|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,412 Likes: 9
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,412 Likes: 9 |
The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 Likes: 1 |
To strike decisively against the Japanese, without the loss of American life, to bring the war to an end, the choice was obvious.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,776 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,776 Likes: 2 |
My Dad used to shoot trap with Paul Tibbets pilot of the Enola Gay when I was a kid. I didn’t realize the significance of who he was until I was older. The B29 “Bocks Car”, that dropped the Nagasaki bomb is at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio.
Ron
Ron The Enola Gay is hanging in the Air and Space Museum near Dulles airport. The most awesome museum I have ever been in. Jerry And they will be torn down and scrapped out in the name of political correctness by a mob of Asian Lives Matter.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336 |
The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.
Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that. You have more knowledge than I. Do you know what happens to that 6.5 kilos of Plutonium? As I understand, the most poisonous element known to man. Just part of the radioactive dust cloud? Yep. As I understand it, the rest of the bomb vaporizes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,492 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44,492 Likes: 10 |
My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy. One of my former bosses was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. A kind and spiritual man, but didn't have anything good to say about his captors.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,505
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 11,505 |
Well, when all was said and done, you could at least stroll along the pier in Oahu on a Sunday morning without being burned to death by evil people.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
The Enola Gay is hanging in the Air and Space Museum near Dulles airport. The most awesome museum I have ever been in.
Jerry
That museum alone is worth a trip to DC.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,015
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,015 |
The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.
Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that. You have more knowledge than I. Do you know what happens to that 6.5 kilos of Plutonium? As I understand, the most poisonous element known to man. Just part of the radioactive dust cloud? Yep. As I understand it, the rest of the bomb vaporizes. I gets dispersed with the rest of the bomb materials. It is not a significant contributor to the radiological hazard from fallout.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,152 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,152 Likes: 4 |
The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.
LeMay was quoted after the war as saying that if the Japanese had won, he’d have been tried, convicted, and executed as a war criminal. P It is good to be on the right side of history. It's even better for your side if you can write it. Even re-write it. We are seeing that now in our own internal politics. Winner take all.
Last edited by las; 02/18/21.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,040
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,040 |
The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death. Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 105
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 105 |
I just finished the book "Twilight of the Gods" great series about the Pacific war.Even after the second bomb the Japan's army almost had a coup to keep fighting.I think an estimate of a million allied lives would have been sacrificed is pretty conservative.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,634
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,634 |
The bombs ended the war and that was a good thing for the U.S. However, since then we rebuild japan for them and apologized 400 times to them for using the big hammer. Those two events opened the door to a nuclear deterrent that many countries have today. But, I do not regret the use of those bombs for a single minute.Right tool, right job. right time. Statement was made and entire world heard it!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,422
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,422 |
Was the second bomb fusion or fission? Is it true that the Physicists were not sure if they were going to be able to control the reaction, and possibly incinerate the planet?
"Their minds are dead" - Carmine Ricca
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,498 Likes: 1 |
Both of the atomic bombs that were used against Japan were fission weapons. There was talk among some (likely jokingly) that the explosion would ignite the atmosphere.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336 |
The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death. Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945. Most of what the Japanese did with infantry in WWII was horribly inefficient and ineffective. Take Guadacanal, and leave off the Banzai charges. One of their favorite tactics was to take a few highly motivated soldiers in the dead of night and try to infiltrate our positions. They might have a grenade or just a trench knife. It scared the piss out of everyone but most of these infiltrators were killed by our guys before they caused any harm. It was mostly a senseless waste. Another was jungle ambushes. They were good at setting them up, but they got to be fairly predictable. We also quickly figured out that once contact was made, we'd just fall back a bit and either lob mortar or automatic weapons in. They might get one or two casualties inflicted, but we'd bag the whole lot. Another thing I picked up from reading a memoir of an infantry sniper at Guadacanal was that the Marines pulled out before the real killing started. The Japs had no clue how to respond to artillery, and wherever and whenever we could, we'd make contact with the Japs and then soak the area with Arty. I'm not trying to throw shade on the Marines, but it was the Army that did the bulk of the actual killing. They had the tools for wholesale slaughter. Another thing to consider is that the US learned from all its mistakes. We generally improved our way of doing things over the course of the conflict. We responded to our own weaknesses and worked them out before the next landing. Japan did not have that. They'd been fighting us for years, sending horribly ill-supplied, woefully small numbers at us and when it all fell in on them, everyone would commit suicide and the process would repeat. At no time was there any commander limping back to tell his superiors "Hey, guys! We really screwed the pooch on this last one. Here's what we need to do next time."
Last edited by shaman; 02/18/21.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336 |
Both of the atomic bombs that were used against Japan were fission weapons. There was talk among some (likely jokingly) that the explosion would ignite the atmosphere. It wasn't a joke. They were dead serious: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/bethe-teller-trinity-and-the-end-of-earth/Well, at least some of them weren't treating it as a joke.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,422
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,422 |
I believe I recall reading that the US was close to being out of money to continue prosecuting the war, and this played heavy in the decision making as well. Sounds ridiculous given how they operate these days, but I think cash was beginning to be a bit of a concern in 1945.
"Their minds are dead" - Carmine Ricca
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,412 Likes: 9
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,412 Likes: 9 |
A comparison of a mass attack by Jap troops or civilians might be found in the battle Rorke's Drift in So. Africa in 1876. 3 to 4,000 Zulu's armed with spears tried a mass attack on a British fort defended by about 150 soldiers with muzzle loaders. Discipline won the battle for the Brits. Even with flinters, they were able to hold off the attack by maintaining a steady rate of aimed fire directly into the faces of the attackers. You can imagine the fear experienced by the Brits but they held their ground and won.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,336 |
A comparison of a mass attack by Jap troops or civilians might be found in the battle Rorke's Drift in So. Africa in 1876. 3 to 4,000 Zulu's armed with spears tried a mass attack on a British fort defended by about 150 soldiers with muzzle loaders. Discipline won the battle for the Brits. Even with flinters, they were able to hold off the attack by maintaining a steady rate of aimed fire directly into the faces of the attackers. You can imagine the fear experienced by the Brits but they held their ground and won. 1) They weren't flintlocks Muzzleloaders. They were Martini Henry rifles with brass cartridges. 2) In an invasion of Japan we would have taken the place of the Zulu. We would be attacking well defended positions. A well-defended position has about a 3 to 1 advantage over the attackers.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 19,495
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 19,495 |
The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death. Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945. A friend showed me photos he took at Iwo Jima (IIRC) with literally hundreds of Japanese bodies from a Banzai attack. Amazing photos.
Retired cat herder.
|
|
|
|
564 members (1minute, 1234, 007FJ, 160user, 1936M71, 10Glocks, 62 invisible),
2,134
guests, and
1,207
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,778
Posts18,495,840
Members73,977
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|