Fat Man Bomb - Nagasaki - 24hourcampfire

Harold Agnew carrying the plutonium core of the
Nagasaki Fat Man bomb, 1945.

[Linked Image]

Those two bombs saved millions of lives.

My FIL was a fighter pilot. He was on Okinawa training for the invasion when they dropped them. if the invasion had gone forward, I might not have had a wife to marry.

Less than 6.5 kilograms of plutonium 239 did all that damage.

Cool Picture.

I grew up in Oak Ridge Tn. My dad worked at Y-12 weapons development plant, no idea what he did for a living. It was a surreal place to grow up.
Patrick

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

"Countdown 1945" by Chris Wallace, chronicling the development of the bomb and dropping it on Hiroshima is a good read.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

Not a bit

My paternal grandfather had 7 siblings. All 8 of them were Air Force. 4 were pilots. 2 of the pilots died in combat. One Korea and 1 Vietnam. One great uncle( the oldest) was a nuclear engineer. He drafted plans for the nuclear bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki and was part of the crew that delivered the plans to the president and congress to show them progress/explain it. At his funeral( I was 14 so 20 years ago) were generals and pentagon employees who had worked with him. They spoke highly of him during speeches they gave at his funeral

his cancer was determined to have been caused by heavy metals and radiation( he was old as heck then so who knows what really killed him as he beat cancer 3 times). His wife died of same type cancer 20 years earlier. He lost a son 3 months after birth due to birth defects and leukemia they said were caused by his heavy metal exposures at oak ridge

His two daughters and one grandchild also died from cancer of same type in there mid life determined to be due to his service at oak ridge per the oncologist and researchers.

Talk about sacrifice. His lineage laid a heavy toll

Thanks for sharing that story. Puts sacrifice into a different perspective.

Nice bit of history.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

That story is probably not all that unique to my family in this area unfortunately. Some gave all and then some.

Living in East Tn, and not far from oak ridge, I have known multiple people who have died from heavy metal poisoning/radiation induced cancer who worked at oak ridge facilities. Most were older folks.

My father is a brick mason. Owned a commercial masonry company for longer than I have been alive. He bid a job at oak ridge. Said he showed up with his crew to start the job and there were guys in hazmat suits using g counters at the site. He asked why they were their in suits. Most didn’t say a thing

Said one of the workers walked up to him and said he would leave and not come back if he was them. Told him levels weren’t safe for extended exposure in that area. It was a retaining wall for some kind of retention pond I believe.

Dad said he doesn’t miss the money he left behind there. Lol

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

What was done by two bombs was horrific.

But actually just thin icing on a big cake.
So much focus on two cities in an agressor nation.
No attention at all to the cities of England, France, Poland....

Never even hear much of Dresden.

War, is horrific.
Period.

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

I think all that damage done in one sudden blast...one airplane that was hardly noticed...it would have been one thing to have wave after wave of bombers going over, dropping thousands of bombs...when one plane cruises over, hardly noticed, drops one bomb, hardly noticed, and in an instant levels a whole damn city....there had to be something surreal about that, something that told the Japanese they were through.

It’s still early in the thread.
I will wait for : “my grampie,dad, uncle Pete, etc helped with the surrender terms”

Cmon whoever, you can do it

I’ve read that during the height of the uranium enrichment at the Y-12 plant, Y-12 was using around 15% of the entire electrical output of the entire nation for months.

I’ve lived 5 miles from Oak Ridge my whole life. There are some nasty things in the ground there.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

Australian soldiers after their release from Japanese captivity in Singapore, 1945

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by kevinJ

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

We might call most of the victims "innocents", but in reality Japan had armed the adults, including the women, to kill as many Americans as possible. I would venture that the bombs saved many more Japanese lives than they took. the Japanese were prepared to fight to the death.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The Japanese worked hard to earn what they got from those two bombs.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

Only ignorant people try to single out Hiroshima and Nagasaki as some horrendous act of cruelty toward "innocent men, women and children," simply because of the nuclear aspect of the bomb.

The ruins of Dresden, 1945.

[Linked Image]

My first cousin piloted a B-52 from Viet Nam until right around Desert Storm. He flew conventional weapons until post-Viet Nam, transitioning to nukes while flying for SAC.

One thing that stuck with him, he always said, was how small the bomb really is that he had aboard. That huge bomb bay...one bomb in it. He told me it was roughly 7-8 feet long and a little less than 3 feet in diameter. I saw the shell of that type bomb on display at an air museum one time and he was right. It’s a tiny thing compared to its lethality.

Originally Posted by Crow hunter

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The Japanese worked hard to earn what they got from those two bombs.

Ask the citizens of Nan King if there was anything inhumane about our use of the atom bombs.

Drop one on the Chi Coms

My dad was on the Japanese islands in combat until he got sick with malaria, got shipped to Australian hospital, recovered and shipped back to Phillipines base waiting to go on the Japanese mainland invasion when they dropped the bomb........I know it killed alot of people but and invasion would have been just as bad or worse as far as loss of life.......the right choice was made. It was war.

Had one uncle fly figher bomber off of carriers for the Marines in WWII bombing islands before they invaded. He crop dusted after the war for awhile. This uncle was with some Australians who bragged about cutting the heads off Japanese soldiers.

Had another uncle that was a tail gunner on a B-17. He got the flu before one mission and his replacement tail gunner got killed.

My dad was a mechanic in the 3rd Army under Patton. He was in England, France, Luxembourg, Germany and Czechoslovakia. Lost his friend in the relief of Bastogne, told mom his face was blown off. He never watched a war movie, but would watch cowboys and indians. If the family was watching a war movie, when the shelling and gunfire started, he would go outside and smoke cigarettes.

I just wish I would have talked to them more about what they did in WWII.

My grandfather on my mother's side was a security guard in WWI in the army, and was a state prison guard in WWII.

Amazing how few know anything about what we did in Dresden.

Nasty horrible. To innocents.

Except, there are no "innocents" in that kind of industrial warfare.

Not to go on a tangent, but I get dam mad at people judging others
in the past. Using the here and now.

Yesterday's hero killed people.
Today he is a criminal for slugging someone.

Rules and circumstances change.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

LeMay was quoted after the war as saying that if the Japanese had won, he’d have been tried, convicted, and executed as a war criminal.

P

Originally Posted by Pharmseller

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

LeMay was quoted after the war as saying that if the Japanese had won, he’d have been tried, convicted, and executed as a war criminal.

P

It is good to be on the right side of history.

Originally Posted by OrangeOkie

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

Only ignorant people try to single out Hiroshima and Nagasaki as some horrendous act of cruelty toward "innocent men, women and children," simply because of the nuclear aspect of the bomb.

The ruins of Dresden, 1945.

[Linked Image]

I think the revised death toll was around 25,000 for the Dresden bombing raids. I think it gets the attention it gets because it was a beautiful city, and the point if the bombing was to choke the area with refugees and convince yhe civillians the war was completely lost.

Originally Posted by Pharmseller

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

LeMay was quoted after the war as saying that if the Japanese had won, he’d have been tried, convicted, and executed as a war criminal.

P

Yet we had a policy of not going after any but the very top officers... and worst offenders...

My dad passed away on 10/7/2020 at 96 and 4 months to the day. A veteran of WW 2 in the US Army he was on a troop ship in the Pacific headed for the staging area for the invasion of the home islands when they dropped the bombs and ended the war. Never saw my dad really pissef off until one day when some liberal know it all was running off at the mouth about why we should have never done that. My dad gave him a piece of his mind in his mid 70's. I am not ignorant of the ramifications of the US dropping the bombs, dad said the US command figured 50% casualty rate on 1 million plus in the invasion with a Japanese casualty rate as high or higher. The bombs were the least costly way to go in human loss for both sides. Mb

My Dad used to shoot trap with Paul Tibbets pilot of the Enola Gay when I was a kid. I didn’t realize the significance of who he was until I was older. The B29 “Bocks Car”, that dropped the Nagasaki bomb is at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio.

Ron

Ron

Originally Posted by kevinJ

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

I share your sentiment.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

I knew an old fella who was in the Army Air Corps in WWII and he had nothing good to say about them. Plenty of bad things, though.

My dad served in the Philippines during WW2. He was only 18 when he got drafted.
In 1955, when I was 6, on Saturdays, I would ride along with him when he delivered fresh meat to corner grocery stores around Kansas City.
One day he pulled over on the side of a residential street, he pointed at a small white haired man mowing his tiny front yard with a push mower. My Dad told me that guy was the reason I was alive—wasn’t until many years later that I even knew what he was talking about.

The white haired man was actually in Independence, right?

After the Bataan death march they got what they deserved.

Dean

One of my late uncles was a young marine that arrived in the Pacific theater in the latter stages of WW2. He would have been part of the invasion of Japan if that had occurred. When the Japanese surrendered there were a hell of a lot of young American G.I.'s who just had their lives spared and were aware of that fact.

I have the book Unbroken in the camper that I read when we take the quads out. Zamperini when through a special level of hell at the hands of the Japanese. Second guessing the decision to drop may be human nature but rewriting history is bs.
I had a great uncle that fought at Tarawa. He struggled with civility in restaurants when he saw a person of Japanese descent. Made dinner an event. Very tough old man.

"Countddown 1945" by Chris Wallace gives some great behind the scenes insight into the development and decision to drop the bomb. There were actually many alternatives considered, including a demonstration blast for the Japanese to witness. That plan was ultimately rejected out of fear that is the demonstration failed to detonate, it might give the Japanese new resolve to fight harder. The other issue that hastened the rush to bring the Pacific war to an end was the Russians scooping up and realigning Europe after the defeat of Germany.

On Jan 17, 1945 Chief of Staff Marshall and Admiral King sent a letter to the House Military Affairs Committe that 900,000 inductions were required by June 30th. JCS924 Operations Against Japan Subsequent to Formosa warned taking the Home Islands might cost us a half a million American lives and many times that number wounded. 1,531,000 Purple Hearts were produced for the war effort. In 2000, there remained 120,000 Purple Heart medals in stock. Read "Hell to Pay" by D. M. Giangreco.

‘The Making of the Atomic Bomb’ by Richard Rhodes is a fantastic book about this unique and very interesting history.

My late father was on Okinawa, would most likely have been sent to Japan.

My Filipino Ex MiL, with whom I converse regularly, witnessed the Bataan Death March as a little girl, she spent the war years hiding out while her father fought with the guerillas. My own mom still remembers the sound Luftwaffe bombers made.

It really wasn’t so long ago.

Originally Posted by kevinJ

My paternal grandfather had 7 siblings. All 8 of them were Air Force. 4 were pilots. 2 of the pilots died in combat. One Korea and 1 Vietnam. One great uncle( the oldest) was a nuclear engineer. He drafted plans for the nuclear bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki and was part of the crew that delivered the plans to the president and congress to show them progress/explain it. At his funeral( I was 14 so 20 years ago) were generals and pentagon employees who had worked with him. They spoke highly of him during speeches they gave at his funeral

his cancer was determined to have been caused by heavy metals and radiation( he was old as heck then so who knows what really killed him as he beat cancer 3 times). His wife died of same type cancer 20 years earlier. He lost a son 3 months after birth due to birth defects and leukemia they said were caused by his heavy metal exposures at oak ridge

His two daughters and one grandchild also died from cancer of same type in there mid life determined to be due to his service at oak ridge per the oncologist and researchers.

Talk about sacrifice. His lineage laid a heavy toll

Damn, they sure did a heavy price. I have a uncle who retired from Y-12 I think it was called. Had to retire because he went blind.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

They started it, we finished it. Too, bad we didnt drop them and finish it sooner.

A physicist I worked with worked at Los Alamos. All he would say about it was that he worked on the optimal design of the materials. He's gone now and is remembered as a fine man.

Jaguartx is spot on

Originally Posted by OrangeOkie

Harold Agnew carrying the plutonium core of the
Nagasaki Fat Man bomb, 1945.

[Linked Image]

Isn't that thing kinda like, dangerous?

He's holding it like a six pack of Banquet Beer.

The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.

Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

Wrong. Japans top brass didnt have to worry about being taken out by conventional bombing.

Originally Posted by shaman

The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.

Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that.

And ‘that’ is simply astounding...! That ‘missing’ mass which is converted to energy during fission equals something real damn big when it’s multiplied by the speed of light squared...!

Thank You for pointing that out shaman.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

The only difference was that it only took one plane and one bomb to do the job.

Many, many things contributed to the Japanese surrender. The knowledge that Russia was almost knocking on their back door encouraged many of the Japanese to wish to surrender to the USA before the Russians got there.

So, were the atom bombs inhumane? No, no more so than any other part of the bombing campaigns over Japan and Germany.

Were the two atom bombs actually necessary? Yes, I believe they were. They were the straw that broke the camel's back among the hard line Japanese generals who wanted to fight to the last child standing and the last grain of rice.

I will take issue only with a little part of this, the only difference wasn't that it took only one plane to drop them, the big difference is they helped the war come to a more speedy end.

Yeah, they were no better or worse than the fire bombings,but, as mentioned, I have zero compassion for the japanese people.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

Nope. None.

Originally Posted by shaman

The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.

Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that.

You have more knowledge than I. Do you know what happens to that 6.5 kilos of Plutonium? As I understand, the most poisonous element known to man.

Just part of the radioactive dust cloud?

Originally Posted by Ohio7x57

My Dad used to shoot trap with Paul Tibbets pilot of the Enola Gay when I was a kid. I didn’t realize the significance of who he was until I was older. The B29 “Bocks Car”, that dropped the Nagasaki bomb is at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio.

Ron

Ron

The Enola Gay is hanging in the Air and Space Museum near Dulles airport. The most awesome museum I have ever been in.

Jerry

Read “Hell To Pay” by D.M. Giangreco. Talks all about the decisions leading up to the dropping the bombs. Some eye opening take aways:

West coast hospitals were told to be ready to received 70,000 to 110,000 causalities a month from the Japanese home island invasion.
England wanted to wait a a year or more to “train” for the invasion.
US told England, they would be under US command using US equipment.
Australia who had been fighting Japan did not want to be under British command for obvious reasons.
For Operation Cornet and Olympic the Japanese had over 700,000 well armed and well defended soldiers who had 7 months to get ready for the first home island invasion. Imagine if the Germans had 7 months to get ready and be ready on the Normandy beaches.
LeMay wanted to use the nukes tactically, Truman agreed to drop them on Japanese cities.
Truman authorized 700,000 Purple Heart medals that are still being used today.
I’m not sure of the exact year but I believe they said the entire US male birth population of 1926??ish would have been wiped out if the home island invasions had gone ahead,

My biggest take away from this book was that after the Japanese took almost two days to respond after the second bomb was dropped, Truman authorized I believe 9 more bombs to get readies and they would have been ready in November 1945.

You never see photos of American and British troops going into Berlin. Not because they couldn’t get there before the Russians but because they were being held back and transfers of Engineers were already starting to move to the Pacific. The Japanese were betting they could hold out for a peace deal and that we wouldn’t have the stomach for total take no prisoners warfare. They were probable correct. They also had a bunch of fuel, weapons, manpower, and aircraft in reserve.

No one thought the US would be up for another 4 to 5 years of war in Japan after the Germans surrendered.

It’s a long read and very detailed but give it to any nuke nay sayer and it will change their outlook. It did for my lib sister who was an anti nuke believer,. After the finishing the book, she got it.

Cowdoc—I know it was Independance, MO now—I didn’t then
Hard to believe a former president would mow his own lawn—with a push mower no less.[align:center][/align]

The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death.

To strike decisively against the Japanese, without the loss of American life, to bring the war to an end, the choice was obvious.

Originally Posted by Jerryv

Originally Posted by Ohio7x57

My Dad used to shoot trap with Paul Tibbets pilot of the Enola Gay when I was a kid. I didn’t realize the significance of who he was until I was older. The B29 “Bocks Car”, that dropped the Nagasaki bomb is at the Air Force museum in Dayton Ohio.

Ron

Ron

The Enola Gay is hanging in the Air and Space Museum near Dulles airport. The most awesome museum I have ever been in.

Jerry

And they will be torn down and scrapped out in the name of political correctness by a mob of Asian Lives Matter.

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by shaman

The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.

Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that.

You have more knowledge than I. Do you know what happens to that 6.5 kilos of Plutonium? As I understand, the most poisonous element known to man.

Just part of the radioactive dust cloud?

Yep. As I understand it, the rest of the bomb vaporizes.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

One of my former bosses was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. A kind and spiritual man, but didn't have anything good to say about his captors.

Well, when all was said and done, you could at least stroll along the pier in Oahu on a Sunday morning without being burned to death by evil people.

Originally Posted by Jerryv

The Enola Gay is hanging in the Air and Space Museum near Dulles airport. The most awesome museum I have ever been in.

Jerry

That museum alone is worth a trip to DC.

Originally Posted by shaman

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

Originally Posted by shaman

The Nagasaki bomb used a mass of Plutonium of about 6.5 Kg. However, what actually was converted from Mass to Energy was somewhat less than 1 Gram. The rest was just detritus.

Think of that: a mass of 1/3 of a penny did all that.

You have more knowledge than I. Do you know what happens to that 6.5 kilos of Plutonium? As I understand, the most poisonous element known to man.

Just part of the radioactive dust cloud?

Yep. As I understand it, the rest of the bomb vaporizes.

I gets dispersed with the rest of the bomb materials. It is not a significant contributor to the radiological hazard from fallout.

Originally Posted by duck911

Originally Posted by Pharmseller

Originally Posted by Idaho_Shooter

The two atom bombs did nothing more than we had been doing every night to Japan for many weeks. Curtiss LeMay was systematically leveling the nation of Japan, one city at a time. The incendiary bombing campaign of city after city was killing as many Japanese every night as the atom bombs did.

LeMay was quoted after the war as saying that if the Japanese had won, he’d have been tried, convicted, and executed as a war criminal.

P

It is good to be on the right side of history.

It's even better for your side if you can write it. Even re-write it. We are seeing that now in our own internal politics. Winner take all.

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death.

Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945.

I just finished the book "Twilight of the Gods" great series about the Pacific war.Even after the second bomb the Japan's army almost had a coup to keep fighting.I think an estimate of a million allied lives would have been sacrificed is pretty conservative.

The bombs ended the war and that was a good thing for the U.S. However, since then we rebuild japan for them and apologized 400 times to them for using the big hammer. Those two events opened the door to a nuclear deterrent that many countries have today. But, I do not regret the use of those bombs for a single minute.Right tool, right job. right time. Statement was made and entire world heard it!

Was the second bomb fusion or fission? Is it true that the Physicists were not sure if they were going to
be able to control the reaction, and possibly incinerate the planet?

Both of the atomic bombs that were used against Japan were fission weapons. There was talk among some (likely jokingly) that the explosion would ignite the atmosphere.

Originally Posted by ar15a292f

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death.

Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945.

Most of what the Japanese did with infantry in WWII was horribly inefficient and ineffective. Take Guadacanal, and leave off the Banzai charges. One of their favorite tactics was to take a few highly motivated soldiers in the dead of night and try to infiltrate our positions. They might have a grenade or just a trench knife. It scared the piss out of everyone but most of these infiltrators were killed by our guys before they caused any harm. It was mostly a senseless waste. Another was jungle ambushes. They were good at setting them up, but they got to be fairly predictable. We also quickly figured out that once contact was made, we'd just fall back a bit and either lob mortar or automatic weapons in. They might get one or two casualties inflicted, but we'd bag the whole lot.

Another thing I picked up from reading a memoir of an infantry sniper at Guadacanal was that the Marines pulled out before the real killing started. The Japs had no clue how to respond to artillery, and wherever and whenever we could, we'd make contact with the Japs and then soak the area with Arty. I'm not trying to throw shade on the Marines, but it was the Army that did the bulk of the actual killing. They had the tools for wholesale slaughter.

Another thing to consider is that the US learned from all its mistakes. We generally improved our way of doing things over the course of the conflict. We responded to our own weaknesses and worked them out before the next landing. Japan did not have that. They'd been fighting us for years, sending horribly ill-supplied, woefully small numbers at us and when it all fell in on them, everyone would commit suicide and the process would repeat. At no time was there any commander limping back to tell his superiors "Hey, guys! We really screwed the pooch on this last one. Here's what we need to do next time."

Originally Posted by antlers

Both of the atomic bombs that were used against Japan were fission weapons. There was talk among some (likely jokingly) that the explosion would ignite the atmosphere.

It wasn't a joke. They were dead serious:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/bethe-teller-trinity-and-the-end-of-earth/

Well, at least some of them weren't treating it as a joke.

I believe I recall reading that the US was close to being out of money to continue prosecuting
the war, and this played heavy in the decision making as well. Sounds ridiculous given how they
operate these days, but I think cash was beginning to be a bit of a concern in 1945.

A comparison of a mass attack by Jap troops or civilians might be found in the battle Rorke's Drift in So. Africa in 1876. 3 to 4,000 Zulu's armed with spears tried a mass attack on a British fort defended by about 150 soldiers with muzzle loaders. Discipline won the battle for the Brits. Even with flinters, they were able to hold off the attack by maintaining a steady rate of aimed fire directly into the faces of the attackers. You can imagine the fear experienced by the Brits but they held their ground and won.

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

A comparison of a mass attack by Jap troops or civilians might be found in the battle Rorke's Drift in So. Africa in 1876. 3 to 4,000 Zulu's armed with spears tried a mass attack on a British fort defended by about 150 soldiers with muzzle loaders. Discipline won the battle for the Brits. Even with flinters, they were able to hold off the attack by maintaining a steady rate of aimed fire directly into the faces of the attackers. You can imagine the fear experienced by the Brits but they held their ground and won.

1) They weren't flintlocks Muzzleloaders. They were Martini Henry rifles with brass cartridges.
2) In an invasion of Japan we would have taken the place of the Zulu. We would be attacking well defended positions. A well-defended position has about a 3 to 1 advantage over the attackers.

Originally Posted by ar15a292f

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

The Japs were also training millions of civilians to fight. They had plenty of bodies to spare. They had no guns, though, just pitch forks, sticks, and other hand tools. They were going to be used for mass suicide attacks to try to overrun our troops by sheer numbers. Think about being in a unit of 1000 men. You're attacked by 30 to 40,000 in a mass charge. You can't reload and shoot fast enough to stop them before you're overrun and beaten to death.

Actually the Chinese did this in Korea and it didn't go well for them with mass charges into fixed positions. Semiautomatic rifles, full auto BAR's belt fed air & water cooled machine guns and artillery with proximity fuses caused horrendous casualties for the Chinese troops. The banzai charges by armed Japanese troops were repulsed later on in the Pacific campaign and I don't think that massed charges by civilians armed with spears and pitchforks would have ended differently. Add in armor support and close air support with airplanes using 50 caliber machineguns and napalm and it would have been very gruesome. Americans would have suffered heavy casualties but the outcome would still be the same. Take a look at how the Soviet tanks and troops tore through Japanese forces in Manchuria in August of 1945.

A friend showed me photos he took at Iwo Jima (IIRC) with literally hundreds of Japanese bodies from a Banzai attack. Amazing photos.

Operation Cornet and Olympic had the allies landing with 800K to 900K troops and equipment against over 700,000 Japanese who were dug in and had 7 months to get ready. Amphibious assault against well defended position it would have favored the defenders. IN 1945 American citizens were relieved that the war was over in Germany and the challenge was getting everyone to ramp for a war that would take 4 more years (remember we weren’t in the thick of the Europe theater for much more than two years.

Interview with Japanese officers had them saying that they had figured out the strategy and had time to get ready. The knew MacArthur would go island by island like an imperialist. They were afraid of a main island invasion of Tokyo but had figured out our plan.

The bombs worked and still work to this day as a deterrent unless some radical knotheads get ahold of one.

Originally Posted by shaman

Originally Posted by Rock Chuck

A comparison of a mass attack by Jap troops or civilians might be found in the battle Rorke's Drift in So. Africa in 1876. 3 to 4,000 Zulu's armed with spears tried a mass attack on a British fort defended by about 150 soldiers with muzzle loaders. Discipline won the battle for the Brits. Even with flinters, they were able to hold off the attack by maintaining a steady rate of aimed fire directly into the faces of the attackers. You can imagine the fear experienced by the Brits but they held their ground and won.

1) They weren't flintlocks Muzzleloaders. They were Martini Henry rifles with brass cartridges.
2) In an invasion of Japan we would have taken the place of the Zulu. We would be attacking well defended positions. A well-defended position has about a 3 to 1 advantage over the attackers.

Ok, I wasn't aware that they had 'modern' weapons at that time. Even at that, it took guts to stand there are reload with a forest of spears coming at you.

Originally Posted by slumlord

It’s still early in the thread.
I will wait for : “my grampie,dad, uncle Pete, etc helped with the surrender terms”

Cmon whoever, you can do it

Ok, I'll go.

When I was a little kid my Grandpa who was on the Sea Fox submarine in the Pacific told me that Macarthur asked to borrow his pen to sign the treaty!

I have a friend whose father was a marine in Pacific during WWll. Few years ago he went with his dad to reunion and tour battles he’d fought in. His dad finally broke down viewing Pelieu. He was devastated and heartbroken. He said “we fought and died to take it back only to have Japs return and buy it back with our money”. Not only true in Pacific but our entire west coast. Chinese are buying up or taking the whole damn country. Will we ever wake up?

Originally Posted by bobmn

On Jan 17, 1945 Chief of Staff Marshall and Admiral King sent a letter to the House Military Affairs Committe that 900,000 inductions were required by June 30th. JCS924 Operations Against Japan Subsequent to Formosa warned taking the Home Islands might cost us a half a million American lives and many times that number wounded. 1,531,000 Purple Hearts were produced for the war effort. In 2000, there remained 120,000 Purple Heart medals in stock. Read "Hell to Pay" by D. M. Giangreco.

Thanks for recommending the book. It is a great read and really puts the kabosh on the revisionism.

Originally Posted by Texson2

I have a friend whose father was a marine in Pacific during WWll. Few years ago he went with his dad to reunion and tour battles he’d fought in. His dad finally broke down viewing Pelieu. He was devastated and heartbroken. He said “we fought and died to take it back only to have Japs return and buy it back with our money”. Not only true in Pacific but our entire west coast. Chinese are buying up or taking the whole damn country. Will we ever wake up?

I binge watched 'Pacific' this weekend, damn is about all I can say about any being there.
Can never thank ANY who served enough!

My father was one of those troops waiting to invade. After the battle of manila he said he wished they dropped 100's of the a bombs on Japan on the first day

Originally Posted by antlers

Less than 6.5 kilograms of plutonium 239 did all that damage.

Anything 6.5 is unbelievably deadly and awesome at the same time.

Originally Posted by ChuckKY

Originally Posted by antlers

Less than 6.5 kilograms of plutonium 239 did all that damage.

Anything 6.5 is unbelievably deadly and awesome at the same time.

You jackwagon!

Hahahahaha!

Originally Posted by ChuckKY

Originally Posted by antlers

Less than 6.5 kilograms of plutonium 239 did all that damage.

Anything 6.5 is unbelievably deadly and awesome at the same time.

I see what you did there!

Originally Posted by ChuckKY

Originally Posted by antlers

Less than 6.5 kilograms of plutonium 239 did all that damage.

Anything 6.5 is unbelievably deadly and awesome at the same time.

😂

Family friend was on Wake Island when it was captured. He was a civilian working for Morrison and Knutson.

Spent 4 years in a prison camp.

My dad was wounded on Okinawa. He was I believe in an army hospital when the bombs were dropped. Not sure if he would have eventually been part of an invasion, or not. He sure never had a good thing to say about Japs.

In the summer of '19, Union Parish honored it's WWII vets with a ceremony. Of the 19 living vets in the parish, 11 of them were able to attend. Each veteran was recognized, a short speech about where they served, and a short quote they said about their service was told at the ceremony. Dad's quote was, "If they hadn't dropped the bombs, I probably wouldn't be here today".

I've heard Dad say that deciding to drop the bombs was the only good decision Truman ever made.

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

Nope, me either. My Great Uncle, Howard (Red) Roeder, and two of his team mates were KIA/MIA after their reconnaissance of Yap from the USS Burrfish!

My Dad was a Tech Sergeant stationed at Los Alamos, he was in charge of a group of G.I.'s who drove tanker trucks hauling water to the base. At the end of his service he managed one of the base's assembly halls and movie theater.

Originally Posted by kevinJ

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

What's crazy is your idea that innocents were killed in either attack. Every person in Japan was, by then, contributing to the failing war effort, and was prepared to die, fighting hand to hand to the last one. Innocent? You're a fool...

Gonna change the subject just a little......

I knew several of the men in our community had served in WWII, but you never heard any of them talk about it. Not too long ago, I was talking to the widow of one of the men and found out the her husband and another man I knew, who lived in the community, had served together in the Pacific island hopping battles. This lady told me that her husband had said he wouldn't have been alive if it hadn't been for the other fellow. As they were fighting their way across these islands, the Japanese would have snipers in the trees. The lady told me that this other fellow killed quite of few of them, that her husband said the other fellow hunted them like squirrels.

My next door neighbor to the west was in Europe and he never mentioned the war, but one day an older friend said this neighbor was in some of the worse of the European campaigns. A few months ago, his nephew, now my neighbor, showed me a journal that his uncle had left. In it, was his thoughts about D-day and I suppose the rest of the war. It turns out my neighbor was in one of the first 2 or 3 boats that landed on the beach at Omaha. Everyone of his unit, except for himself, was killed on the beach. He listed some names, remarked that they were all gone, and wrote how scared and lonely he felt. At that point, I quit reading. I felt like I was prying into someone's private affairs, and I had no business doing it.

Didnt kill enough of em.
Wasnt the Nagasaki bomb off target somewhat and some of the effect was asorbed and deflected by surrounding terrian?

Originally Posted by renegade50

Didnt kill enough of em.
Wasnt the Nagasaki bomb off target somewhat and some of the effect was asorbed and deflected by surrounding terrian?

IIRC, Nagasaki set in a bowl type terrain, thus a lot of the blast was directed upward. Everything in the bowl was gone, but outside the bowl there wasn't as much damage.

A man I knew was a Marine radioman on Wake. Captured with everyone else. He was sent ultimately to work a mine with other POW's near Nagasaki and the day after the bomb they were sent into Nagasaki to 'clean up'. He ultimately died of an odd nasopharyngeal tumor that the VA said was due to radiation from the bomb.

A few months earlier, we hit Tokyo with firebombs in a series of devastating raids to destroy their military industry. Unfortunately, they'd built their factories in residential areas so the civilian kill was extremely high. The big one was on March 9th. It was a coincidence of timing that made that one so bad. The Japs had highly flammable houses and fire was always a big risk. They'd developed a sophisticated fire defense program and had regular fire drills that mobilized entire sections of the city. They had one of those drills that evening. People were returning home from the drill when the alarms went off again. They ignored them thinking they were part of the drill they'd just completed. They were wrong and the American bombers came in. None of their planned defenses were put into play because they were totally unready for the attack.
The series of bombing raids over Tokyo eventually killed about 100k people, more than either of the atomic bombs. After months of firebombing raids, the Jap military still wouldn't give up so the A-bombs were necessary to hammer them to the ground.

Plus the bombs gave us some really cool base line themed Godzilla movies from em.👍👍👍👍👍

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

My uncle was too, in Hong Kong. The Japanese interned near 2,000 Canadians, around 800 came home, I don't feel sorry for the enemy.

Originally Posted by OMCHamlin

Originally Posted by kevinJ

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

What's crazy is your idea that innocents were killed in either attack. Every person in Japan was, by then, contributing to the failing war effort, and was prepared to die, fighting hand to hand to the last one. Innocent? You're a fool...

Just remember that those two bombs are probably the best thing that ever happened to Japan. By ending the war, we saved Japan from Gen Curtis LeMay. That boy was just hitting his stride and he and his stats wonks were constantly making their raids more efficient-- more devastation per gallon of fuel, ton of bomb load, etc. By Hiroshima, he'd managed to inflict 60% damage on the top 60 cities in Japan. For comparison, in the US, that would be every city larger than Omaha. This was a man who really enjoyed his work. He was a good friend of my Grandpa. I wouldn't have wanted to get on either of their bad sides.

One other little bit of trivia about Nagasaki:

From Wikipedia:

Quote

After takeoff from Tinian, Bockscar reached its rendezvous point and after circling for an extended period, found The Great Artiste, but not The Big Stink.[4] Climbing to 30,000 feet, the assigned rendezvous altitude, both aircraft slowly circled Yakushima Island. Though Sweeney had been ordered not to wait at the rendezvous for the other aircraft longer than fifteen minutes before proceeding to the primary target, Sweeney continued to wait for The Big Stink, perhaps at the urging of Commander Frederick Ashworth, the plane's weaponeer.[5] After exceeding the original rendezvous time limit by a half-hour, Bockscar, accompanied by The Great Artiste, proceeded to the primary target, Kokura.[6] No fewer than three bomb runs were made, but the delay at the rendezvous had resulted in 7/10ths cloud cover over the primary target, and the bombardier was unable to drop.[7] By the time of the third bomb run, Japanese antiaircraft fire was getting close, and Japanese fighter planes could be seen climbing to intercept Bockscar.[8]

Poor bombing visibility and an increasingly critical fuel shortage eventually forced Bockscar to divert from Kokura and attack the secondary target, Nagasaki.[9] As they approached Nagasaki, the heart of the city's downtown was covered by dense cloud, and Sweeney and the plane's weaponeer, Commander Ashworth, initially decided to bomb Nagasaki using radar.[10] However, a small opening in the clouds allowed Bockscar's bombardier to verify the target as Nagasaki. As the crew had been ordered to drop the bomb visually if possible, Sweeney decided to proceed with a visual bomb run.[11] Bockscar then dropped Fat Man, with a blast yield equivalent to 21 kilotons of TNT. It exploded 43 seconds later at 1,539 feet (469 meters) above the ground, at least 1.6 miles (2.5 kilometers) northwest of the planned aim point.[12][13] The failure to drop Fat Man at the precise bomb aim point caused the atomic blast to be confined to the Urakami Valley. As a consequence, a major portion of the city was protected by the intervening hills, and only 60% of Nagasaki was destroyed. The bombing also severed the Mitsubishi arms production extensively and killed an estimated 35,000–40,000 people outright, including 23,200–28,200 Japanese industrial workers, 2,000 Korean slave laborers, and 150 Japanese soldiers.[14]

Low on fuel, Bockscar barely made it to the runway on Okinawa. With only enough fuel for one landing attempt, Sweeney brought Bockscar in fast and hard, ordering every available distress flare on board to be fired as he did so.[15] The number two engine died from fuel starvation as Bockscar began its final approach.[16] Touching the runway hard, the heavy B-29 slewed left and towards a row of parked B-24 bombers before the pilots managed to regain control.[16] With both pilots standing on the brakes, Sweeney made a swerving 90-degree turn at the end of the runway to avoid going over the cliff into the ocean.[17] 2nd Lt. Jacob Beser recalled that at this point, two engines had died from fuel exhaustion, while "the centrifugal force resulting from the turn was almost enough to put us through the side of the airplane."[18]

After Bockscar returned to Tinian, Col. Tibbets recorded that he was faced with the dilemma of considering “if any action should be taken against the airplane commander, Charles Sweeney, for failure to command.”[19][20][21] After meeting on Guam with Col. Tibbets and Major Sweeney, General Curtis LeMay, chief of staff for the Strategic Air Forces, confronted Sweeney, stating "You [bleep] up, didn't you, Chuck?", to which Sweeney made no reply.[22] LeMay then turned to Tibbets and told him that an investigation into Sweeney's conduct of the mission would serve no useful purpose.[22]

The way I heard it had some of the sugar coating removed. LeMay was going to crucify Sweeney-- court martial him. However someone told Old Iron Pants it might not be a good idea to skewer the guy who might have just won the war. The matter was dropped. Most accounts of the mission whitewash what a fustercluck it really was.

Originally Posted by OMCHamlin

Originally Posted by kevinJ

Those bombs killed a whole whole whole lot of Innocent people

Women, children, elderly people who did nothing wrong. And killed people from radiation induced cancer and illnesses for years after.

Those bombs though, saved more lives than could be imagined by helping to end the war. I read once that people stopped and looked at the devastation caused by those bombs, and began to realize how brutal war was. They took blinders off after that. I forget the exact number, but it was the largest loss of human life in less than 5 or 7 seconds I believe. Crazy isn’t it

What's crazy is your idea that innocents were killed in either attack. Every person in Japan was, by then, contributing to the failing war effort, and was prepared to die, fighting hand to hand to the last one. Innocent? You're a fool...

GFY

If you think by insulting me your somehow making yourself seem intelligent, or more informed on the subject of innocence, you would be incorrect. You could have intelligently disagreed with me, but you chose not to.

So every woman, child, and elderly person was guilty and deserved that death? Simple answer no.

Innocent lives lost to prevent further catastrophe and major loss of life. Ugly thing, but ultimately necessary. Not doubting that it was the best decision.

This core was never detonated and killed a couple physicists.

It's just a matter of time before they are used again. The introduction of nuclear weapons has suppressed the large nation state wars. All the wars since WW2 have been proxy wars. The time is coming and hell will be unleashed.

Originally Posted by local_dirt

Originally Posted by ingwe

My uncle was a P.O.W. of the Japanese....after reading and hearing about the treatment the POWs received I haven't felt a twinge of compassion for those who died under Fat Man and Little Boy.

One of my former bosses was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. A kind and spiritual man, but didn't have anything good to say about his captors.

Principal at our local elementary school ( Cecil Sims ) was the same survivor -a very nice and kind - soft spoken - man - but hated the Japanese. But as my Dad ( also a WWII Marine wounded on Iwo Jima ) said, Cecil was not to be trifled with.

Dont think it has been mentioned, but there were several cities
left pristine in Japan. Purposely.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki among them.

They wanted a clean canvas so as to be able to see the damage from
the bombs.

Nagasaki was unlucky as heck, they weren't top of the list,
And almost missed the big show.

Can't remember what the Japanese call survivors, but they weren't
looked on favorably.

And there were a group of poor bastards that survived Hiroshima,
And were evacuated. To Nagasaki!
Where they enjoyed the sequel.