Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Glad to see you boys doing the Lord's work on Cast bullets in the 458WM+ as this is just what the Pandemic ordered. What bullet shortage?

Way exaggerated mould count, but I wish.
Still waiting for the Accurate Molds .460"/ 485-grainer mould.
I ain't too proud to beg.

Black is all about the balance of lube and wipe I think the experts say. I know you have to keep the fouling soft to create the environment for anything to work for more than one shot. I find this still true with Lubed and smokeless. Black just accentuates it as it creates more fouling. SharpsGuy can illuminate the issue we know.

Sir Dennis,
Sorry to say that sharpsguy, Bill Bagwell, has passed on to the Happy Hunting Ground.
If we make it there, find him by the ringing of the gongs and rising clouds of BP smoke signals.
Don't be a stranger here. "Beware the man with only one cast bullet mould for his .458 WM+. He probably knows how to use it."
480-ish grain FN ?
Saint Bagwell would approve of that bullet weight for .45-bore, but even he used more than one bullet mould.
He even had at least one smokeless load that I know of for the 480-gr PH in the .45-70 Govt.

Grease cooky or lube cookie: I am thinking I will use a BeesWax & Olive Oil Biscuit (BWOOB) with both paper-patched and grease-grooved bullets shooting BP,
with poker card wad on both sides of the BWOOB.
The Rigby muzzleloaders used "tallow tempered with wax" (nonvegetarian) between their powder and paper-patched bullets.

Nice, with grease groove, i'd only add an over the powder wad, the grease cookie will sit/work just fine with a flat based cast bullet sitting on top, it's how i load my 45 3-1/4 with the 500gr gov bullet, easy 100gr OE 2F, card wad, grease cookie of around 190 thou, seat bullet, taper crimp, and let fly to 1488 fps, have ran em to 1650 fps, not necessary.

Well, I am a humble student of the Crusade for Truth, slowly doing my own experimentation with the King of Cartridges, and unworthy to be compared to the the Knights of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum. But in due time, I aspire to be worthy of the title "Sir Jeffrey, Knight of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum."

Thanks for asking!

I hope to have some updates soon on my experimentation.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no reason we cant have a personal collaboration either Sir, same state and all.

Hannay,
You can be the first to be officially Knighted with a tap on the shoulders by the flat of Sir Jerry's Bagwell Bowie.
What an honor that would be, in the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum !

Sorry to hear that our SharpsGuy has left us. Very glad that we got to correspond with him while we could then. My place in the company of the King of Kings is assured by the blood of His Son so I will be sure to look for Bill squinting at the front sight. A good reminder for us all, you have to know where to look to hold steady.
Best regards sir.

Happy news, 70 grains of FFg sitting on top of 10 grains of SR4759 is a formula equivalent to 100 grains of BP.
No drop tube used.
Layered into a Norma .458 WM case (which has a once-fired gross H2O capacity of about 99 grains)
the powder level is about 0.4" from case mouth.
Placing one of the poker-card wads over the powder,
and simply running the RCBS neck expander/belling plug back into the case for proper belling depth,
leaves the over-powder poker-card wad about 0.710" below the case mouth.
Plenty of room for a BWOOB of lube with the 570-gr bullet seated to first cannelure/grease groove.
All grease inside of case.
COL of that cartridge will be about 3.34".
Good in any SAAMI .458 WM if it will shoot accurately.

Paper-patched will be left long in the COL.
They slip into the case with no neck expanding or belling needed other than a kiss from the plug to round the case mouths.
Plenty of room for a lube BWOOB there.
I don't guess it could hurt unless it makes the paper patch stick to the base of the bullet,
so maybe a second poker-card wad to make a BWOOB sandwich between powder and bullet ?
Maybe a double BWOOB if needed to fill the case for no powder shake.

I could put a single thickness paper "wad" (.002") between the SR4759 and the BP,
but I guess not necessary with compressed BP for the 570-grain greaser,
or 100% filled with BWOOB for the paper-patched 555-grainer, for no powder movement inside the case.
F215 primer.

The trick for the paper-patched in the .458 WM is to FL-size the case with a Redding FL die.
This reduces the brass to smaller diameter such that the PP bullet cannot enter the case
until the Redding neck-expander/belling plug is used to expand the neck for only about a quarter inch of depth from case mouth.
Any mild compression of BP is done in seating the bullet.
Yes, the Redding dies size to smaller diameters than the RCBS, Lee and Hornady FL dies.
I finally found a use for the Redding .458 WM dies.

Both loads are lightly touched with a Lee Factory Crimp die, the paper-patched more lightly than the grease-grooved.

You're set Sir Ron, and yes on the paper patch, taper crimp just enough so bullets can be turned with fingers in case with light pressure, just enough hold to keep them from falling out of the case.

Sir Jerry,

I have noticed your Bagwellian method of indexing the bullet on the 570-grainer.
I will try to make use of it when loading the grease-grooved bullets into a bolt action, for accuracy purposes.

As for the 555-gr paper-patched, I will go to single shot in the form of Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger
the .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated, aka .45-70 Elko Magnum.
Will seat the PP bullets less deeply and more loosely, my .45-100 Sharps dies should work better there.
Ironically, the .45-2.6" Starline brass for that is going to have a couple less grains of water gross than the Norma .458 WM 2.5" brass,
but that is plenty !

I am also going to load the 570-grainer to full-blown 3.6" COL with two grease grooves inside the case,
and two grease grooves outside the case.
That will work through the magazine box of an M70 .458 WM+.
The bands and grooves on your 570-grainer line up perfectly for 3.6" COL, even better than for 3.340" COL.
The exposed grease grooves will be dipped in melted BWOO lube to fill the grooves and rest of projecting bullet wiped clean.
Then a small piece of CUT-RITE wax paper will be wrapped around the bullet for transport in ammo box.

Sir Dennis has often opined that exposed grease gooves ain't a bad thing with normal care of ammo.
It is absolutely not a problem if the bullet is hardcast, powder-coat painted, sized to .461" and gas checked.

All of this is about seeing how duplexed BP works in a .458"-grooved rifle with a .458 Winchester Magnum throat using soft alloy, grease-lubed bullets sized to 0.458".
Marcella Winchester-McGowen the .458 WM+ has .458" grooves and 1:14" twist.

It is also about seeing how duplexed BP works with soft alloy paper-patched bullets sized to only 0.448" (over the patch) in a Pedersoli barrel that has 1:18" twist,
with a SAAMI .458 WM throat on the end of a .45-2.6" Sharps chamber.
That barrel was advertised to be .458"-grooved and .450"-bored, but it might have a little choke near the muzzle, down to .456" or .457" in the grooves.
I think that barrel will better give the respect due to the hallowed paper patch.

Also will use a single layer of CUT-RITE wax paper "wad" of 0.0015" thickness according to Saint Bagwell who gave his blessing on their use.
That will go between grease cookie and any bullet,
saving the poker-card wads for over-powder use only.

So the first two loads shown most recently above will be pulled and reassembled to new specs and used as fouling shots.
So be it.

Nice, cant wait to see/hear the shooting reports, imho NO mould is perfect, they all have hidden flaws, with the mould half pimple, the pimple goes precisely under my left thumb into the lubri-sizer, in turn that pimple goes into the chamber at 12 o'clock high, any flaws can then be adjusted to shoot to the rifle/sights, each and every time.

Just told a buddy about making a first shot 700 yard hit with barrel sights and a 152 year old Buffalo rifle, he said horseshlt, i then referred him to the vids Pacecars posted for us, then went on to explain the ladders are of the same height on the old rifle as with my newer Shilohs, also told him to pay close attention to the 100 yard shot video, notice before i shot at 100 i had the ladder up, had just made a 200 yard shot to gauge the wind, he texted back, OH, good shooting buddy.

Many dont get these rifles worked 150 years ago, they still work today if you feed them right, much like the days of old matchscores and records you posted, specifically remember one poster on this board questioning Saint Bagwell about shooting his 45-70 at 500 yards, that guy started quoting drops at those ranges basically calling him a liar and said it was impossible.

I advised him to bring his money and favorite catchers mitt, squat down at 600 yard and have Saint Bagwell fire him a fastball, i also advised to bring a driver, as he wouldn't be remembering the trip back home. also remember it was time to go brim fishing, the crickets came out and the thread died.

You're going to have a blast with these experiments.

Sir Jerry and Sir Ron,
"first shot 700 yard hit with barrel sights and a 152 year old Buffalo rifle" That's what I mean about being unworthy! I'm pretty sure I've never hit anything at 700 yards! Nor, come to think of it, have any place to shoot 700 yards! :-)

Seriously though - Sir Jerry - are these videos online? Can you post a link?
Thanks,
Jeff

Hannay, from the BPCR thread here, "Bill Bagwell Eulogies":



Yep, that works. See pacecars shoot his .50-90 after the 700-yarder by Sir Jerry.

The shop mules:



After four shots of smokeless with Linotype sized to 0.461", patched once with Hoppe's No. 9:













I have 3 of those discontinued Weaver DG scopes. True 1X on lowest power, bright and sharp as a copper penny and a Bagwell Bowie.

OOH how I love Goldie. I can smell the Buffalo on the south wind as they make their way up from the Llano Estacado, following the grass back to the Great Plains summer range.

Thanks. That little white dot of a target is way out there.

OOH how I love Goldie. I can smell the Buffalo on the south wind as they make their way up from the Llano Estacado, following the grass back to the Great Plains summer range.