks i have them in my favorites list. I would like to get out there and see that show and the wife and i are trying to get it to where we could both take the time to get to go. Oklahoma is a little far from Reno,and the snow bunnies run up the airfare at that time of year, but we'll get there in 2009.

I guess its kind of a silly question to began with, because if you are doing it full time and making a living at it, your in! I think what would intrest me is how the top builders got started, how there first guns turned out and what struggles they went through to get to where they are today, if any. Backgrounds on there quest to get to where they are today, and if they feel like they have reached that goal or if there is room for more improvment. What they advise to others that enjoy doing what they do, and a little advise wouldnt hurt!

As a client who has ordered a great many custom rifles over the years, I can tell you that not all of the players are created equal. Some of my favorite custom riflemakers went to Colorado School of Trades, but some have also been self-taught, and some are second-generation riflemakers who learned the business growing up.

All of the successful, highly-skill gunmakers share the commonality of "natural talent". They are gifted craftsmen with an instinct for what they're doing, and that part of custom riflemaking cannot be taught in school.

Also speaking from the perspective of a client, you must know what sort of rifles you plan to build. Are you planning to build serious hunting rifles, or are you planning to build "art rifles" or period pieces. There's a distinct and serious difference between the two, believe me. From my standpoint, artful renditions in wood and steel are wonderful, but if it doesn't feed, doesn't shoot, and doesn't function, it's a safe-queen and little else...........

AD

allenday: Thank you for your responce! That is a great answer in that not all are created equal. Most that i'm talking about are in the ACGG, and even of thoes they are not equal. I guess it is also ones idea of what a custom is to that person.Yes, one has to have a good eye, and keep it all in perspective.

I agree 100% that talent can not be taught in a classroom, i've been there and can relate to that point. I am not one to brag on myself, and as i said earlier, every rifle i have done, i feel there was room for improvment, even if the customer didnt see it or i am just to hard on myself! That is the reason i bring this to the table, are the guns that the "Masters" if you will, feel the same way or when the gun is finished they are 100% proud of what they finished.

No safe queens here, i want them to be used, and you use the terms "Art Rifles" and "Serious Hunting Rifles". If your talking extra nice wood for a rifle stock and blued steel, then i like the "Serious Art Hunting Rifles". A lot of the rifles i see in books and adds that are custom from some of these guys are what atracted me to start building such rifles! I'm taking the steps at this time (baby steps) to start putting out such rifles that my idols are doing and hope to reach their level of the trade. Maybe if we are not all dead and gone i'll get something started...Again thanks for ringing in!

Still waiting, give me your $.02 worth!

dont know how you get to that level....i know i can never reach it....i dont care about the small lil details that make rifles like the ones you speak of just that much better than the next guys. i care about function....must be two many years working in greenhouses and running printing equipment that was around when my father and grandfather were born, if it works i dont care how it looks....i aint paying for it to be pretty i really dont care. i just care that the dang thing works. i love a blued steel rifle set in gorgeous walnut but on the other hand im equally happy with the ugliest damn rifle if it shoots straight and will go bang EVERY time i pull the trigger.

if you can put to gether a good looking rifle that functions well, my hats off to yah cause its something ill never be able to do.

srtrax,
You've got about book worth of questions, as there are no simple answers to any of them. It is very difficult to write about oneself without giving misleading impressions and please forgive me, I write for money, so doing long essays for fun is not part of my normal process any longer.

Here�s the best I can do at this time: I started gunsmithing school at Trinidad State in 1975, three years there. The first rifle I built was a Radom action Mauser 98, 270 Win. With chambering, barrel and action conversion done in class, stocked in class from the blank, and yes, it came out very nicely under the direct supervision of my instructors. It functioned and shot very well. It was a very nice rifle built by an amateur. (I sold it some seven years later to get to Las Vegas to join the ACGG.) After school I moved to Oregon worked for Green River Forge building semi-custom M/L guns. The first rifle I built out of school was not so great. Two years later started my own shop. The first rifle out of my own shop was better.
The most important attribute to anyone success is perseverance, simply sticking with it. Curiosity is a great motivator for starting things, but learning to finish a project is essential as well. Learning to listen, asking good questions then being quiet and listening to the answers. Books tell many stories you are not going to get first hand. I have learned as much from books as any other source. Learn what ever, when ever, where ever.

There is no such thing as a perfect gun and honestly judging your own work is one of the most difficult, and most important things to do.

Then there�s the: wife-left-me, nearly bankrupt, owe back taxes, applied for horrible jobs, make-shift shop, starving artist stuff that nobody wants to hear and I don�t want to dwell on, but it seems to be an integral part of the process. It took me about 15 years to get established without wondering when and where the next job was coming from. I still wonder, but these days I simply have faith that it will come.

�What does it take?� A bit of talent and a huge desire to create something as fine, or finer than you can imagine. It takes the ability to recognize quality and and trying to emulate it every day until you accomplish it. Then at least 10 years of single focus attention.

I apologize if you wanted simple answers or a road map, it isn�t possible. There is more about my background in the one and only issue of Custom Rifle Gazette (circa 1975).
One of my goals is to write a Survival Guide for Artisans, but I haven�t quite worked it into the schedule yet.
I�m glad you like the stories, trust you have both Tom�s and my books (?) the new one will be out in Sept.
And thanks Jim!
Best to you
Steve

rattler: Thanks, if it doesnt work it aint a custom,(OR WORTH A DIME). There is no reason why the most beautiful custom ever built cant function or shoot, even if it is setting in some meseum. I hear ya, ugly can be pretty! (LOL) Point well taken.

SHD:
Sir, i thank you very much for responding to my question. It means a lot to me to here from you and well if that is $.02 worth what would i get for a dollar? LOL.. I knew someone in the trade such as yourself could put it down in words that i could understand, as you have. I have the Custom Rifle Gazette, but havent look at it in a long time! I'll have to go back threw it. Your answers are what i thought i would hear and a little more, and as far as i know from my past experiences right on. I respect you taking the time and effort to answer my question and you ansered it very well. I'll use it well and keep on keeping on, and maybe one day we'll meet up and i'll bring this topic up over a cup of coffee!
I look forward to your next book and again Thank You Very Much- I'm all smiles!

I want to relate a story I think you'll enjoy.

About 30 years ago, I met Leonard Brownell at his home/shop outside Sheridan, Wyoming. I was introduced to him by a distant cousin. Leonard took my dad and I thru his home showing us his art work and guns, etc. Leonard also told several stories about Jack O'Conner and his wife, the Ruger stock design, etc.

When I saw Leonard's personal guns, I have to admit, I was disappointed and mentioned that what I was looking at wasn't what I expected from all the photographs of his work. Leonard was very honest and forthright. He said, "You know Rolly, I have cancer and probably won't live very long. Look at this nearly completed stock for a rifle. I have already been offered over $12,000 for the rifle and I might not even be able to finish the gun. I can't afford a $12,000 rifle myself."

Wow, that really hit home. I thought some of you custom gun makers and wannabe custom makers might enjoy the comment also. Food for thought.

Rolly: Thank you for that story. It is not the money that has me inspired to build top notch rifles, but it would be damn nice if it came with it! I'm one of thoes people who cant seem to set still, and when it comes to a rifle project, it can keep me up at nights tossing and turning. It has more to do with the creating then anything else, and the desire to try something diffrent or better than the last time you were in the shop. It gets in your blood and for me there is no replacement for wanting to do anything diffrent, its like you have to do it. Doesnt matter if you get rich, or famous, its just something that i have to do, and want to very much. I'll keep at it and throw more money at it till the day i die, and should it get to the point i do it full time that would be fine with me, and if i can make a living out of it, that would be wonderfull, but at the moment i'm happy doing what i do. Again Thanks Rolly!

srtrax,

Sorry for not responding sooner. I didn't see the thread until a short while ago. There isn't much that I can add to what has already been said. I can say that all makers that I know have natural talent, suplemented by either one of the schools, working for a master, or through the school of hard knocks.

One thing that I can tell you is that all the top makers have at least one common trait. That is, they will not let less than the best work they are capable of producing at any given point in time, out the door. No matter how badly they need money, no matter if the kids need new clothes, no matter what, they will only let it out the door when it is the very best that they can do. They figure that eventually, their dedication will pay off, and it almost always does.

Tom

A very good point Tom, and beyond that it is important that a gunmaker doesn't take in jobs that won�t reflect that best quality attitude. I made this mistake early on and there are a few guns I built to the client's specs that were never going to be "right". Sure they worked and were finely made, but they were less than what I knew was really good. They suffered from poor design concepts, didn't handle well or were poorly proportioned. I saw it before I started, and in the finished pieces and vowed not to do that again.

I've been very fortunate to find clients who have trusted my notions and have allowed me to create some very special guns and rifles. I work on the premise of four absolutes: 1. The gun is accurate and fully functional. (I test fire, sight in and keep targets from all my guns, always checking for function.) 2. It has pleasing styling appropriate to the "school" or architectural context. 3. It is equally finely finished from butt to muzzle. 4. It balances and handles well within the context of the shooting/hunting discipline.

In order to be �very good� at what you do one must anticipate as many potential problems or criticisms as one could possibly imagine and eliminate them prior to delivery of the finished piece (this is best done at the design stage,). When I was building muzzleloaders I always asked myself �What would John Bivins think of this gun�, with single shots I thought of my good friend Ed Webber. The point is to try to judge the quality beyond what I could imagine I was capable of doing, then strive for that.

Custom guns are very popular these days and there are a lot of folks offering their versions. There is no substitute for experience and yet there are plenty of clients willing, even desiring less than the best. There are a lot of clients fixated on accuracy, or function that are not willing to pay for balance, proportion, beauty and fine finishing. That�s just fine with me, but it won�t come from my shop. About half of my client either don�t shoot them or shoot them very little. That�s OK with me and this attitude is historically documented, but I know that sometime, somewhere someone is going to want to shoot that rifle I made, and I want that person to be pleased with the results. There is nothing wrong with collecting, I simply need to know that it is going to work just fine if anyone ever tries. (When I hear someone say �I wouldn�t own a gun I didn�t shoot,� I think they don�t own very many guns. I�ve got many antiques I don�t shoot.)

I am also a big fan of engraving and believe that all fully custom guns deserve at least a modicum of engraving; the tradition goes back as far as gunmaking does. I�ve been fortunate to work with clients and engravers that share my feelings and will accept at least a �trim job� with some borders, screw heads, caliber designation and maker�s name. But trust me, if one of my guns has elaborate engraving, IT STILL SHOOTS AND FUNCTIONS AS IT SHOULD.
Enough for now thanks for entertaining my opinions
[/
A .25-20 on an original Winchester Low Wall action, engraved by Michael Dubber and it shoots great. (Hallmarked SDH in 24 kt gold.)
BTW, tsquare (Tom Turpin) is more knowledgable than most anyone on the subject of custom guns.)

Any custom gunmaker who sends out any complete rifle from his shop to a trusting client (who intends to hunt with it), should test, correct (if necessary), and prove it for accuracy, feeding, and otherwise faultless function BEFORE the rifle is shipped to the client. Pretty IS as pretty DOES, especially when the price tag hits five figures.........

I've been burned on this aspect of things before, so this is a very big consideration to me, as a serious user of custom rifles. The best makers I've enjoyed doing business with over the years have sent out proven products, and I've been entirely happy with those rifles.

A few years ago, I order a 338 Win. Mag. from a riflemaker I've done business with for quite a number of years. When the rifle was complete, he called and told me that it was done, and that he was going to start breaking-in the barrel, testing for accuracy, function, etc., and that when he was finished, he was going to ship me the rifle. After a couple of weeks, he called and told me that it simply didn't shoot to his satisfaction with any load he tested it with, and accuracy so all-around abysmal that he had made the decision to order a replacement barrel (at his cost), install it, and start the break-in/testing process all over again.

And sure enough, that new barrel shot like a house afire, much more like a true varmint rifle than a big game rifle (especially something like a 338), and this gun is one of the most astoundingly accurate, versatile, trouble-free, unfussy hunting rifles I've ever owned. I would never consider replacing it or selling it, ever. Once again, as always, his diligence and honesty made me a happy and satisfied client - so happy that I ordered another rifle from him almost as soon as I received that tack-driving 338.

Now, if some other riflemaker would have simply screwed in that first barrel, stocked the metalwork, etc., then sent it out to me without testing it, completely unaware that the barrel was fundamentally a dog, leaving it up to me to find that fact out for myself, he would not have been very happy with the next call he got from me.........

AD

I agree Allen, and had to rebarrelled a new rifle once. I built 4 more rifles for the same fellow.
It''s a good idea to discuss these expectations with any gunmaker the first time around.

Tom, Steve, Allen: WOW, and i thought the other day this would have been all there was to this post. Guys i cant thank you enough for all the great information, and coming from a bunch such as yourselves, well it sure gets my attention and thats the response i could only dream of. I thank each and every one of you for taking the time, i know you are busy but it really has meant a lot to recieve such information from each one of you.
I'm on the right track, because i wouldnt let a gun out of the shop until i went out and fired it myself and knew that it was going to work and shoot the best it could. At the moment i am setting up shop and going to do a couple projects for myself, to get back in the groove you might say. I have people knocking at the door wanting guns, but i've told them i'm not ready just yet and well they have so far set back and waited! I just hope i don't make them wait too long, most i have done guns for before so they know when i'm ready they will get what they got before. (Actually they will get better as i have upgraded my equiptment, and set a goal to do twice as good work this time around.) I'm also wanting to upgrade my customers, another reason i'm building a couple for myself to help show what i'm capable of doing!
One, question i have remaining is a time frame. Most customers dont understand the amount of work that goes into something like this, or do the right ones know and allow enough time for you to do it right. You know how people can be and well its like a kid at Christmas, and cant hardly wait. Hell, i get that way at times myself.
Anyway, i could hang with you all for hours on end, so....
Steve that is one sweet looking High Wall - thats what makes you who you are!

P.S. We dont have to stop here, LOL, if you think of anything else i'm all ears, and again i thank you all for your insight, very well done gentlemen.

A very good way to figure out what to charge is to keep a dedicated time log for each project. I started doing this about 25 years ago and can tell to the hour how much time I have in most jobs. A 6x9" steno pad with entries for the date on the left, work accomplished in the middle and time spent for each operation on the right. Compile hours by the page and a running total for the project at the bottom of each sheet. This takes a lot of dicipline, but is really the only way to know how much time is invested. When you have a realistic idea of how much time it takes, you can start to figure how much your time is worth to you.

There was over 350 bench hours in this 12 ga. project plus Larry Peters engraving, bore work and metal finishing.