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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Stophel
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.


Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did.

It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together.

I had better just stop right there.


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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing -- Edmund Burke
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Originally Posted by Stophel
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Stophel
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.
Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did. It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together. I had better just stop right there.
With attitudes such as that, it’s no wonder that church attendance continues to decline in this country. Nobody resists churches because they love others too much. Nobody resists churches because they are too welcoming of others. Nobody resists churches because they are too willing to carry others people's burdens. Nobody resists churches because they're so forgiving and so open and so gracious. What many people find so easy to resist about churches is the very attitude displayed by you via your above posts. And it ‘is’ the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. People don't resist churches because of Jesus...people resist churches because of ‘Christians’. Thank God following Jesus does not mean following other ‘Christians’.


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Antlers, the trouble isn't how church goers treat people, it's that the people who need help the most want it the least.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone
Antlers, the trouble isn't how church goers treat people,...
Often, it is ‘exactly’ that. Gunner and some others who have spoken up have clearly stated so from their perspectives.
Originally Posted by Tyrone
...it's that the people who need help the most want it the least.
Sometimes that is true as well.


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Originally Posted by Stophel
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Stophel
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.


Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did.

It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together.

I had better just stop right there.


Just an honest question: If evangelizing is no part of the pastor’s job, and you’re not good at it, then how does it happen at all?

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Originally Posted by efw

Originally Posted by CRS


Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.


Unlike most?

Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?

I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.

Do you agree?

No , you seem to be a live, let live type when it comes to your faith. Not forcing your beliefs or judging anyone else.

I do not think your belief is complete and utter nonsense. I respect your beliefs. Freedom of religion and all.....


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This is off topic, but has anyone here seen The Chosen series & did you like it?


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antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.

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Originally Posted by Stophel
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”



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Originally Posted by Stophel
Originally Posted by antlers
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.

In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).



The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).



I would add this thought for consideration. Is the church service something that we are to do or are we there to receive something?. That question is not new in the history of the church all the way back to the Garden. Does God need us to “go do something” or is He doing something for His people during the divine service? Looking back finding an answer to that enlightening.

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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Stophel
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”




Problem is that I’ve never found the latitude given in scripture for the Christian to view God as he pleases or chooses.

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Not much change here in Vermont which according to what I have read is one of..... if not the least church going state. Church parking lots are used mostly for farmers markets now.


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Originally Posted by IZH27
Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by Stophel
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”
Problem is that I’ve never found the latitude given in scripture for the Christian to view God as he pleases or chooses.
It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian is completely dependent upon “scripture” to tell them what their own “view” of God is. There were tens of thousands of Christians who knew the God of the New Testament before there ever was a New Testament. They knew that God loved them, and what God had done for them, before a New Testament ever told them so. Some people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Others prefer to choose a ‘relationship’ that is dictated to them by what’s between the covers of a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began. Nor did it exist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Then in the 4th century when the Christian scriptures were bound together with the Hebrew scriptures to become ‘the Bible’...it was kept out of the hands of the people by the Church for another 1200 years. Christians have been without ‘the Bible’ for a whole lot longer than they’ve had it.


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Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama.

He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! cool i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.


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Originally Posted by IZH27
Originally Posted by Stophel
Originally Posted by antlers
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.

In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).
I would add this thought for consideration. Is the church service something that we are to do or are we there to receive something?. That question is not new in the history of the church all the way back to the Garden. Does God need us to “go do something” or is He doing something for His people during the divine service? Looking back finding an answer to that enlightening.
Jesus didn’t come to “receive something,” He came to “do” something. He didn’t come to ‘be served,’ but ‘to serve.’ He made this crystal clear to His disciples. Jesus taught His disciples to be servants. He taught them service and humility. He even washed their stinking’ feet...!


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Originally Posted by gunner500
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama.
He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! cool i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
Indeed...!


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Originally Posted by antlers
Originally Posted by gunner500
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama.
He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! cool i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
Indeed...!


As i was driving away that 'mysterious ways" deal i remember from vacation bible school flashed across my brain pan ; ]


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Originally Posted by antlers
It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian is completely dependent upon “scripture” to tell them what their own “view” of God is. There were tens of thousands of Christians who knew the God of the New Testament before there ever was a New Testament. They knew that God loved them, and what God had done for them, before a New Testament ever told them so. Some people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Others prefer to choose a ‘relationship’ that is dictated to them by what’s between the covers of a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began. Nor did it exist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Then in the 4th century when the Christian scriptures were bound together with the Hebrew scriptures to become ‘the Bible’...it was kept out of the hands of the people by the Church for another 1200 years. Christians have been without ‘the Bible’ for a whole lot longer than they’ve had it.
The pre-Bible Christians had the preaching of actual Apostles at first, plus they had the Old Testament. In fact, many of them met in synagogues and read OT scripture. Before the Apostles were dead, they had their writings and the writings of their first students. They also had the spoken teaching of ordained successors. None of the early diocese had all the new writings, but they all had some. It didn't take very long for word to get out that some writings were better than others, and the good ones got copied and shared.

So it was never like the original Christians were without guidance, they didn't come up with their own beliefs.


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