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I have a nice new rifle, and it's a bit of an odd one. Krieghoff Hubertus single shot German stalking rifle. Slim and light, and chambered for the powerful .30R Blaser cartridge.
There is very little data available for reloading this cartridge, most of what exists is German powders and bullets. I have plenty of good powerful factory loads, RWS EVO bonded 185 gr. @ 2800 fps. So it's a capable round, kinda like a .300 H&H. The only challenge is the recoil. It's pretty "lively" in my light rifle. The factory loads will be great for hunting elk and moose but I don't need that much power for hunting smaller game like deer, or shooting targets.
I have read the advice from Hodgdon about H4895 for reduced loads, but I don't have any on hand and it's not likely I'll find any soon. So this is what I did. Case capacity is about 12% more than a .30-06. 4.94 ml (76 grains H2O) vs. 4.42 ml (68 grains H2O) I picked a couple of loads from the normal load data for a .30-06 and 150 grain Hornady bullets. Chose a couple of single based powders, medium burning rate. Used a Rem 9-1/2 M magnum primer to ensure good ignition with a partial case of powder. Loaded a small test lot 5 shots with 50 grains of RL15 and 5 shots with 50 grains of VV N140. ( Or should I try another powder? I have Varget, Benchmark, and H4350 on hand. )
First results were OK, but not quite what I was after. Muzzle velocity was 2620 fps for both loads. Recoil very mild, Accuracy was so-so. I'd like 2800 fps with the 150 grain bullet, basically duplicating .308 win. performance from the bigger case. Do you think I should do a ladder test to approach the desired velocity with these two powders? Just keep increasing the powder charge till I reach 2800 fps, and assume pressure will be OK in the larger case - or am I off track here?
Your thoughts please.
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Joined: May 2014
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,452 Likes: 2 |
you might look at 300WSM starting loads
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,064 Likes: 4 |
Pressure specs on it are fairly low. Here's what it looks like with the standard 150gr Hornady SP out of a 24" barrel:
Cartridge : .30 R Blaser
Bullet : .308, 150, Hornady SP 3031
Useable Case Capaci: 72.483 grain H2O = 4.706 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.590 inch = 91.19 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 58000 psi, or 399 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
60 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 105.6 75.9 4.92 3209 99.8 58000 12195 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP *C 106.2 74.0 4.80 3171 98.3 58000 12092 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 *C 107.7 73.5 4.77 3147 94.8 58000 12084 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 95.3 66.8 4.33 3143 100.0 58000 10913 1.087 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C 108.1 73.0 4.73 3135 96.9 58000 11775 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 100.1 65.2 4.22 3131 99.9 58000 10928 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 108.1 76.8 4.97 3131 93.1 58000 12034 1.094 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T 110.0 71.9 4.66 3124 100.0 57408 10851 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 106.0 72.7 4.71 3123 95.1 58000 11690 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 106.8 72.1 4.67 3106 94.9 58000 11544 1.082 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 110.0 72.7 4.71 3102 96.4 56164 11681 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 107.4 78.2 5.07 3096 97.4 58000 11234 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 99.9 68.9 4.46 3095 98.9 58000 11039 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 94.3 66.6 4.32 3091 98.2 58000 11039 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 94.3 66.6 4.32 3091 98.2 58000 11039 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 104.3 69.7 4.52 3089 96.7 58000 11191 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 103.6 68.9 4.46 3087 96.5 58000 11111 1.085 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C 99.4 65.7 4.26 3083 99.7 58000 10702 1.102 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C 96.5 65.9 4.27 3081 99.6 58000 10805 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 98.9 66.1 4.28 3081 99.7 58000 10709 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon LVR 96.8 64.7 4.19 3077 99.4 58000 10657 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 89.9 65.5 4.25 3077 99.8 58000 10600 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 104.4 66.8 4.33 3064 99.8 58000 10481 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C 98.9 68.2 4.42 3063 96.4 58000 10883 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 110.0 76.3 4.94 3060 94.7 56926 11288 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 89.8 63.9 4.14 3060 100.0 58000 10228 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 89.4 59.8 3.87 3059 100.0 58000 10264 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 110.0 71.4 4.63 3058 94.1 54271 11480 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 102.2 66.0 4.28 3050 100.0 58000 9900 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 90.2 60.3 3.91 3049 99.9 58000 10224 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T 109.6 71.2 4.61 3049 94.3 58000 10856 1.091 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 105.3 71.2 4.61 3049 94.3 58000 10856 1.091 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 90.7 60.6 3.93 3047 100.0 58000 10142 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 108.1 72.3 4.68 3047 98.9 58000 10592 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 85.3 62.2 4.03 3039 100.0 58000 9971 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 91.6 62.5 4.05 3038 99.5 58000 10306 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 92.1 62.2 4.03 3037 100.0 58000 9982 1.122 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 82.9 59.6 3.86 3036 100.0 58000 9660 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 102.8 72.4 4.69 3035 96.5 58000 10582 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 87.0 58.2 3.77 3035 100.0 58000 9917 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 92.2 60.6 3.93 3034 100.0 58000 9861 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 *C 110.0 73.1 4.74 3034 98.5 50551 11525 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 *C 110.0 72.7 4.71 3033 97.2 57983 10463 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 87.4 58.4 3.78 3033 100.0 58000 9974 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 85.7 61.2 3.96 3032 100.0 58000 9975 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 98.8 65.3 4.23 3031 98.3 58000 10467 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World SW4350 98.8 65.3 4.23 3031 98.3 58000 10467 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 *T 101.4 66.3 4.29 3027 97.6 58000 10369 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 99.5 66.1 4.29 3027 97.7 58000 10356 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N565 *C 110.0 75.5 4.89 3026 93.6 51993 11650 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 89.7 56.0 3.63 3018 100.0 58000 9204 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 6,5 StaBall *T*C 97.7 70.2 4.55 3016 100.0 58000 9610 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 92.9 60.1 3.89 3013 99.9 58000 9841 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 92.6 60.1 3.89 3013 99.9 58000 9841 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 106.2 69.0 4.47 3013 94.6 58000 10514 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Long Rifle 97.5 63.7 4.13 3013 99.1 58000 10140 1.114 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 97.5 63.7 4.13 3013 99.1 58000 10140 1.114 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 95.0 62.7 4.06 3012 98.0 58000 10185 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 85.7 61.8 4.00 3010 99.2 58000 10044 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 84.2 56.5 3.66 3009 100.0 58000 9516 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 93.3 63.2 4.10 3008 97.6 58000 10233 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 93.5 59.0 3.82 3007 99.9 58000 9685 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 87.2 60.1 3.89 3007 100.0 58000 9389 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 85.3 60.1 3.89 3007 100.0 58000 9389 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 87.2 60.1 3.89 3007 100.0 58000 9389 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C 109.6 70.2 4.55 3006 95.2 58000 10319 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 91.2 59.3 3.84 3004 100.0 58000 9529 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision 91.2 59.3 3.84 3004 100.0 58000 9529 1.116 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 91.6 59.9 3.88 3002 100.0 58000 9373 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 85.9 58.2 3.77 3001 99.6 58000 9762 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 86.0 57.4 3.72 3000 100.0 58000 9416 1.103 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 88.5 57.8 3.75 2996 100.0 58000 9489 1.118 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 79.2 57.8 3.74 2991 100.0 58000 9177 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 94.1 60.2 3.90 2989 98.1 58000 9888 1.099 ! Near Maximum !
And here's H4895:
Cartridge : .30 R Blaser
Bullet : .308, 150, Hornady SP 3031
Useable Case Capaci: 72.483 grain H2O = 4.706 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.590 inch = 91.19 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.885% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-08.8 77 51.50 2740 2501 42006 9167 98.7 1.285
-08.0 78 52.00 2763 2543 43052 9238 98.9 1.270
-07.1 79 52.50 2786 2585 44121 9307 99.1 1.255
-06.2 79 53.00 2808 2627 45213 9374 99.3 1.241
-05.3 80 53.50 2831 2669 46330 9438 99.4 1.227
-04.4 81 54.00 2853 2711 47470 9500 99.5 1.213
-03.5 82 54.50 2875 2753 48636 9559 99.7 1.199
-02.7 82 55.00 2897 2796 49827 9616 99.8 1.186
-01.8 83 55.50 2919 2838 51045 9671 99.8 1.173 ! Near Maximum !
-00.9 84 56.00 2941 2881 52289 9723 99.9 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 85 56.50 2963 2924 53560 9772 99.9 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
+00.9 85 57.00 2985 2967 54860 9819 100.0 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
+01.8 86 57.50 3006 3010 56188 9862 100.0 1.122 ! Near Maximum !
+02.7 87 58.00 3028 3053 57545 9904 100.0 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
+03.5 88 58.50 3049 3096 58933 9945 100.0 1.098 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.4 88 59.00 3070 3139 60351 9985 100.0 1.087 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 85 56.50 2998 2993 56192 9667 100.0 1.122 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 85 56.50 2924 2848 50928 9840 99.6 1.174 ! Near Maximum !
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,325
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,325 |
thanks Antelope Sniper, that helps a lot. the standard Hornady .308 150 gr. #3031 is the same bullet I'm using. I have normally interpreted reloading data with a goal of getting the most performance from a cartridge, not a reduced load. So I have another question.
I noticed that your Quickload data specified "user defined minimum of 70%" Would you please explain why that is a good cutoff when considering powders for for this project?
I have never used Quickload before, but assume the loads listed are close to maximum predicted pressure and should be approached from below. I'm not sure how that translates to my goal of "much below" maximum allowable pressure. What are the basic principles / properties of the powder charge that I should be looking for? I assumed that single base powder might be more suitable than double based, and extruded easier to ignite than ball powder. Is that a reasonable assumption?
Last edited by castnblast; 02/27/21.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,325
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,325 |
Also, what does *C*T mean??
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,240 Likes: 6
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,240 Likes: 6 |
Don’t have a 30 blazer but I run H4895 in my 300WM with 165SST at 3000 FPS for a reduced recoil load. H4895 is recommended for reduced loads by Hodgdon and you should check out what they have to say about H4895 reduced loads if you aren’t already familiar. I don’t know for sure, but I bet it would work well for you as suggested by Antelope Sniper.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,325
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,325 |
Jeffrey, Thanks for attempting to be helpful, but it does not appear that you actually read my post before replying. As I explained at first: "I have read the advice from Hodgdon about H4895 for reduced loads, but I don't have any on hand and it's not likely I'll find any soon. "
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,875 Likes: 8 |
2800 with a Hornady 150 is no big deal for a 30-06 with Varget, N140 or RL15. I don't see you running out of pressure headroom getting to 2800 in the larger cartridge, but I can't guess on ignition consistency and accuracy.
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,845 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,845 Likes: 6 |
Try consulting some Cast Bullet manuals...
atthough the data is for lead bullets, they are below max SAAMI specs for Jacketed bullets...
if you can find some, I am a fan of 4198 over reduced H4895 loads...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,535 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,535 Likes: 3 |
Also, what does *C*T mean?? Copper erasing, temp stable.
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Posts: 2,325
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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Seafire, thanks for that. I was wondering if there is a practical limit how much one can reduce loads in large capacity cases before detonation becomes a concern. I know you have a lot of experience with reduced charges of quicker burning powder. I'd give 4198 a try, since I do have some of that powder on hand.
Antelope Sniper, would you please run a calculation in Quick load with H4198 powder? Thanks!
Last edited by castnblast; 02/28/21.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,839
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,839 |
Use H4895
Look up reduced load data on the Hodgdon web site
Maker of the Frankenstud Sling Keeper
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Campfire Savant
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Campfire Savant
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Don’t have a 30 blazer but I run H4895 in my 300WM with 165SST at 3000 FPS for a reduced recoil load. H4895 is recommended for reduced loads by Hodgdon and you should check out what they have to say about H4895 reduced loads if you aren’t already familiar. I don’t know for sure, but I bet it would work well for you as suggested by Antelope Sniper. I do this for 300 Weatherby’s
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 49
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 49 |
In my 416, CZ 550 safe for mine, trail boss and lead bullets. Makes a difference.
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