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Reloading the .450 BP Express? #15787470 02/14/21
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Rancocas Offline OP
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Does anyone have any reloading data for the .450 Black Powder Express?

This is NOT the .450 Nitro Express.

BP-B2

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15789043 02/14/21
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Welcome to the Campfire.

I take it your cases are 3-1/4 inch?

Your rifle is probably twisted to shoot a max 350-360 grain bullet.

Buy or cast and size them to .458 inch, have or lube them with a good black powder lube.

Loading 120 grains of any 1F black powder will keep you in a safe spec spot provided the rifle has been Gunsmith inspected and deemed safe to shoot, you can then adjust powder slightly up or down to find sight regulation provided this is a double rifle.

A set of dies
Brass
A drop tube
458 cal powder compression die
458 cal taper crimp die
30 thousandths 458 cal Walters fiber wads
458 cal brass cleaning jag
Hickory wiping stick
458 cal cotton cleaning patches

Most all of these components can be purchased from Buffalo Arms.

I bet Montana Bullet Works has a bullet for you, they'll size em to 458 and lube em with black powder lube.

Good luck and happy shooting/hunting.


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15795235 02/16/21
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Rancocas Offline OP
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thank you.

yes it is the 3 1/4 case and yes it is a double barrel. It is over 100 years old. No manufactory's mark, but it has Birmingham inspection marks and the name of a sporting goods company in Scotland. It is in good, workable condition.

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15804956 02/18/21
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You're most welcome Rancoas, sounds like a hell of a nice rifle.


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15923632 03/21/21
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Great guidance from gunner500.

This thread got me to look up the Graeme Wright data on the .450 x 3-1/4" BP Express.
I was surprised to see that his pressure tested data for duplexed loads (SR4759 + GOEX) was only 6.7 to 8.1 tpsi,
lower pressures than the old standard ammo with 19th-century BP, 11.0 to 12.0 tpsi.

Whether those duplexed loads would shoot to regulation is another question.
The lighter powder mass with duplexed loads would raise the muzzles less and the rifle might shoot low and crossed
without the full mass ejecta of a straight BP load and its greater recoil.

From another thread, here are the excerpts for book review purposes:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That is an excellent book. The general chapters cover many aspects of the care and feeding of double rifles and single shots firing same ammo.

Very interesting how 20 grains of SR4759 plus 60 grains of BP is equivalent to 120 grains of BP with similar pressures for both loads.
Very low pressure with .458-caliber cast bullets of 320 to 358 grains and a 350-gr jacketed soft nose.
Only 6.7 to 8.1 tpsi, whereas the historical pressures for similar bullets, BP charges, barrel lengths, and velocities were 11.0 to 12.0 tpsi.
The imperial tonne or "long ton" is 2240 lbs. 12.0 tpsi = 26,880 psi.
The duplexed 358-gr cast bullet at 1700 fps has a pressure of 7.2 tpsi = 16,128 psi.

1 grain of the smokeless "pistol powder" substitutes for 3 grains of BP.
Cork wads 3/8" thick sit between bullet and powder.
Must be no or very little compression of powder.
By total weight of propellants, the duplexed BP load is 25% smokeless.
Seems like a high percentage of smokeless by weight might be helpful with light bullets ?
Kirton recommended a load of 5 grains SR4759 plus 85 grains of GOEX FFg in the .461 Gibbs with 540-gr bullet.
That is a bit over 5% smokeless by weight, worked well with the heavier bullet, for about 100-gr equivalency to BP.

The old Curtis & Harvey No. 6 BP must have given higher pressures (and velocities ? ) than GOEX.
GOEX is apparently easily and safely spiffed up with SR4759, eliminates most of the BP fouling,
and gives lower pressure than the old BP loads !


Ron

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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15924094 03/21/21
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Probably the easiest place to start would be fill the case with Olde Eynsford 1f, use a compression die, or the expander die if you have a 3 die set to push a .060 fiber wad down far enough to let a 350 grain bullet seat to the driving band. Let the target tell you what you need to do next.


the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
www.historicshooting.com
Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Riflecrank] #15928935 03/23/21
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WOW, Thanks Ron, i need to get that book, bet i could spend a week in there and not look up!


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15931312 03/23/21
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I never had a double rifle but several scatter guns. learned to keep two fingers off the double trigger the 10 ga had LOL.

I have a Corbin swage press and .459 dies plus around 3000 jackets left I used for swaging bullets for the 95 Marlin and later on I swaged some for the .45-120/3-1/4 pedersoli 74 Sharps and loaded them with 118 gr of 1F Goes using the 350 to 500 gr swaged jacketed bullets in that rifle and they shot very well better accuracy then I could get from the O-3-A3.
I was always fascinated with the doubles but never got a rifle.

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Kurt71] #15931335 03/23/21
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Dang Kurt, you and Riflecrank would make some FINE neighbors, i'd just sneak in quietly and be a fly on the wall and watch you guys get it done!

I have three double rifles, still hoping Rancocas will post some pics of his 450 BP Express.



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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15931416 03/23/21
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Well Jerry, I bet the neighbors would hear a lot of thunder rolling off my hill LOL.

IC-B

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Kurt71] #15931469 03/23/21
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Yes Sir Kurt, they here it here as well, i have to believe that's also a very friendly theft deterrent reminder, should they be standing around contemplating, and then BOOOMMMM!!...........that would have to remind even a criminal idiot of how fast it ALL ends.


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15931477 03/23/21
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Here is one of the .458 bullets I swaged for the jacketed .95 and the Sharps.

The other are a .308 that clones the Lapua match plus the .45 ACP hardballs [Linked Image]

Attached Files
image.jpeg (27.13 KB, 63 downloads)
Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Kurt71] #15931560 03/23/21
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NICE, you just wait till Riflecrank see's this Kurt, you know, Kentucky and Illinois aren't too terribly far apart? ; ]

Plus, us like minded men have to remain in contact, sadly enough that number decreases daily, we should all stop saying someday, we have the money for a tank of fuel, clear a spot on the calendar, throw our wares in the truck and go do it. smile


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15931606 03/23/21
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LOL, In the morning I'm heading down to Louisville to pickup the cookie munchers during their Spring break. Right close to his neighborhood laugh

Here is my .44-77 hunting rifle. I have two the other is my match rifle.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Version 2 by .com/photos/leadpot/]Kurt, on [bleep]

this is what a 485 gr .44-77 bullet does to a Bison scull shot behind the ear for a fast kill.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]IMG_3844 by .com/photos/leadpot/]Kurt, on [bleep]
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]IMG_3842 by .com/photos/leadpot/]Kurt, on [bleep]

don't make a head shot if you want to mount the head laugh

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Kurt71] #15931748 03/23/21
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DANG, talk about an Excedrin moment LOL, Pure Gold there Kurt, we need to see if Riflecrank would host us for a fall deer hunt as he is more centrally located, i dont give a hoot if i kill anything or not, just like to sit around a fire and listen with you two. smile


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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15932180 03/23/21
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Jerry, the deer hunting around here is pitiful compared to a bison shoot in Nebraska.
Keep an ear to the ground for bison.
The .458 WM+ and .45-2.6" Sharps using the same bullets and BP charges would be my preferred buffler guns.
I have an extra copy of the 2nd Ed. of Graeme Wright's book (1999), but it is only about 180 pages. Third edition (2009) is about a hundred pages more.
The 2nd edition will get you started on your Graeme Wright collection,
and allow me to get even with you for sending those cast bullets to me.

Kurt71, nice bullets, but that Corbin stuff is above my paygrade, I'm still learning the many ways of cast bullets.
Love that .44-77, born same time as the .461 Gibbs and so much like it.


Ron

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Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Rancocas] #15932308 03/24/21
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Yes Ron, the Corbin stuff is high priced, higher than it could be.I started swaging back in the late 50's with the Hemp and Herters equipment because I could not get the bullets I wanted over the counter so I made my own.
I have put down three Bisons, one with the .44-90BN Sharps and two with the .44-77 and the .44-90 bn is like Thors hammer. I was going to use the .50-90 on the next one but Rick Hamilton in Neb. sold the heard and retired. I been looking for another place but the Nebraska meat taste better than the North Dakota laugh Something in the grass I think.
Well I have to get on the road.
You guys take care..........Kurt

Re: Reloading the .450 BP Express? [Re: Riflecrank] #15935817 03/25/21
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10-4 on the skinny deer, will keep an ear out for Nebraska Buffler hunts, the 458 Win Mag+ loaded like a Sharps indeed highlights the + in it's name, more versatility, Goldie would be fun too, many buy a donkeys for Mr. Wright's book, that's going to be a great read.

Kurt, i'm with Ron on the Corbin tools, above my pargrade [skill set] as well, would be fun wading in with proper instruction drawing down/forming/swage out a pile of custom slugs for a specific hunt, i have only used my 44-77 with 475gr paper patch bullet on two animals, a coyote pup at 200 yards and a descent 9pt last season at iirc 156 yards, both easy one shot immediate kills.


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