For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the past few years especially, the secular religion of politics has become an obsession. On the Left and Right, adherence to a political philosophy can overshadow, or at the very least compete with, all other long-held beliefs. While the shift didn't suddenly begin in 2008, it was certainly pushed further along by Barack Obama's presidency. In response to his eight years in office, the Right searched for an answer that would stem the tide of progressivism. President Donald Trump created his own revival among the GOP faithful. Many religious conservatives even found a deep connection between his election victory and the idea that God would save the nation through him. But political allegiance isn't the same as spiritual, no matter how closely they resemble one another.
Americans seem to be finding a religious-type fervor in things outside the walls of the church, political or otherwise. Added into the mix is a pandemic that has discouraged attendance, and churches are emptier than ever. The global health crisis upended life as usual, and even committed attendees had to change their habits for safety reasons. At the start of the pandemic, nearly every church in America shut its doors to in-person services. By the end of last year, roughly 80% had opened back up for these regular services. But attendance is still incredibly low compared to pre-pandemic levels.
According to the Pew Research Center, the percentage of Americans who consider themselves to be nonreligious or unaffiliated is now at 29%. This has been a somewhat rapid rise from the 17% who said the same in 2009. As those who identify as Protestant or Catholic decrease, the so-called nones, as Pew describes them, have risen.
Eviction moratorium is unconstitutional, federal judge rules This shift toward a less religious American landscape is a loss for society. Beyond the chief reason for church, communing with God, and meeting with those of like-mind, church attendance brings other benefits. Religious communities are important players in cities and towns. A 2019 study by Pew shows that those who attend and are actively involved in church tend to self-describe as happier and more civically involved than their counterparts. It's not a mystery as to why this is the case. Connecting with others who share similar beliefs in a regular setting brings a strong sense of belonging. The camaraderie is unlike anything else found in other community organizations.
Our national discourse is fraught with anger and tension. There has been great struggle, sacrifice, and sadness over the past year. There is uncertainty surrounding both economic and public health. With challenges still remaining, there is no better time to seek spiritual guidance and hope at places that foster relationships and fellowship.
Kimberly Ross (@SouthernKeeks) is a contributor to the Washington Examiner's Beltway Confidential blog and a columnist at Arc Digital.
It like mean nothing more that those who attended for social or family reasons alone leaving.
Another reason could the abandonment of true Orthodoxy by most congregations and denominations. People who want genuine faith becoming tired of a hollow and or entertainment drive social club.
As was said in a post the other day most of Western philosophy, morality, and society are rooted in a faith in god. Our founders said as much. There are exceptions but as a whole whiteout a deep rooted faith in god based in Christian teachings why would anyone believe in individual liberty, capitalism, honesty, property rights, nuclear families or anything else enshrined in Western culture. There’s a reason that virtually every communist country is atheist.
Without a God and Christian faith we might just as well all take what we can get however we can get it like the Chinese or antifa.
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
I was raised Roman Catholic too. Their church lost a lot of credibility when they moved those priests to other churches to continue their crimes, didn't they?
The awesome words the Lord spoke that you quoted are true. As perfect words as those are, He wasn't speaking about where a man goes at death in Matthew 18:20. He does meet by means of His Spirit with groups of believers in prayer for sure. The video might explain. Feel free to ask if you disagree or whatever reason. Hope this is a blessing. https://youtu.be/pO1O93PLNrA
As was said in a post the other day most of Western philosophy, morality, and society are rooted in a faith in god. Our founders said as much. There are exceptions but as a whole whiteout a deep rooted faith in god based in Christian teachings why would anyone believe in individual liberty, capitalism, honesty, property rights, nuclear families or anything else enshrined in Western culture. There’s a reason that virtually every communist country is atheist.
Without a God and Christian faith we might just as well all take what we can get however we can get it like the Chinese or antifa.
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
I was raised Roman Catholic too. Their church lost a lot of credibility when they moved those priests to other churches to continue their crimes, didn't they?
The awesome words the Lord spoke that you quoted are true. As perfect words as those are, He wasn't speaking about where a man goes at death in Matthew 18:20. He does meet by means of His Spirit with groups of believers in prayer for sure. The video might explain. Feel free to ask if you disagree or whatever reason. Hope this is a blessing.
Maybe this speaker can show from God's Word when Jesus changed His mind. Jesus clearly stated in Mark 16:16, The one who believes and is baptized will be saved. The first sermon by an apostle told people to repent and be baptized. So it must have been after that.
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
That’s definitely taking Matthew out of context if you’ve come to that conclusion. Jesus made clear the path to the father and it isn’t by good works. Happy Easter and best wishes from a forgiven sinner. WMR
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
That’s definitely taking Matthew out of context if you’ve come to that conclusion. Jesus made clear the path to the father and it isn’t by good works. Happy Easter and best wishes from a forgiven sinner. WMR
It isn't about gathering once a week and giving money to build ornate buildings either. Follow the Ten Commandments and you're off to a great start. Many of the other "rules" were made by man, not God.
If you folks think it's getting bad now just wait till the true body of believers is taken out of this world, what we term as the rapture. You will then be left with a world devoid of any presence of God. Is that what people want? For evil to have no restrictions?
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
That’s definitely taking Matthew out of context if you’ve come to that conclusion. Jesus made clear the path to the father and it isn’t by good works. Happy Easter and best wishes from a forgiven sinner. WMR
It isn't about gathering once a week and giving money to build ornate buildings either. Follow the Ten Commandments and you're off to a great start. Many of the other "rules" were made by man, not God.
No argument there. I do enjoy the fellowship of gathering together and it helps me keep my head and heart right. 10 Commandments? Golly, I struggle constantly with the big 2. I am totally undeserving of the grace I’ve been given. I suspect you and I would agree on many things. Best wishes for a joyous Easter, however you decide to celebrate it.
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
That’s definitely taking Matthew out of context if you’ve come to that conclusion. Jesus made clear the path to the father and it isn’t by good works. Happy Easter and best wishes from a forgiven sinner. WMR
It isn't about gathering once a week and giving money to build ornate buildings either. Follow the Ten Commandments and you're off to a great start. Many of the other "rules" were made by man, not God.
No argument there. I do enjoy the fellowship of gathering together and it helps me keep my head and heart right. 10 Commandments? Golly, I struggle constantly with the big 2. I am totally undeserving of the grace I’ve been given. I suspect you and I would agree on many things. Best wishes for a joyous Easter, however you decide to celebrate it.
+1. I was raised a Catholic and the Church's dealings have sickened me. So I go this way
Quote
Matthew 18:20 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
I don't really need organized religion. If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
I was raised Roman Catholic too. Their church lost a lot of credibility when they moved those priests to other churches to continue their crimes, didn't they?
The awesome words the Lord spoke that you quoted are true. As perfect words as those are, He wasn't speaking about where a man goes at death in Matthew 18:20. He does meet by means of His Spirit with groups of believers in prayer for sure. The video might explain. Feel free to ask if you disagree or whatever reason. Hope this is a blessing.
Maybe this speaker can show from God's Word when Jesus changed His mind. Jesus clearly stated in Mark 16:16, The one who believes and is baptized will be saved. The first sermon by an apostle told people to repent and be baptized. So it must have been after that.
I just had my post somehow deleted and it's about my bedtime. I'll make this brief for you and my Pentecostal as well as Campbellite friends.
It helps to understand the gospel before anything else. Jesus gave His own life for us and there's nothing we can add to purchase His gift offered to us freely . He did not endure the tortures that every man deserves inflicted upon himself for every sin, then say it is NOT enough...you have to show your amazing obedience to get in the water before you are saved. Its either GRACE or it's WORKS. Which is it? Grace is why we celebrate His death and resurrection. He paid for it. Works is.....we fail and earned a big fat F. YOU are a failure. I am a failure. We do not pass by going through the sprinkling or submersion by a priest.
Keep this in mind. In the N.T. there's three baptisms that are distinctly different.....Fire, Water, and the Holy Spirit.
"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11
He is speaking to people of different spiritual designations.... Saved are the only ones that he will baptize. Baptism means to immerse or dip under. Water baptism represents the Death, BURIAL, and resurrection. This is why Christ was baptized. Why else would He? Do you think that John was washing away the sins of the sinLESS Saviour? He had no sin. Their salvation is not conditional on baptism Their baptism in WATER is condition upon whether or not John thinks those people were already saved. If they were not, he preached the GOSPEL without works to them.
The Saviour will sometime baptize all . John preached that. It will EITHER be in Fire or with the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ and family of believers.
The condemned are not going to be baptized by the Holy Spirit. They will face baptism in hell, and eventually the lake of fire..... Revelation 21:8
As soon as someone rejects their "good works" for that which Christ Himself bsecured, that man is saved from the baptism of fire. The gift of Everlasting life is given at that moment. What also occurs is the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and baptizes them. See the last thing Jesus Himself said to His disciples before He left to go to the Father.
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence".
"Not many days hence "was the day of Pentecost. This is where the Cambellites religion tells us that Acts 2:38 is just the opposite of what Christ just told them VERY CLEARLY before He left them. His clear instructions were that the Holy Ghost would baptize them. The examples were miraculous and very obvious that sermon you refered to. They had a physical manifestation of the Holy Spirit which only happened very few times in history. They spoke languages that they did not know. These were in different tongues/languages known by foreigners at this meeting. It could not be made known plainer to those who attended and those of us reading this. Believe and be baptized. He was not telling them a requirement before salvation was possible. Baptism was the occurance at believing in Christ apart from works. Believe not and don't be baptized and be damned? No. "Belive NOT and be damned." Just like Jesus said to Nicodemus at the beginning of John. 3:18.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Please go back and read again and study this valuable information. The preachers who spread a works based false gospel have not understood this basic teaching of salvation so do not depend upon them. Prayerfully study this out and ask the Lord Himself if what I just said is true or a total lie. It is worth investigating since the different baptisms are completely different. This is why John and Jesus rebuked the false preachers so harshly, and called them venomous vipers, wicked hypocrites, blind leaders of blind.... They were leading people to hell... baptism in fire.
I don't want that for you, uphiker or anyone else here. Pleàse think about this over the next few days.
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the Christian church, it's a lot worse than that. In recent years, many churches have turned their backs on the Lord, preaching homosexuality and other sins. They are no longer Christian no matter what they call themselves. For accurate numbers you need to subtract the members of non-Christian churches. The Bible tells of a great falling away from the Word as the end days approach. Is this it?
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the Christian church, it's a lot worse than that. In recent years, many churches have turned their backs on the Lord, preaching homosexuality and other sins. They are no longer Christian no matter what they call themselves. For accurate numbers you need to subtract the members of non-Christian churches. The Bible tells of a great falling away from the Word as the end days approach. Is this it?
They've been saying that for 2k year. Every generation claims they live in the end days.
One could look back at times/places where church attendance was darn near 100%.
Granted, why attendance was so high doesn't paint a pretty picture......
Organized religion reminds me of communism. Despite all the history behind them, the true believers always think that they're the ones who will finally do it right.
One could look back at times/places where church attendance was darn near 100%.
Granted, why attendance was so high doesn't paint a pretty picture......
Organized religion reminds me of communism. Despite all the history behind them, the true believers always think that they're the ones who will finally do it right.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
Romans 3:23 NIV ..... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Isaiah 64:6 ...... But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness [good works] is as filthy rags
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the Christian church, it's a lot worse than that. In recent years, many churches have turned their backs on the Lord, preaching homosexuality and other sins. They are no longer Christian no matter what they call themselves. For accurate numbers you need to subtract the members of non-Christian churches. The Bible tells of a great falling away from the Word as the end days approach. Is this it?
As church attendance has declined, many churches have "sold their souls to Satan" by watering down the words of the God, and leading people to believe that some "sins"are now, not really sins after all. Homosexuality and gay marriage are the ones that immediately come to mind. The words written in the Holy Bible and the word of God have no changed, and for people to believe that it is okay to practice deviant behavior, and to go against God's word, can only mean one thing...........they are going to be in for a rude awakening come Judgement Day.
So, do you really believe that come Judgement Day, St. Peter will say to you..........."Welcome, we're going to give you a pass for thinking the way you do."
If you do, just remember the words of Gomer Pyle..............."surprise, surprise, surprise."
The more you know of man's law... the more lawful you will be.
The more you know of God's law... the higher your morality will be.
Very few here willfully poach game outside of man's hunting laws... and very few here openly defile God.
God's law far surpasses man's law.
Anarchy is life with neither God's law... nor man's law.
A tremendous number of people in the world today believe Anarchy equates to enlightenment. These are the same people that throw a conniption fit if there's a missing pickle on their McDonald's McDouble.
If not going to church allows you to lose your way... your weakness is the most powerful tool that the enemy can wield.
It really troubles me reading some of these posts, this is the holiest week of the year. Satan is in those posts.
Having god in my life and going to church faithfully has made me the man I am today. This world would be a much better place if we all did, and I doubt even the non-believers would argue with that.
I don't see a declining attendance at my parish. In fact we have been full capacity (with masks) all week. Very nice to see
The government took over education in the 1960s and has promoted leftism ever since. Leftism has become a religion for many people today. We call them liberals.
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the Christian church, it's a lot worse than that. In recent years, many churches have turned their backs on the Lord, preaching homosexuality and other sins. They are no longer Christian no matter what they call themselves. For accurate numbers you need to subtract the members of non-Christian churches. The Bible tells of a great falling away from the Word as the end days approach. Is this it?
They've been saying that for 2k year. Every generation claims they live in the end days.
That's true. However, the Bible lists numerous things that must happen in the end days and we're seeing more of them in recent years than has every happened before.
I was saved in 1993 after spending several years of my adult life paying very little attention to God or what plan he may have had for me. That began to change after a divorce and an accident that nearly cost me the use of my left hand. Then one night in October after not being able to sleep I took a walk in the woods, very moonlit night. That's when I realized I needed God to help me in life. That was a Friday night. Sunday I went to church after having not went for nearly 20 years.
I've kept going since then. There were times when I was tempted to look at others and thinking of them as hypocrites as being a reason to not go then a thought came to my mind. I wasn't there just for me. I was in my early 30s then and there were several elderly people there that seemed to think of me as part of their family. I've always been drawn to older people and they to me. I saw me being there as something that brought a smile to their faces and knew if I faded away from going they would miss seeing me. That's when I began to see there is a place for all of us in a church that preaches and teaches the Bible. It's not just about me but about what I can do to fill my place and try to assure the future generations of having some place to attend church and the freedom to make a choice in life to follow God or not follow God. To not stand for that is a dis-service to them. The Bible tells us to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. Our founding fathers set this nation us so we could pursue that. I want the same for all that live beyond my life and for me a strong church is part of that. I can impact that for the good and intend to do so.
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the Christian church, it's a lot worse than that. In recent years, many churches have turned their backs on the Lord, preaching homosexuality and other sins. They are no longer Christian no matter what they call themselves. For accurate numbers you need to subtract the members of non-Christian churches. The Bible tells of a great falling away from the Word as the end days approach. Is this it?
They've been saying that for 2k year. Every generation claims they live in the end days.
That's true. However, the Bible lists numerous things that must happen in the end days and we're seeing more of them in recent years than has every happened before.
Whether we are actually in end days or not yet... does it really matter?
Would you be more gooder today if the world was ending tomorrow... or the same good and moral man you should be every day?
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
Romans 3:23 NIV ..... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Isaiah 64:6 ...... But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness [good works] is as filthy rags
Lots of religion will beat us with the OT.
I believe Christ covered all our sin.
We can't mess it up if we try.
I go to church regular but church is everywhere I AM.
Everyone is one heart beat away from their end day.
Birth pains are occuring. 20,000 earthquakes were recorded in 2000 with average intensity of 2.4.
2020 recorded 120,000 with average intensity of 4.2.
In Noah's time, it probably rained ten days before the scoffers got concerned. Of course, the bigger the fool the more time it took to get their attention.
Of course, the unbelievers will take solace in HIS having said HE would not drown the Earth again, while forgetting what HE said about the signs of HIS coming again. Fools.
Everyone is one heart beat away from their end day.
Birth pains are occuring. 20,000 earthquakes were recorded in 2000 with average intensity of 2.4.
2020 recorded 120,000 with average intensity of 4.2.
In Noah's time, it probably rained ten days before the scoffers got concerned. Of course, the bigger the fool the more time it took to get their attention.
Of course, the unbelievers will take solace in HIS having said HE would not drown the Earth again, while forgetting what HE said about the signs of HIS coming again. Fools.
jag, did some of the shorter giants take note, and head up to the high ground? in other words were there some escapees from the flood? it could be true that more than 8 or so survived?
Hmmm A declining Church attendance that correlates with a steadily declining quality of life, coincidentally occurring on the same piece of real estate ?
Hmmm A declining Church attendance that correlates with a steadily declining quality of life, coincidentally occurring on the same piece of real estate ?
Whooda Thunk?
makes sense, kinda. an empire with co-related components. the empire is in decline? the chinese are in ascendance? uh, lot's to think about.
The local pagans gather and worship, after a fashion, does that count? Or are Christians churches the only ones which can be included? I don't know to what extent the loss of community is fostered by the lack of any particular religious affiliation or the attendance of weekly meetings but I'm sure it plays a part. GD
Yes it does Richard. I just wish more people could see that.
I am more of an Old Testament kinda guy...
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him; yet I will argue my ways to His face.
- Job 13:15
The New Testament is a book of "Hope"...
The Old Testament is a book of "Discipline"...
The Testament that is being written NOW... is one of "Strength".
The Old Testament prepared the world for the coming of the Savior.
The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy.
"The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy."
Really?
The new Testament is an "Hope Filled" Obama soup sandwich with a side order of cold stale fries.
It has been manipulated and abused FOREVER.
Dig deeper...
Life is damn hard... The Old Testament was very clean on that. Israel is a miserable chunk of rock... but the Jews hold it like a jewel because the know that Hard = Truth.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
Everyone is one heart beat away from their end day.
Birth pains are occuring. 20,000 earthquakes were recorded in 2000 with average intensity of 2.4.
2020 recorded 120,000 with average intensity of 4.2.
In Noah's time, it probably rained ten days before the scoffers got concerned. Of course, the bigger the fool the more time it took to get their attention.
Of course, the unbelievers will take solace in HIS having said HE would not drown the Earth again, while forgetting what HE said about the signs of HIS coming again. Fools.
The end days require a global government and a means by which a mark can be put on a person that will enable them to buy and sell. We're running headlong into that government. Recent technology, microchips and readable tattoos, along with a move toward a cashless economy, have made a mark very possible. What we have now isn't the mark but it's almost to the point where it can be used for one.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
Actually, it's very telling. The "our way or eternal doom" thing isn't exclusive to Christians.
Years ago I asked myself if I want anything to do with a "god" that does what you described: torture for eternity despite living a good life simply because you didn't believe.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
No, not at all. The only connection required is to Jesus Christ, period. And that is the only way. Period.
This whole thing is so badly misunderstood that it's mind boggling. Religion is about making yourself acceptable to God (and will always fail). A relationship with Jesus Christ is about putting your trust in him and him only---and it is NOT religion...it is not ritual, it is not tradition, it is not any of those things. It is just too simple to understand for some.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
No, not at all. The only connection required is to Jesus Christ, period. And that is the only way. Period.
This whole thing is so badly misunderstood that it's mind boggling. Religion is about making yourself acceptable to God (and will always fail). A relationship with Jesus Christ is about putting your trust in him and him only---and it is NOT religion...it is not ritual, it is not tradition, it is not any of those things. It is just too simple to understand for some.
Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
God is a fair judge so we have to rest in that. Being a deacon in a church means nothing to God. Read your Bible and get to know Him through that. It will help you understand more that ALL men are sinners (ALL!). None are better than the others in the sight of God. It is only His righteousness and grace that sees us through.
OTOH .... We will NEVER understand all His ways nor do we have the right to shake our fist at Him and tell Him He's wrong.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
No, not at all. The only connection required is to Jesus Christ, period. And that is the only way. Period.
This whole thing is so badly misunderstood that it's mind boggling. Religion is about making yourself acceptable to God (and will always fail). A relationship with Jesus Christ is about putting your trust in him and him only---and it is NOT religion...it is not ritual, it is not tradition, it is not any of those things. It is just too simple to understand for some.
But wouldn't the Buddhist monk and the mentally ill people in my example still go to hell because they didn't know and accept Jesus (even if their non-acceptance wasn't their fault), but the sleazeball deacon goes to eternal glory because he presumably asks Jesus to forgive his sleazy ways on his deathbed?
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
God gives everyone a fair shake. There will be lots if LD adults in heaven that will have an IQ unencombered by the childhood vaccines or drugs their parents took. I can prove from the Bible that the children who left this world at no fault of their own were shown mercy beyond belief. God seems unfair to you because you haven't talken time to get to know the God of the Bible.
IF you, y-o-u want to be judged by the standard of your morality, He will when that day comes. If I got what I deserved, I would be in hell right now. He will let you choose mercy and forgiveness instead IF that's what you want. However, it's on His terms. It's described in His Word. If you don't want that, He will let you hold onto your self righteousness too. It's all a matter of your choice. Are you as righteous as Jesus?
"As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.... For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." 6:23
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
The question is, what is good enough? How good do you have to be to get into heaven? The answer is in the Bible - you have to be perfect, sinless. Since no man has ever been sinless, heaven would be empty. So, Jesus took the penalty for us. He absorbed all of our sins and paid the price that would have been ours to pay, giving us a way to salvation. His only rule is that we have to believe in him. It's that simple.
The question is, what is good enough? How good do you have to be to get into heaven? The answer is in the Bible - you have to be perfect, sinless. Since no man has ever been sinless, heaven would be empty. So, Jesus took the penalty for us. He absorbed all of our sins and paid the price that would have been ours to pay, giving us a way to salvation. His only rule is that we have to believe in him. It's that simple.
The question is, what is good enough? How good do you have to be to get into heaven? The answer is in the Bible - you have to be perfect, sinless. Since no man has ever been sinless, heaven would be empty. So, Jesus took the penalty for us. He absorbed all of our sins and paid the price that would have been ours to pay, giving us a way to salvation. His only rule is that we have to believe in him. It's that simple.
No, not at all. The only connection required is to Jesus Christ, period. And that is the only way. Period.
This whole thing is so badly misunderstood that it's mind boggling. Religion is about making yourself acceptable to God (and will always fail). A relationship with Jesus Christ is about putting your trust in him and him only---and it is NOT religion...it is not ritual, it is not tradition, it is not any of those things. It is just too simple to understand for some.
But wouldn't the Buddhist monk and the mentally ill people in my example still go to hell because they didn't know and accept Jesus (even if their non-acceptance wasn't their fault), but the sleazeball deacon goes to eternal glory because he presumably asks Jesus to forgive his sleazy ways on his deathbed?
Many things I do not know, nor does anyone else.
What happens at the moment of death? Does time stand still for those dying out of grace through "no fault of their own," and are they given an opportunity to accept? I have no idea. Maybe. Or, an argument could be made that God endows us with a certain portion of soul essence that he already knows something about, which is how and why are born and grow up in a certain part of the world. There are all kinds of ways I can imagine it, but none of my imaginings matter. All I know is that I believe God is just and things will be as they should.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
God gives everyone a fair shake. There will be lots if LD adults in heaven that will have an IQ unencombered by the childhood vaccines or drugs their parents took. I can prove from the Bible that the children who left this world at no fault of their own were shown mercy beyond belief. God seems unfair to you because you haven't talken time to get to know the God of the Bible.
IF you, y-o-u want to be judged by the standard of your morality, He will when that day comes. If I got what I deserved, I would be in hell right now. He will let you choose mercy and forgiveness instead IF that's what you want. However, it's on His terms. It's described in His Word. If you don't want that, He will let you hold onto your self righteousness too. It's all a matter of your choice. Are you as righteous as Jesus?
"As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.... For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." 6:23
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
A long time ago I dropped all the Churches that were members of the World Council of Churches, knocking out all the large denominations. Then I dropped all the churches that wanted to see my tax returns, which knocked out a number of independent, born-again churches. Then I knocked out all the churches that were boring and that completed my research on church attendance. I get one day a week off, Sunday, and I can't see any reason to give up my shooting hobby, doing chores around the house, reloading, casting bullets. fishing, restoring the house for anything I've found in churches. .I'm pretty much a loner and have not found many of the folks that I've met through religion that I'd want to spend much time with.
One of my kids works with retards. My usual greeting to them is "How are the saints doing today?"
Totally Biblical, totally Christian theology. Most of those clients never stepped foot in Church, never baptized and never will. But don't believe that that will work for you. I'm pretty sure that everyone here will be held to a higher standard. The first Great Commandment is to love God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole soul. You cannot put the cart before the horse like the Babylonians tried when they built their tower without regard for God, putting the 2nd before the first or ignoring it entirely.
Most people reject The Church because of what they *think* it is, not because of what it really is.
I am not sure a declining church attendance equals anything but a declining church income.
And that, folks, is the best answer yet.
This might be a good place to differentiate between being a believer in Christ and attending a church regularly. Doing one does not necessarily mean doing the other.
Personally, I see "organized religion" as a negative. Just as America was given "a republic, if you can keep it" we were given the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Constitution and the New Testament can both be read as they are in their originality, but it seems that mankind will always corrupt and pervert anything it ever touches. I blame the decline of organized religion on organized religion and those who choose to capitalize upon it. And this is the very reason that NONE can ever be good enough on their own merit to be in the presence of God. The path is narrow and we've all heard his name.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
Even I, who was brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition, an altar boy, and schooled by them for nearly 12 years, learned that somewhere along the line.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
Even I, who was brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition, an altar boy, and schooled by them for nearly 12 years, learned that somewhere along the line
We are all called to worship at the alter. The alter is not at your house.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
You're right. The "Church" is not a building but the NT is full of teaching for the gathering of Christians together. Pastors, elders, teachers are all a part of church organization of groups of people.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
Even I, who was brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition, an altar boy, and schooled by them for nearly 12 years, learned that somewhere along the line
We are all called to worship at the alter. The alter is not at your house.
The whole world, made by the Creator, is my altar.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
The whole world, made by the Creator, is my altar.
And I need no human telling me otherwise.
I'm not telling you, Christ is telling you.
Of course, you believe the version you're reading was translated, after being written centuries after his life, is the correct one in every nuance?
I'm not here to argue the point with you. I had an event in my life many years ago that changed my life dramatically when I called out to the Creator. Many would call it a miracle. I have no need to go elsewhere for confirmation or reinforcement of my "saving" .
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper.
That may be catholic doctrine, but it is a misstatement of fact.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
Big +1.
I grew up going 3 times a week.
Last time I was in a church was for my grandmother's funeral several years ago. Prior to that was my dad's funeral, 16 years ago.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
Very interesting thread, and I only have few comments to make.
- Isn't freedom of religion great? I can believe what and how I want. If someone does not like it, they can stuff it. - I too have lost any desire to part of man's organized religion. Had a couple of experiences growing up that turned me off. Things that have occurred since, have only validated that decision. Not limited too, but for example, Priests abusing children.
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
I know, it burns you like acid. You should discuss it with Christ.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
I know, it burns you like acid. You should discuss it with Christ.
Doesn't burn me at all. I made a decision at 18 that I didn't need other humans running interference between me and the way I choose to worship. I've seen nothing showing me that was a poor choice Churches are nothing but gathering locations for fallible humans, most of whom I have no desire to be around. I can find my God easily enough in the quiet, wild places where I hike, run, etc I feel sorry that you need something created by man to feel closer to God.
Christianity is inherently a community affair with the Body of Christ gathering to worship Christ and participate in the sacrament of The Lord's Supper. You cannot do that out in the World.
Another take on the subject is that if you, and millions like you, hadn't left The Church, it wouldn't be in the poor shape it is now.
If you, and those like you, didn't act like this in Church millions wouldn't have left. Maybe then it wouldn't be in the poor shape it's in.
I know, it burns you like acid. You should discuss it with Christ.
Doesn't burn me at all. I made a decision at 18 that I didn't need other humans running interference between me and the way I choose to worship. I've seen nothing showing me that was a poor choice Churches are nothing but gathering locations for fallible humans, most of whom I have no desire to be around. I can find my God easily enough in the quiet, wild places where I hike, run, etc I feel sorry that you need something created by man to feel closer to God.
Declining membership means less money, and the power that goes with it.
Originally Posted by Jim1611
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
Isn't freedom of religion great? My beliefs and actions are mine. Truly no one's business how or why. Isn't freedom of religion great. I do not broadcast my actions, or brag about them as many do. Isn't freedom of religion great? To me being a good person is not a dick measuring holier than thou contest.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I live near a town of less than 2000 people, men, women and children. I bet there are at least 15 different churches there. When I attended High School in the early 1960's there was maybe 4 churches, and about 500 more people in town. All of these split off because of hurt feelings along the way. Now I never attended any of those churches past or present except for funerals, but I did see the infighting in the churches that I did attend. Like I said I lost all faith in churches. If you like them OK, but they don't seem to be for me. miles
If you can't even give God 1 hour a week, why would you want to spend eternity in worship & praise?
Who are you the other 167 hours of the week?
Someone who should be going to mass daily, growing further, faster in devotion.
If you think that the performance of ritual and consumption of dogma is going to enhance your standing with the Creator of the Universe...I have no words for you.
"Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity."
I believe that those who have never heard the Word, little babies, aboriginals in deep remote areas as examples are probably given a pass. If the Lord God is truly just, He could do nothing less. Paul B.
"Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity."
I believe that those who have never heard the Word, little babies, aboriginals in deep remote areas as examples are probably given a pass. If the Lord God is truly just, He could do nothing less. Paul B.
Yeah, see, that's not what the bible says.
And if you get to just pick, choose, and add stuff, well, it sure isn't an infallible source.....
Yes it does Richard. I just wish more people could see that.
I am more of an Old Testament kinda guy...
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him; yet I will argue my ways to His face.
- Job 13:15
The New Testament is a book of "Hope"...
The Old Testament is a book of "Discipline"...
The Testament that is being written NOW... is one of "Strength".
The Old Testament prepared the world for the coming of the Savior.
The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy.
"The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy."
Really?
The new Testament is an "Hope Filled" Obama soup sandwich with a side order of cold stale fries.
It has been manipulated and abused FOREVER.
Dig deeper...
Life is damn hard... The Old Testament was very clean on that. Israel is a miserable chunk of rock... but the Jews hold it like a jewel because the know that Hard = Truth.
Prepare Now... extremely hard schist is coming.
If you follow the Old Testament and ignore the New Testament, then I guess you're not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ and I guess that you don't like his teachings.
If you can't even give God 1 hour a week, why would you want to spend eternity in worship & praise?
Who are you the other 167 hours of the week?
Someone who should be going to mass daily, growing further, faster in devotion.
If you think that the performance of ritual and consumption of dogma is going to enhance your standing with the Creator of the Universe...I have no words for you.
How do you fulfill the 1st Great Commandment?
It's not enhancing my standing with God, it's enhancing God's standing with ME.
Yes it does Richard. I just wish more people could see that.
I am more of an Old Testament kinda guy...
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him; yet I will argue my ways to His face.
- Job 13:15
The New Testament is a book of "Hope"...
The Old Testament is a book of "Discipline"...
The Testament that is being written NOW... is one of "Strength".
The Old Testament prepared the world for the coming of the Savior.
The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy.
"The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy."
Really?
The new Testament is an "Hope Filled" Obama soup sandwich with a side order of cold stale fries.
It has been manipulated and abused FOREVER.
Dig deeper...
Life is damn hard... The Old Testament was very clean on that. Israel is a miserable chunk of rock... but the Jews hold it like a jewel because the know that Hard = Truth.
Prepare Now... extremely hard schist is coming.
If you follow the Old Testament and ignore the New Testament, then I guess you're not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ and I guess that you don't like his teachings.
Oh no... you worship a different God than me...
Oh me... oh my... what shall we ever do...
Maybe start a war... like a hundred times before.
Let's burn it all down... because of what... remind me again.
Yes it does Richard. I just wish more people could see that.
I am more of an Old Testament kinda guy...
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him; yet I will argue my ways to His face.
- Job 13:15
The New Testament is a book of "Hope"...
The Old Testament is a book of "Discipline"...
The Testament that is being written NOW... is one of "Strength".
The Old Testament prepared the world for the coming of the Savior.
The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy.
"The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy."
Really?
The new Testament is an "Hope Filled" Obama soup sandwich with a side order of cold stale fries.
It has been manipulated and abused FOREVER.
Dig deeper...
Life is damn hard... The Old Testament was very clean on that. Israel is a miserable chunk of rock... but the Jews hold it like a jewel because the know that Hard = Truth.
Prepare Now... extremely hard schist is coming.
If you follow the Old Testament and ignore the New Testament, then I guess you're not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ and I guess that you don't like his teachings.
Oh no... you worship a different God than me...
Oh me... oh my... what shall we ever do...
Maybe start a war... like a hundred times before.
Let's burn it all down... because of what... remind me again.
Oh that's right... I quoted Job... and not John...
My church is high in the mountains, and other wild country. And it doesn’t have a ceiling. I go all the time.I spent over 4 hours in church today. And covered over 10 miles afoot. Great sermon...!
To many people think they can sin and be an azzz all week long then if they go to church and say a prayer the slate is wiped clean and they can start all over again. I have never met a more aloof group of people than people who regularly attend the same church. It’s like their church is the only church and you are either in, or you are out. Not my style. Living the golden rule is a good life. Going to church doesn’t mean diddly.
A caring god would NEVER EVER permit priests and other religious leaders to molest innocent children. Nor allow their superiors to allow it to continue.
What Does Declining Church Attendance Mean for Our Society?
That is an easy question to answer. Just watch the news...
But one can point to many periods of time throughout history where attendance was close to 100% and conditions were oppressive and horrible.
Correlation isn't causation.
When I read accounts of what the early settlers put up with in regards to the clergy it astounds me. Especially given what they set out to escape in England.
No wonder the best and brightest that are handed down as heros didn't "fit". Boone, Kenton, etc.
No different than government. Small it fulfills it's mission. The bigger it gets the more corrupt and evil it becomes.
Yes it does Richard. I just wish more people could see that.
I am more of an Old Testament kinda guy...
Though He slay me, I will hope in Him; yet I will argue my ways to His face.
- Job 13:15
The New Testament is a book of "Hope"...
The Old Testament is a book of "Discipline"...
The Testament that is being written NOW... is one of "Strength".
The Old Testament prepared the world for the coming of the Savior.
The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy.
"The New Testament fulfilled that prophecy."
Really?
The new Testament is an "Hope Filled" Obama soup sandwich with a side order of cold stale fries.
It has been manipulated and abused FOREVER.
Dig deeper...
Life is damn hard... The Old Testament was very clean on that. Israel is a miserable chunk of rock... but the Jews hold it like a jewel because the know that Hard = Truth.
Prepare Now... extremely hard schist is coming.
If you follow the Old Testament and ignore the New Testament, then I guess you're not a Christian. A Christian is a follower of Christ and I guess that you don't like his teachings.
Oh no... you worship a different God than me...
Oh me... oh my... what shall we ever do...
Maybe start a war... like a hundred times before.
Let's burn it all down... because of what... remind me again.
Oh that's right... I quoted Job... and not John...
Surely someone must die...
You obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
Lots of people refuse to believe in God because they simply don't like the way He is running things. "I just can't believe in a god that would allow suffering!".... "I won't believe in a god that would send anyone to hell!"... "I refuse to believe in such an arbitrary god!".... "I won't worship a god that says we should do this, and we shouldn't do that!".... It seems they would prefer a god of their own making. A god that does what they tell him to... rather than the other way around.
"Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity."
I believe that those who have never heard the Word, little babies, aboriginals in deep remote areas as examples are probably given a pass. If the Lord God is truly just, He could do nothing less. Paul B.
Yeah, see, that's not what the bible says.
And if you get to just pick, choose, and add stuff, well, it sure isn't an infallible source.....
You are dead wrong about that. All of us are held accountable by God for what light we have on his word. How can an infant or very young child know and make a choice as to whether to follow God or not. They can't. Same for some remote tribe too. There are few left that haven't heard but when it comes to the very young, yes they do get a pass and if they die before they reach an age of accountability they go to Heaven.
Lots of people refuse to believe in God because they simply don't like the way He is running things. "I just can't believe in a god that would allow suffering!".... "I won't believe in a god that would send anyone to hell!"... "I refuse to believe in such an arbitrary god!".... "I won't worship a god that says we should do this, and we shouldn't do that!".... It seems they would prefer a god of their own making. A god that does what they tell him to... rather than the other way around.
You are so right. You have to see the "big picture".........most people don't. They see and believe in what is convenient for them. That is why it is so important to read the Bible, go to church and participate in study and discussions of the word of God, and then maybe you just might begin to understand what God is about, and why He wants to believe in Him.
There was a time in my life when I turned my back on going to church, and tried telling myself that I didn't need to go, and could worship God in my own way. Of course, I can't speak for everyone, and am not going to pass judgement on them, but I finally figured out that by attending church I became much closer to God, and that I needed the fellowship and support of fellow Christians.
Yes, you can worship God any time or any place, it doesn't have to be on Sunday or inside a church. Yes, there are times when we get mad at certain people who are pretending to be Christians, and we decide that we don't want to be a part of something they're a part of, specifically a church. But, we shouldn't let those people dictate our relationship with God, or to determine whether or not we attend a church. Our relationship with Him is between the two of us, and no one else.
"Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity."
I believe that those who have never heard the Word, little babies, aboriginals in deep remote areas as examples are probably given a pass. If the Lord God is truly just, He could do nothing less. Paul B.
Yeah, see, that's not what the bible says.
And if you get to just pick, choose, and add stuff, well, it sure isn't an infallible source.....
You are dead wrong about that. All of us are held accountable by God for what light we have on his word. How can an infant or very young child know and make a choice as to whether to follow God or not. They can't. Same for some remote tribe too. There are few left that haven't heard but when it comes to the very young, yes they do get a pass and if they die before they reach an age of accountability they go to Heaven.
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. A Buddhist monk who has done no harm to anyone or anything in his lifetime, and who has lived a virtuous life, goes to eternal torment upon death, but a sleazeball small-town politician or thieving businessman who has screwed people over all of his adult life gets to go to heaven, just because he was a deacon in church for the connections it gave him?
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
God gives everyone a fair shake. There will be lots if LD adults in heaven that will have an IQ unencombered by the childhood vaccines or drugs their parents took. I can prove from the Bible that the children who left this world at no fault of their own were shown mercy beyond belief. God seems unfair to you because you haven't talken time to get to know the God of the Bible.
IF you, y-o-u want to be judged by the standard of your morality, He will when that day comes. If I got what I deserved, I would be in hell right now. He will let you choose mercy and forgiveness instead IF that's what you want. However, it's on His terms. It's described in His Word. If you don't want that, He will let you hold onto your self righteousness too. It's all a matter of your choice. Are you as righteous as Jesus?
"As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one.... For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." 6:23
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Ask the Almighty God of the Bible. Then read what I wrote last night again. I wasn't very clear since I was tired. Please watch the link as well. I have been raised Catholic, led into a Buddhist practice, Hinduism and dabbled in Taoism in my youth. They all are based upon a most grave sin called Idolatry or idol worship. The Bible states,
"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils."
The Buddhist gods are real beings, however they are false gods. They receive worship that is only due to the true God. All of them are evil wicked spirit beings called angels, the fallen ones. Jesus called those gods, devils and evil spirits because they are. He never allowed them to continue harming those who were possessed by them. He would command them with same authority of God Almighty that Jesus is. They were harmful and deceptive to those who served them and associated with them. Jesus was constantly casting them out during his ministry.
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
I don't attend a church. Once I heard a church was having difficulty so I started sending money anonymously. A man came to my company looking for a job. He happened to be the son of the pastor of above church. I did not mention I was helping his church. He told his dad about me, the religious fantastic who doesn't go to church.
This ol' boy came to visit. He condemned me for not giving to God's work. I chuckled but said nothing. The building does not make one a Christian.
Romans 7:9 If you read that verse & the surrounding verses you'll find what people are using as the age of accountability. The actual term age of accountability is not found in the Bible to my knowledge.
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
I don't attend a church. Once I heard a church was having difficulty so I started sending money anonymously. A man came to my company looking for a job. He happened to be the son of the pastor of above church. I did not mention I was helping his church. He told his dad about me, the religious fantastic who doesn't go to church.
This ol' boy came to visit. He condemned me for not giving to God's work. I chuckled but said nothing. The building does not make one a Christian.
Had this pastor have been true to God he'd have never treated you that way. To start a conversation with someone you know nothing about and assume they don't tithe in some form shows me they need to get right with God. He also cares little for the souls of any of us. Rarely do we hear a word in our church about giving. I mean maybe once every several years. Giving should always come from the heart, never by being told to do so. As you know.
If one understands that the nature of fallen man (ALL fallen men) is sinfulness, unrighteousness, and unworthiness, then questions like "what about the remote person who has never heard the Gospel?", and "what about the 'innocent' child?", and "what about the righteous Buddhist?" already have their answer.
For no one is righteous. No, not one. None seeketh after God.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
How can a child, retarded person or completely ignorant know anything about sin and whether or not they are committing sin? Babies are born with the original sin of Adam but what can they know or do about it? How are they to choose to ask God to forgive them of this? How can they even have willfully sinned and been aware of it? The only sin they have is what they inherited because they are human and until their minds can understand that they can't be to blame.
Ezekiel 28:15
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
An infant is born perfect in it's ways and at some point is accountable to God for the sins they may commit. So before that day comes that person is free from sin of their own making. God does not ask us to give an account for the sins of our parents or others. To expect an infant to know what it means to sin is the same as expecting them to know what breaking any law it.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
How can a child, retarded person or completely ignorant know anything about sin and whether or not they are committing sin? Babies are born with the original sin of Adam but what can they know or do about it? How are they to choose to ask God to forgive them of this? How can they even have willfully sinned and been aware of it? The only sin they have is what they inherited because they are human and until their minds can understand that they can't be to blame.
Ezekiel 28:15
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
An infant is born perfect in it's ways and at some point is accountable to God for the sins they may commit. So before that day comes that person is free from sin of their own making. God does not ask us to give an account for the sins of our parents or others. To expect an infant to know what it means to sin is the same as expecting them to know what breaking any law it. [/quote] 👍
It’s easy for some to love their religion more than they do the people for whom the religion was given. And then some can even end up hurting people with the religion that was given for people, and then wonder why people don’t want to get involved with their religion. Some people give up on religion, or give up on church, because they ran into some church people who seemed to love their church, and love their religion, more than they loved them...!
The answer is in the Bible - you have to be perfect, sinless. Since no man has ever been sinless,.
Doesnt Bible tell you Adam was created without sin?
Originally Posted by auk1124
That part of Christian doctrine troubles me. ..
What about mentally ill people who, through no fault of their own, can't attend church or understand it? Schizophrenics, agoraphobics, people with social anxiety disorders, people with severe learning disabilities. They are tossed into the lake of fire because they were unlucky enough to have malfunctioning brains?
It all seems very unfair and arbitrary.
Strong resemblance to the Nazi state euthanasia program, coz they only wanted fit and productive types for the Reich.
I was raised in a very legalistic fundamentalist church where they had all sorts of rules that didn’t come from the Bible BUT I also had a group of deeply gracious, loving, and hospitable group around me who represented Christianity well. A particular individual who was legalistic, pompous, and off-putting was a pastor; another who was particularly gracious and kind was also a minister.
That is, for me people are people no matter where I go. For me and my household the observances and rites of collective worship... and that includes putting up with the @$$holes (I know you’ll all be dumbfounded, but at times that includes me) are part and parcel to being in the “called out community” (ecclesia in Greek translated church in NT) and all are used by God to form us into the image His Son.
I’ve got men around me who correct me and adults who take my kids aside and reinforce the teachings of the community so I’m not alone in parenting. Women come around my wife and help her when she has difficulties. The men with whom I have deer camp are mostly brothers from my congregation; some are from other congregations and a couple aren’t from any.
Church is the place that God has ordained that we as believers sharpen one another. That means putting up with crap. I put up with others’ and they mine.
Just like in the rest of life I get returns commensurate with the investment. As long as I keep in perspective that my $h!t stinks just as much as everyone else’s I’m ok.
Jesus came to establish the church as it was always intended. During his time the enemy of his and the church were the Pharisees. We still see them in some form today. Many of you have posted bad experiences with church people and it's the same as what Christ confronted many times. It's no reason to throw the church out the window though. Was it outrageous for the Catholic church to abuse children. Yes x10000 but they are not following the path Christ set forth. Is it wrong for clergy of any sort to do as they please with no regard to God's word or by allowing themselves to be a stumbling block to fellow man. Yes!
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
That part of keeping yourself unspotted form the world is key, so is the rest but if we all approach our lives in a way that we don't turn anyone away from God the world is better off. That's not to say some won't be offended but it's because they made choices and decisions we can't help. The true church is good and useful. The church of the Pharisees is not. Both exist today. In fact Jesus cautioned his disciples to be wary of them, the Pharisees. He never condemned gathering together to worship though. Everyone can have a role to fill in this if they will.
Where I grew up everyone went to church on Sunday and I mean everyone. Then the men would hit the clubs and get hammered drunk. The woman would collect at different homes and exchange gossip and lies about most any other woman who were not part of their group. Eventually the men would drive home and most ended up smacking around their wives. But by God they all claimed they were faithful Christians. The priests usually stayed at church diddling alter boys till they had enough then they would hit a bar or two to talk with their clan. They would do this long enough until someone finally invited them home for dinner.
The Pharisees thought it was by following legalistic rules and regulations and rituals. They had filthy hearts, but hey...at least they had clean hands, and clean cups. They couldn’t help support their aging parents financially because, hey...their money was ‘dedicated to God’ (even though the Pharisees could continue to use it themselves).
Others, like Jesus, think that ‘everything’ in the Law and the Prophets is covered by loving God and loving others. Period. Not 600 and something legalistic rules and regulations and rituals. And then He stepped it up...a “new command” was given by Him...”Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” It’s the One Commandment; not 600 and something, not even 10...One.
Love for God is demonstrated, authenticated, and validated by one’s love for others. Others that God also loves, others that Jesus also died for.
Our society gets more Godless every day. I thought it was rather obvious by the that the majority of folks aren't interested in God or Christianity. America has a heart problem, a human condition problem.
Hey antlers, that is one Beautiful church you have there. Did it cost the parishioners much to build? I bet anyone can attend too.
True and kind words my friend. The sermon was titled “O Lord, how manifold are thy works!” Didn’t cost the parishioners a dime to build, and ALL are welcome to attend.
The question is why make Adam- Eve so naive and also put the crafty devil there to trick them...doesn't seem like a loving act.
Would you let your naive children play in brush where you put a rattlesnake ?
Do you think God was surprised by man’s sin? He had the antidote to the snake’s poison. It’s still available to you, but your participation is required. Here’s hoping you accept.
I was raised in a very legalistic fundamentalist church where they had all sorts of rules that didn’t come from the Bible BUT I also had a group of deeply gracious, loving, and hospitable group around me who represented Christianity well. A particular individual who was legalistic, pompous, and off-putting was a pastor; another who was particularly gracious and kind was also a minister.
That is, for me people are people no matter where I go. For me and my household the observances and rites of collective worship... and that includes putting up with the @$$holes (I know you’ll all be dumbfounded, but at times that includes me) are part and parcel to being in the “called out community” (ecclesia in Greek translated church in NT) and all are used by God to form us into the image His Son.
I’ve got men around me who correct me and adults who take my kids aside and reinforce the teachings of the community so I’m not alone in parenting. Women come around my wife and help her when she has difficulties. The men with whom I have deer camp are mostly brothers from my congregation; some are from other congregations and a couple aren’t from any.
Church is the place that God has ordained that we as believers sharpen one another. That means putting up with crap. I put up with others’ and they mine.
Just like in the rest of life I get returns commensurate with the investment. As long as I keep in perspective that my $h!t stinks just as much as everyone else’s I’m ok.
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
I don't attend a church. Once I heard a church was having difficulty so I started sending money anonymously. A man came to my company looking for a job. He happened to be the son of the pastor of above church. I did not mention I was helping his church. He told his dad about me, the religious fantastic who doesn't go to church.
This ol' boy came to visit. He condemned me for not giving to God's work. I chuckled but said nothing. The building does not make one a Christian.
Good post.
In my old age I seem to remember something about "wherever two or more of you are gathered in God's name."
OTOH if people didn't go to church, which has Sunday schools, where would the kids learn about the Bible to begin with?
The question is why make Adam- Eve so naive and also put the crafty devil there to trick them...doesn't seem like a loving act.
Would you let your naive children play in brush where you put a rattlesnake ?
Do you think God was surprised by man’s sin? He had the antidote to the snake’s poison. It’s still available to you, but your participation is required. Here’s hoping you accept.
OK, so I take it you would let your kids play where you put a rattlesnake... coz you got vials of antivenin on hand...thanks for sharing your stupid - explains much about your 'faith'..LoL.
I doubt God tailored his plan to what I would do under some scenario you imagined. Believe or not, you certainly are free to choose. Why the insults? Are you just angry or are you serving another master?
Hey antlers, that is one Beautiful church you have there. Did it cost the parishioners much to build? I bet anyone can attend too.
True and kind words my friend. The sermon was titled “O Lord, how manifold are thy works!” Didn’t cost the parishioners a dime to build, and ALL are welcome to attend.
Under a full moon one night in October 1993 while taking a walk in the woods was when God reached my soul. That was after not being in church for many years. Someday though I won't be able to take those walks and you won't either my friend. It might be nice to go to church some then. God can be anywhere when He is welcome. That place where I got saved is on property I now own and live on. Every time I am near there I remember that night. Sometimes I crave solitude and other times I like being around some of the folks in my church. Notice I said "some". As Grandpa used to say "some people are just hard to like". I do try though and he did too.
You obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
So obvious...
Spin up some more hatred and lies... your God will be super duper proud of false statements made in His name.
You obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
So obvious...
Spin up some more hatred and lies... your God will be super duper proud of false statements made in His name.
You know absolutely nothing about me and my God.
What hatred and lies? If you ignore the New Testament, that doesn't make you a Christian, it makes you a Jew.
You obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
So obvious...
Spin up some more hatred and lies... your God will be super duper proud of false statements made in His name.
You know absolutely nothing about me and my God.
What hatred and lies? If you ignore the New Testament, that doesn't make you a Christian, it makes you a Jew.
[ou obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
You obviously don't know what Scripture says. They worship the creation rather than the Creator.
"Yeah, so, regardless of how you live, if you never even knew about Jesus, let alone "believed" in him, torture for eternity."
I believe that those who have never heard the Word, little babies, aboriginals in deep remote areas as examples are probably given a pass. If the Lord God is truly just, He could do nothing less. Paul B.
Yeah, see, that's not what the bible says.
And if you get to just pick, choose, and add stuff, well, it sure isn't an infallible source.....
You are dead wrong about that. All of us are held accountable by God for what light we have on his word. How can an infant or very young child know and make a choice as to whether to follow God or not. They can't. Same for some remote tribe too. There are few left that haven't heard but when it comes to the very young, yes they do get a pass and if they die before they reach an age of accountability they go to Heaven.
Cite chapter and verse please
If you are serious I wrote an essay addressing youth. Let me know and I will PM or post it.
[ou obviously don't know that the root of Christian is Christ. It's because of people like you that I don't have much use for organized religions. That's okay. I'm going out on a hike to worship God's creation.
You obviously don't know what Scripture says. They worship the creation rather than the Creator.
You obviously didn't read what I was responding to. The person I was responding to said that they didn't pay much attention to the NT, because they much preferred the OT. My point was that if you mostly ignore what Christ taught, you aren't a Christian.
If entering into a building that is dedicated to the worship and teaching of God isn't for you that's your business but there's a few things I do question. How many missionaries have you supported? How do you expect the lost sinner that has not teaching in regard to the Bible to hear the truth if you've chosen to hide your light under a basket? How are we going to support the ongoing outreach through speaking, writing or otherwise? Do you tithe? There may be other questions I'm not arguing about church attendance but if everyone quit going who is carrying the torch? Are you?
I also want it to be known that my post isn't a defense of the Catholic church as some here have had a problem with. As far as I'm concerned they are not a Bible based doctrine and it's no wonder they have allowed what they have.
I don't attend a church. Once I heard a church was having difficulty so I started sending money anonymously. A man came to my company looking for a job. He happened to be the son of the pastor of above church. I did not mention I was helping his church. He told his dad about me, the religious fantastic who doesn't go to church.
This ol' boy came to visit. He condemned me for not giving to God's work. I chuckled but said nothing. The building does not make one a Christian.
Good post.
In my old age I seem to remember something about "wherever two or more of you are gathered in God's name."
OTOH if people didn't go to church, which has Sunday schools, where would the kids learn about the Bible to begin with?
The House of Israel grew mighty after the tribe of Judah left them and became their own nation. While the Tribe of Judah was captured by Babylon, the Roman Empire, Israel waxed strong and took over many nations of heathens. They failed under King Jeroboam and took up the heathen acts of those they conquered though the Bible said they remembered GOD.
The satanic practices they began partaking in led to their downfall as will befall us if we continue down satans road. Promiscuity, abortion, then the killing of their on kids in religious rites and then the eating of them. That is the ultimate slap in Gods face. We have progressed through killing our kids through abortion to murder by putting some aside to die who were born alive.
Then, there are those who now partake of dead children as pizza and adrenochrome.
When the nation of Israel began to fail, King Jeroboam asked God what he could do. God told him it was too late. Their fate was sealed and they were defeated by the Assyrians and taken captive.
Interestingly, didnt the empires of the Mayan, Aztecs and others follow those satanic rituals to destruction, making sacrifices to their Sun gods, eating the hearts, etc.
I lost faith in churches a long time ago. That does not equate to losing faith in the gospels miles
Totally unbiblical. Jesus and the Apostles faithfully attended the Temple & synagogue until they couldn't. Then they worked to set up their own churches.
I could not disagree more strongly. "The Church" is not a physical structure, nor is it something organized by man.
Even I, who was brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition, an altar boy, and schooled by them for nearly 12 years, learned that somewhere along the line
We are all called to worship at the alter. The alter is not at your house.
If there’s an all powerful, omnipotent God that would allow innocent children to be raped, tortured, murdered etc.. Someone’s going to have to come up with a real good reason why I should blindly follow the teachings of such flawed ideology. I’m more apt to believe the first of the four noble truths of Buddhism Existence is suffering. At least it’s undeniably the truth.
That’s a great verse Wabi, but the protection that’s promised? What about the innocent, the devout and born again that are murdered, tortured, raped etc? If Psalms 23 were true, no Christians/believers would ever have violence visited upon them, and we all know that’s simply not the reality.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
I think the argument is that no one is innocent, original sin and all that.
An infant shouldn’t be held liable for a bitch eating an apple after talking to a snake.
Jack an infant is not held liable for anything. They just get to grow up in a fallen world. It's our job to give them something better if we can or teach them how to deal with all of it.
That’s a great verse Wabi, but the protection that’s promised? What about the innocent, the devout and born again that are murdered, tortured, raped etc? If Psalms 23 were true, no Christians/believers would ever have violence visited upon them, and we all know that’s simply not the reality.
This is a good question and there are lots of answers but I’d say this.
Today we are fortunate to live in an unprecedented time of peace & prosperity but historically people have suffered greatly enough that the promise of heavenly rest has offered hope.
For example Stephen, the Church’s first recorded martyr, after preaching an amazing sermon to the murderous Pharisees in Acts 6. They were so moved that he is recorded as having said that he saw Christ seated at the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death. Christ seated position meant His work was done; His position at God’s right hand meant that His work had pleased the Father. That was work Stephen knew to have been on his behalf, and it gave him hope as he died a brutal and heinous death at the hands of evil men.
My life is so unbelievably amazing today I am tempted to think this is as good as it will get. I have to remember to be grateful for this time and prepare my kids for a time when this won’t be the case. I hope they’ll remember that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of the reality of things not seen.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
Exactly, these values are not the exclusive domain of Christianity and pretending they are does a major disservice toward their achievement.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
From what objective source are “common sense” (which I believe you and I would agree is NOT common), decency, civility, and reality derived?
Evolution and chance can explain where things came from but they can’t explain how things ought to be. From what source do we derive the deep and abiding sense of what is right, good, and beautiful?
These are questions I asked myself as I came to faith. Material science was insufficient to the task.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
I didn't say you were. It's being done all around us though. Jack all these traits you listed are taught in the Bible as being useful and good. The people that want to preserve these are true christians. The people that want to destroy them are in bed with the devil himself. Just look at every wicked thing we face as a nation. Every last item is soundly condemned by the Bible. So yes God is a part of it. God it the source of goodness and satan is the source of evil. Every one of us will be influenced by one or the other.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
From what objective source are “common sense” (which I believe you and I would agree is NOT common), decency, civility, and reality derived?
Evolution and chance can explain where things came from but they can’t explain how things ought to be. From what source do we derive the deep and abiding sense of what is right, good, and beautiful?
These are questions I asked myself as I came to faith. Material science was insufficient to the task.
Again just my .02...
Multiple other religions teach the same basic tenets that non believers like me simply call civility and decency. It’s not exclusive to Christianity. Some of these religions predate Christianity by a millennium. Way too many contradictions within the teachings of Christ for me to go all in for blind faith.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
From what objective source are “common sense” (which I believe you and I would agree is NOT common), decency, civility, and reality derived?
Evolution and chance can explain where things came from but they can’t explain how things ought to be. From what source do we derive the deep and abiding sense of what is right, good, and beautiful?
These are questions I asked myself as I came to faith. Material science was insufficient to the task.
Again just my .02...
efw,
Why do these values need a source? Would it not be enough that they are shared?
Multiple other religions teach the same basic tenets that non believers like me simply call civility and decency. It’s not exclusive to Christianity. Some of these religions predate Christianity by a millennium. Way too many contradictions within the teachings of Christ for me to go all in for blind faith.
Fair enough.
Even so, the questions in my post are worth asking are they not? I am genuinely not trying to “score points” here in some debate. From my perspective there couldn’t be a more important set of questions than those.
You and Kingston are absolutely right; those values are seen in civilizations the world over. But why? From where did they originate? Is there a coherent belief system available that accounts for that?
You’re absolutely free to come to any conclusions you like I’m not here to argue with you. But the questions seem to me to be some well worth investigating.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
From what objective source are “common sense” (which I believe you and I would agree is NOT common), decency, civility, and reality derived?
Evolution and chance can explain where things came from but they can’t explain how things ought to be. From what source do we derive the deep and abiding sense of what is right, good, and beautiful?
These are questions I asked myself as I came to faith. Material science was insufficient to the task.
Again just my .02...
efw,
Why do these values need a source? Would it not be enough that they are shared?
The values exist outside of faith, and there's bucketloads of examples where faith has often contravinened them - it's called history. If anybody thinks all non-believers lack morals because they don't share theit belief system, the need to right royally fugg themselves with a pineapple.
The values exist outside of faith, and there's bucketloads of examples where faith has often contravinened them
I could not agree more!
They exist in reality but from what source?
The fact that you and I recognize the grave offense of people of faith (or not) having violated them shows they’re as real as laws of nature like gravity.
So where did they come from to carry such near-universal weight in the hearts and minds of men?
And for the record I have never and never will say that non-believers don’t observe these, and to suggest I did is to suggest you missed the whole basis of my argument.
This thread is a great example in the lack of tolerance in freedom of religion. People saying you must believe how I believe, you must worship how I worship, you must tithe how I tithe, you must spread the word as I spread the word.
That right there is why I am not an active participant in organized religion. I have always been a very independent person and thinker. My religion is just that, mine. I do not believe that any form of religion is 100% right, nor are they 100% wrong. I have read tenets of all religions that make sense, and do not make sense. Heck, even the Christians can not agree. Muslims have been fighting each other for decades.
Why do these values need a source? Would it not be enough that they are shared?
I would say yes, the source is necessary on two levels:
1) for me to answer these ultimate questions to my personal satisfaction (I use my words here precisely recognizing these questions may not be ultimate to you)
2) for one group fo people to impose them upon another
For instance, Germany. From where does the international community get the authority to prosecute those who were involved in the holocaust? It was lawful according to their laws? Does the might of the victors in WWII make the actions of those men “wrong”? If they’d have won the war would they, by nature of their rejection within their laws, have been innocent?
If a time came when many nations decided to kill people and there was no international will to hold anyone to account would that make it ok?
From my perspective there are many rules of civil society that make no sense from a purely evolutionary perspective. I know that men like Sam Harris have challenged this and I’ve listened to his arguments but he always falls back upon an imagined objectivity to what is “good” and “bad” that isn’t self evident in the way he supposed it to be.
The values exist outside of faith, and there's bucketloads of examples where faith has often contravinened them
I could not agree more!
They exist in reality but from what source?
The fact that you and I recognize the grave offense of people of faith (or not) having violated them shows they’re as real as laws of nature like gravity.
So where did they come from to carry such near-universal weight in the hearts and minds of men?
And for the record I have never and never will say that non-believers don’t observe these, and to suggest I did is to suggest you missed the whole basis of my argument.
There's no need to make the fact that these values are widely shared a matter of epistemological and/or metaphysical inquiry, if your goal is simply to pursue the values.
Again, why is it important to identify an objective source for these shared values?
This thread is a great example in the lack of tolerance in freedom of religion. People saying you must believe how I believe...
I completely disagree. This is a great illustration of the beauty of our freedom of religion and of expression.
What I mean is this; we can come on a public site and disagree. We can disagree vehemently. We can even kind of annoy each other.
And then, as Kingston and I have done, we can hang out and laugh and enjoy one another’s friendship around guns and food and story telling.
And not, as in countries that don’t share our western values of freedom, kill each other over it.
If so and so says that I need to do such and such and I disagree the fact that his god says I’m going to hell matters not a bit to me, especially if I don’t even believe in his god.
Unlike the Left, I do not believe words are violence and I can disagree and still be friends.
As a matter of fact my life would be boring as heck if you all agreed with me. Not to mention we’d all be wrong on many counts...
I can even like Antelope Sniper and pray some day he'll buy me a steak dinner. What a heavenly thought. I can even pray we have that dinner in Heaven together. Yep, and with the great guy Gunner too. Well, a guy can dream, cant he?
Again, why is it important to identify an objective source for these shared values?
I think we have seen why a higher authority and source of nature’s rights is important in the argument about Constitutional rights.
TJ recognizes this issue in the Declaration of Independence when he recognized natural rights that came before govt, and which govt was instituted among men to protect.
When Leftists challenge our God-given right to self protection with a handgun or AR and then say “we don’t believe in God” does that, in our pluralistic society, mean we’re no longer allowed to exercise that right? Upon whose authority, the the Constitution is altered or ignored, do we have to say it’s ok?
In this case I’ll point out for M9mm that this isn’t even a Christian argument but one recognized as foundational to our republican system of government even by deists like Jefferson.
.... but when it comes to the very young, yes they do get a pass and if they die before they reach an age of accountability they go to Heaven.
Cite chapter and verse please
Age of accountability has been discussed here before and Christians argued amongst themselves coz some said 7 yr old and others said around 20 yrs ...except Bible doesnt give a number ....LoL...so they make their own schit up in the usual fashion.
Originally Posted by WMR
I see the sharing of the Word not as a threat, but as a lifeline. Your motivation is known only to you.
The word is your god created and empowers Satan....a loving God really ?
As a believer you need to respect his divine work no matter how sinister and diabolical it is.
Would someone put their Bible decoder ring on and give a spin story how all that evil is a good thing coz it was gods creation ..
Asaiah 45:7 (KJV) - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things -.
God is a unifying concept to help feeble men consolidate the vastness of their ignorance. I am glad of that... for my ignorance is without measurable bounds.
Religion is man's attempt to garner power for himself... very akin to the current "you are a racist" movement that is wildly popular now... for many.
My relationship with my God is mine and mine alone.
You relationship with your God (or no God) is yours and yours alone.
Of course there is overlap... same as the air we all breathe... God planned it that way.
For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the past few years especially, the secular religion of politics has become an obsession. On the Left and Right, adherence to a political philosophy can overshadow, or at the very least compete with, all other long-held beliefs. While the shift didn't suddenly begin in 2008, it was certainly pushed further along by Barack Obama's presidency. In response to his eight years in office, the Right searched for an answer that would stem the tide of progressivism. President Donald Trump created his own revival among the GOP faithful. Many religious conservatives even found a deep connection between his election victory and the idea that God would save the nation through him. But political allegiance isn't the same as spiritual, no matter how closely they resemble one another.
Americans seem to be finding a religious-type fervor in things outside the walls of the church, political or otherwise. Added into the mix is a pandemic that has discouraged attendance, and churches are emptier than ever. The global health crisis upended life as usual, and even committed attendees had to change their habits for safety reasons. At the start of the pandemic, nearly every church in America shut its doors to in-person services. By the end of last year, roughly 80% had opened back up for these regular services. But attendance is still incredibly low compared to pre-pandemic levels.
According to the Pew Research Center, the percentage of Americans who consider themselves to be nonreligious or unaffiliated is now at 29%. This has been a somewhat rapid rise from the 17% who said the same in 2009. As those who identify as Protestant or Catholic decrease, the so-called nones, as Pew describes them, have risen.
Eviction moratorium is unconstitutional, federal judge rules This shift toward a less religious American landscape is a loss for society. Beyond the chief reason for church, communing with God, and meeting with those of like-mind, church attendance brings other benefits. Religious communities are important players in cities and towns. A 2019 study by Pew shows that those who attend and are actively involved in church tend to self-describe as happier and more civically involved than their counterparts. It's not a mystery as to why this is the case. Connecting with others who share similar beliefs in a regular setting brings a strong sense of belonging. The camaraderie is unlike anything else found in other community organizations.
Our national discourse is fraught with anger and tension. There has been great struggle, sacrifice, and sadness over the past year. There is uncertainty surrounding both economic and public health. With challenges still remaining, there is no better time to seek spiritual guidance and hope at places that foster relationships and fellowship.
Kimberly Ross (@SouthernKeeks) is a contributor to the Washington Examiner's Beltway Confidential blog and a columnist at Arc Digital.
I hope youre at Sunrise Service RIGHT NOW. with some skin-in-the-game. Sure put my time in. For many years. Then cooked breakfast for hungry ass Boomers.
Not today, I slept in. Saving up for the friggin ‘Easter egg hunt’ that happens at 11am up there. The wife has the unfortunate draw of getting “nursery duty” today. Wonder how many brats will shît their onesies.
Church and Church work sucks the life out of the 10% that do all the work. That’s why not many want to go.
Theyre tired of taking care of lazy pew warmers that just to be coddled and have someone read to them and make them feel good. They don’t like sermons about commitments, church edification, kingdom work, discipleship and the Great Commission. Just lolly gaggers. Checking their watch, till it’s time to go stuff their pieholes agains at the catfish house or pizza buffet.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
Exactly, these values are not the exclusive domain of Christianity and pretending they are does a major disservice toward their achievement.
No, jack, those values aren't exclusive to Christianity. But the notion of inevitable suffering and the fact that suffering doesn't have to be in vain IS exclusively Christian.
The rest of the World is running around chasing good times and doing all they can to avoid pain & death. When those good times end, they have nothing. They have lost their highest value. It's very sad.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
Exactly, these values are not the exclusive domain of Christianity and pretending they are does a major disservice toward their achievement.
No, jack, those values aren't exclusive to Christianity. But the notion of inevitable suffering and the fact that suffering doesn't have to be in vain IS exclusively Christian.
The rest of the World is running around chasing good times and doing all they can to avoid pain & death. When those good times end, they have nothing. They have lost their highest value. It's very sad.
I can even like Antelope Sniper and pray some day he'll buy me a steak dinner. What a heavenly thought. I can even pray we have that dinner in Heaven together. Yep, and with the great guy Gunner too. Well, a guy can dream, cant he?
Doc,
If Heaven is a steakhouse in Texas, that's possible.
Buddhism teaches people the path they believe leads to a cessation of suffering. Christianity teaches us how to embrace suffering as part of the path to salvation.
Christianity says there is no avoidance of Earthly suffering and that it's cause is our fallen nature, something we can't change. Buddhism says the cause of suffering is ignorance, attachment, and aversion. Cessation of suffering is possible through the "right" path. Buddhism says that "Nirvana" (Heaven) can be achieved through “the noble eightfold path: right views, right resolution, right speech, right action, right living, right exertion, right mindfulness, right concentration”. No word in that about embracing the Cross. About as close as Christianity gets to that is the concept of virtue leading to a better life, but not one that excludes suffering.
Yes, I understand Buddhism. I studied it for several years and implemented many of it's practices before realizing that it is at heart self-centered.
[quote=IndyCA35]For the first time in 80 years, the number of Americans with dedicated church attendance has fallen below 50%. According to a Gallup poll released Monday, only 47% of those polled confirmed that they are members of a religious body. This is quite a decline from previous years of polling, which saw the number hover around the 70% mark for several decades. Unsurprisingly, the downward trend began around the dawn of the new century.
In the past few years especially, the secular religion of politics has become an obsession. On the Left and Right, adherence to a political philosophy can overshadow, or at the very least compete with, all other long-held beliefs. While the shift didn't suddenly begin in 2008, it was certainly pushed further along by Barack Obama's presidency. In response to his eight years in office, the Right searched for an answer that would stem the tide of progressivism. President Donald Trump created his own revival among the GOP faithful. Many religious conservatives even found a deep connection between his election victory and the idea that God would save the nation through him. But political allegiance isn't the same as spiritual, no matter how closely they resemble one another.
Americans seem to be finding a religious-type fervor in things outside the walls of the church, political or otherwise. Added into the mix is a pandemic that has discouraged attendance, and churches are emptier than ever. The global health crisis upended life as usual, and even committed attendees had to change their habits for safety reasons. At the start of the pandemic, nearly every church in America shut its doors to in-person services. By the end of last year, roughly 80% had opened back up for these regular services. But attendance is still incredibly low compared to pre-pandemic levels.
According to the Pew Research Center, the percentage of Americans who consider themselves to be nonreligious or unaffiliated is now at 29%. This has been a somewhat rapid rise from the 17% who said the same in 2009. As those who identify as Protestant or Catholic decrease, the so-called nones, as Pew describes them, have risen.
Eviction moratorium is unconstitutional, federal judge rules This shift toward a less religious American landscape is a loss for society. Beyond the chief reason for church, communing with God, and meeting with those of like-min
I hope youre at Sunrise Service RIGHT NOW. with some skin-in-the-game. Sure put my time in. For many years. Then cooked breakfast for hungry ass Boomers.
Not today, I slept in. Saving up for the friggin ‘Easter egg hunt’ that happens at 11am up there. The wife has the unfortunate draw of getting “nursery duty” today. Wonder how many brats will shît their onesies.
Church and Church work sucks the life out of the 10% that do all the work. That’s why not many want to go.
Theyre tired of taking care of lazy pew warmers that just to be coddled and have someone read to them and make them feel good. They don’t like sermons about commitments, church edification, kingdom work, discipleship and the Great Commission. Just lolly gaggers. Checking their watch, till it’s time to go stuff their pieholes agains at the catfish house or pizza buffet.
I’d say the 10% thing is a sign that there are too many programs and social business going on than the real purpose of the church. Sitting back looking at all the stuff that has nothing to do with the Gospel .... take that away .....
If you live a good, moral life, you'll end up where you're supposed to.
In that, you are saying that you can "do good" yourself into heaven. If that is the case then Jesus died for nothing.
In reality, there are none who can merit going to heaven without Jesus' righteousness imparted upon us None! It's the work of the cross not our own good works. No matter what you (or I) do, we will never be good enough to go.
Romans 3:23 NIV ..... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Isaiah 64:6 ...... But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness [good works] is as filthy rags
The article laying out research my Christian Smith seems to no longer be available on the net but there are a good number of articles written concerning the article.
In the early 2000’s he did research that looked at what teens and young adults of various religions and Christian denominations understood of truth, faith, God etc. The summation of what was found up was broken down conceptually to “Moralistic Therapeutic Diesm”. It’s with reading some sound articles that can be found since the research abstract isn’t accessible today.
Most of what passes as a representation of the Christian Faith on this forum reflect what his research revealed.
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
Exactly, these values are not the exclusive domain of Christianity and pretending they are does a major disservice toward their achievement.
No, jack, those values aren't exclusive to Christianity. But the notion of inevitable suffering and the fact that suffering doesn't have to be in vain IS exclusively Christian.
The rest of the World is running around chasing good times and doing all they can to avoid pain & death. When those good times end, they have nothing. They have lost their highest value. It's very sad.
I see you don't know a thing about Buddisism.
Beat me to it... 4 noble truths: 1) Life sucks 2) It sucks because you’re materialistic and vein 3) It doesn’t have to suck 4) Quit being a materialistic self involved [bleep] and it will suck less
So if you live a good life, help others whenever possible, do no one any harm. Raise good kids etc... but don’t accept Jesus as lord and savior, you go to hell. But you can be a murdering, child rapist and repent and accept Jesus 15 min before they throw the switch on your ass and you’ll go to heaven?
So we blame religion on the problems of our nation. We should be getting better if that's the case since the church is losing it's influence. We've taken God out of everything for the last 60 years and we still are seeing a decline in morals. Shouldn't that trend be going the other way if it was right to do that? Maybe if we pass a law against religion it would help.
It’s not taking “God” out of everything.... it’s taking common sense, decency, civility and reality out of everything. God has nothing to do with it.
Exactly, these values are not the exclusive domain of Christianity and pretending they are does a major disservice toward their achievement.
No, jack, those values aren't exclusive to Christianity. But the notion of inevitable suffering and the fact that suffering doesn't have to be in vain IS exclusively Christian.
The rest of the World is running around chasing good times and doing all they can to avoid pain & death. When those good times end, they have nothing. They have lost their highest value. It's very sad.
I see you don't know a thing about Buddisism.
Beat me to it... 4 noble truths: 1) Life sucks 2) It sucks because you’re materialistic and vein 3) It doesn’t have to suck 4) Quit being a materialistic self involved [bleep] and it will suck less
Buddhism teaches people the path they believe leads to a cessation of suffering. Christianity teaches us how to embrace suffering as part of the path to salvation.
Christianity says there is no avoidance of Earthly suffering and that it's cause is our fallen nature, something we can't change. Buddhism says the cause of suffering is ignorance, attachment, and aversion. Cessation of suffering is possible through the "right" path. Buddhism says that "Nirvana" (Heaven) can be achieved through “the noble eightfold path: right views, right resolution, right speech, right action, right living, right exertion, right mindfulness, right concentration”. No word in that about embracing the Cross. About as close as Christianity gets to that is the concept of virtue leading to a better life, but not one that excludes suffering.
Yes, I understand Buddhism. I studied it for several years and implemented many of it's practices before realizing that it is at heart self-centered.
You are correct in the respect that Buddhism, like Stoicism, put the responsibility for your condition upon YOU, and doesn't provide the "outs" of blaming the Devil, or God, or some woman who ate an apple.
So if you live a good life, help others whenever possible, do no one any harm. Raise good kids etc... but don’t accept Jesus as lord and savior, you go to hell. But you can be a murdering, child rapist and repent and accept Jesus 15 min before they throw the switch on your ass and you’ll go to heaven?
Makes total sense....
I said basically the same thing in one of these religion threads the other day. There is no way that the omnipotent, all knowing and wisest being in the universe would set up a system of cosmic justice that f#*^ed up. And if he did then he's 100 times more evil than Hitler.
You are correct in the respect that Buddhism, like Stoicism, put the responsibility for your condition upon YOU, and doesn't provide the "outs" of blaming the Devil, or God, or some woman who ate an apple.
Buddhism, like Stoicism, gets a lot of things right. Even Christianity teaches that some types of suffering can be avoided through virtue.
I know things are going well for you now, you are crushing life. But it won't always be that way and it won't necessarily be because you did anything wrong.
You're a good dude, but no amount of charity, meditation or anything else is going to save you from suffering at some point.
Christ calls us to pick up our cross as a blessing, not something to be avoided at all cost. It's a tough thing to do. It's why so many are called and so few make it.
And Christianity doesn't guarantee that virtue brings worldly success either. Any religion that does is a flat-out lie.
ETA: I used to follow Lao Tzu, performing his health/spiritual practices daily for several years.
You are correct in the respect that Buddhism, like Stoicism, put the responsibility for your condition upon YOU, and doesn't provide the "outs" of blaming the Devil, or God, or some woman who ate an apple.
Buddhism, like Stoicism, gets a lot of things right. Even Christianity teaches that some types of suffering can be avoided through virtue.
I know things are going well for you now, you are crushing life. But it won't always be that way and it won't necessarily be because you did anything wrong.
You're a good dude, but no amount of charity, meditation or anything else is going to save you from suffering at some point.
Christ calls us to pick up our cross as a blessing, not something to be avoided at all cost. It's a tough thing to do. It's why so many are called and so few make it.
This thread is a great example in the lack of tolerance in freedom of religion. People saying you must believe how I believe...
I completely disagree. This is a great illustration of the beauty of our freedom of religion and of expression.
What I mean is this; we can come on a public site and disagree. We can disagree vehemently. We can even kind of annoy each other.
And then, as Kingston and I have done, we can hang out and laugh and enjoy one another’s friendship around guns and food and story telling.
And not, as in countries that don’t share our western values of freedom, kill each other over it.
If so and so says that I need to do such and such and I disagevoutistree the fact that his god says I’m going to hell matters not a bit to me, especially if I don’t even believe in his god.
Unlike the Left, I do not believe words are violence and I can disagree and still be friends.
As a matter of fact my life would be boring as heck if you all agreed with me. Not to mention we’d all be wrong on many counts...
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Unlike most?
Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?
I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Unlike most?
Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?
I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.
Do you agree?
I certainly do.
The fact that it wasn't always the case regarding Christianity, however, also weighs heavily in my assessment.
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Unlike most?
Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?
I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.
Do you agree?
Credible in who's mind? In the mind of the believers, yes they threaten atheist with eternal torture during everyone one of these discussions.
Credible in who's mind? In the mind of the believers, yes they threaten atheist with eternal torture during everyone one of these discussions.
Who cares?
If a person who believes in wood fairies says that I’ve violated the forest and I’m going to be punished by them would I care? (No)
And that isn’t it even a fair comparison; for many here a more fair comparison would be
If a person who believes in wood fairies warns me that if I do X to violate the forest I’ll be in danger of being punished by them... that is, because they believe it to be true and don’t care to see harm come to me.
Either way my original point stands. If you don’t believe the threat to be credible it matters not.
Credible in who's mind? In the mind of the believers, yes they threaten atheist with eternal torture during everyone one of these discussions.
Who cares?
If a person who believes in wood fairies says that I’ve violated the forest and I’m going to be punished by them would I care? (No)
And that isn’t it even a fair comparison; for many here a more fair comparison would be
If a person who believes in wood fairies warns me that if I do X to violate the forest I’ll be in danger of being punished by them... that is, because they believe it to be true and don’t care to see harm come to me.
Either way my original point stands. If you don’t believe the threat to be credible it matters not.
So Christians should just get a free pass when they threaten people with eternal suffering if they do not bend to their ways? What about when they do it to impressionable children?
This thread is all over the place. I will add this;
IMO if there's anyone out there that does not understand that empty pews in the churches of our neighborhoods and the state of our nation do not have direct correlation they're severely deluded. Our freedoms are connected to our nation and fairly unique to it.
John Wesley said "What one generation tolerates the next generation will embrace".
The Bible is full of the words "The people did what was good and right in thier own eyes" or just "what was good to themselves". Just read from the prophets and you'll know where it ends.
So Christians should just get a free pass when they threaten people with eternal suffering if they do not bend to their ways? What about when they do it to impressionable children?
That's not even a fair question.
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
How about when Christians restrict the sale of alcohol on Sunday like they do in may places here in the south. Or restrict hunting on Sunday like they do in Virginia. How is that not using the law to force people to participate in your belief that Sunday is a holy day?
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
How about when Christians restrict the sale of alcohol on Sunday like they do in may places here in the south. Or restrict hunting on Sunday like they do in Virginia. How is that not using the law to force people to participate in your belief that Sunday is a holy day?
So, do these actions (which I have neither participated in nor condone) force you to believe anything at all?
You are correct in the respect that Buddhism, like Stoicism, put the responsibility for your condition upon YOU, and doesn't provide the "outs" of blaming the Devil, or God, or some woman who ate an apple.
Buddhism, like Stoicism, gets a lot of things right. Even Christianity teaches that some types of suffering can be avoided through virtue.
I know things are going well for you now, you are crushing life. But it won't always be that way and it won't necessarily be because you did anything wrong.
You're a good dude, but no amount of charity, meditation or anything else is going to save you from suffering at some point.
Christ calls us to pick up our cross as a blessing, not something to be avoided at all cost. It's a tough thing to do. It's why so many are called and so few make it.
And Christianity doesn't guarantee that virtue brings worldly success either. Any religion that does is a flat-out lie.
ETA: I used to follow Lao Tzu, performing his health/spiritual practices daily for several years.
your way or the highway....this is why religion sucks....the only true belief is the one you hold everyone else is wrong...what if you are the one that is wrong?......bob
So Christians should just get a free pass when they threaten people with eternal suffering if they do not bend to their ways? What about when they do it to impressionable children?
That's not even a fair question.
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
Generally, it's not intended as a friendly warning, but a threat, and very commonly comes after all the Christians better arguments are expended. Often this is cloaked in the form of Pascals Wager, but it reality, it's the no different from a mob protection racket. "Ya got a nice life here, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it, and you burned forever. Hey kid, don't be stupid like your old man here, you better fall in line, pay your rent or it will happen to you too.".
Additionally, what does it say about the morality of people who would willingly follow such a god? By our legal standards such a god is a criminal. Extortion is a Felony. In what other aspect of your life do you willingly follow a criminal and make criminal threats on his behalf?
your way or the highway....this is why religion sucks....the only true belief is the one you hold everyone else is wrong...what if you are the one that is wrong?......bob
So Christians should just get a free pass when they threaten people with eternal suffering if they do not bend to their ways? What about when they do it to impressionable children?
That's not even a fair question.
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
Generally, it's not intended as a friendly warning, but a threat, and very commonly comes after all the Christians better arguments are expended. Often this is cloaked in the form of Pascals Wager, but it reality, it's the no different from a mob protection racket. "Ya got a nice life here, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it, and you burned forever. Hey kid, don't be stupid like your old man here, you better fall in line, pay your rent or it will happen to you too.".
Additionally, what does it say about the morality of people who would willingly follow such a god? By our legal standards such a god is a criminal. Extortion is a Felony. In what other aspect of your life do you willingly follow a criminal and make criminal threats on his behalf?
What do those random Christians get out of that? Protection racket?! Are you serious?!
You are better than that.
This is why I've pretty much given up arguing with you. You know it's about free will and the fact that choices have consequences. I hope you figure it out someday. It's not a lack of intelligence that you suffer from.
Sincerely, I wish you the best with your temper tantrum against nature.
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.
In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).
This might be the wrong time to look at church attendance considering most are closed. Besides God is with you all the time.
That’s a good point but it also begs the question of how important attendance ever was in the first place given how easily many churches ceased to assemble.
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.
In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).
So Christians should just get a free pass when they threaten people with eternal suffering if they do not bend to their ways? What about when they do it to impressionable children?
That's not even a fair question.
If I warn someone of consequences that another has in store for them, how am I threatening them?
Generally, it's not intended as a friendly warning, but a threat, and very commonly comes after all the Christians better arguments are expended. Often this is cloaked in the form of Pascals Wager, but it reality, it's the no different from a mob protection racket. "Ya got a nice life here, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it, and you burned forever. Hey kid, don't be stupid like your old man here, you better fall in line, pay your rent or it will happen to you too.".
Additionally, what does it say about the morality of people who would willingly follow such a god? By our legal standards such a god is a criminal. Extortion is a Felony. In what other aspect of your life do you willingly follow a criminal and make criminal threats on his behalf?
What do those random Christians get out of that? Protection racket?! Are you serious?!
You are better than that.
This is why I've pretty much given up arguing with you. You know it's about free will and the fact that choices have consequences. I hope you figure it out someday. It's not a lack of intelligence that you suffer from.
Sincerely, I wish you the best with your temper tantrum against nature.
Christians have a difficult time stepping back and looking at the idea of an omnipotent and omniscient being, creator of everything, choosing to create evil.
Right there's a big hmmmmmmm????
Then, the idea that if someone lives their whole life literally never breaking any of the Christian god's laws, but for some reason either chooses not to believe in Jesus or never even hears about him, they are tortured for eternity after they die.
Seems legit.
Or, one could look around and reasonably conclude that if there is a "creator" there's a pretty good chance it doesn't care a whole lot about those things running around on the third rock from our particular sun, one of trillions of such rocks floating around trillions of stars.
And don't even start thinking about how incredibly messed up it is that all the evil things that happen happen if there is a god that's paying attention. An all-powerful being choosing to allow satan to exist......
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).
You are correct in the respect that Buddhism, like Stoicism, put the responsibility for your condition upon YOU, and doesn't provide the "outs" of blaming the Devil, or God, or some woman who ate an apple.
Buddhism, like Stoicism, gets a lot of things right. Even Christianity teaches that some types of suffering can be avoided through virtue.
I know things are going well for you now, you are crushing life. But it won't always be that way and it won't necessarily be because you did anything wrong.
You're a good dude, but no amount of charity, meditation or anything else is going to save you from suffering at some point.
Christ calls us to pick up our cross as a blessing, not something to be avoided at all cost. It's a tough thing to do. It's why so many are called and so few make it.
And Christianity doesn't guarantee that virtue brings worldly success either. Any religion that does is a flat-out lie.
ETA: I used to follow Lao Tzu, performing his health/spiritual practices daily for several years.
Tyrone, Happy Easter to you and all those you love.
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, in certain aspects of my life I'm crushing it, and doing better than ever before. In others parts things are.......interesting, I just don't share my drama's on The Fire or other social medias. I've had my struggles that were not the result of my own doing, and my primary tools for working thought these derive from core tenants of Stoicism and Skepticism, neither of which make any guarantee's to worldly success. Of course Buddhism isn't monolithic, but in general, it makes no promises of worldly success either. Actually, it's promises quit the contrary, that life is suffering and provides idea on how to mitigate how you allow this to affect you.
In my mind, Christianity's just another take on this same dilemma that adds an unnecessary supernatural element. (Now to be fair some forms of Buddhism do worship The Buddha as a God and include an origin story with super natural aspects, but I digress...) I take a more holistic approach to literature during the navigation of life's challenges. I don't limit myself to one philosophy, or one writer of one era, or one discipline, and don't consider any specific one as divinely inspired so I'm able to perform a less biased evaluation of the relevant text and idea.
You will noticed I included Christianity, because sometimes it provides very relevant idea. I'll give you a example. My daughter and her boyfriend were considering a move to another state. His father did not want them to leave for his own selfish reasons, so I sat down with them to discuss. And upon what did this discussion center? Genesis, Chapter 12, verse 1 and 2:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Sure, it's from the Bible, but on that day, it was the wisdom that best applied to their situation, but of course I skipped the part about Abraham whoring out his wife as his sister, because well, that didn't apply.
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.
Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did.
It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together.
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.
Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did. It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together. I had better just stop right there.
With attitudes such as that, it’s no wonder that church attendance continues to decline in this country. Nobody resists churches because they love others too much. Nobody resists churches because they are too welcoming of others. Nobody resists churches because they are too willing to carry others people's burdens. Nobody resists churches because they're so forgiving and so open and so gracious. What many people find so easy to resist about churches is the very attitude displayed by you via your above posts. And it ‘is’ the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. People don't resist churches because of Jesus...people resist churches because of ‘Christians’. Thank God following Jesus does not mean following other ‘Christians’.
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints).
I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unchurched, and I want no part of a congregation that feels no obligation for reaching out to the unsaved. The exclusivity of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. The ‘members only’ attitude of what you describe above is the polar opposite of what Jesus Himself did. He was even criticized by the ‘holier than thou’ crowd because of the kind of people He chose to hang out with.
Wrong. You obviously have NO understanding of what I am talking about, no understanding of what the church is, and it seems you also have no understanding of what Jesus Himself did.
It is not the job of the pastor, nor should it be the purpose of the worship service to evangelize the lost. That is the job of each and every one of us, every day. Admittedly, I ain't very good at it. If someone who is not a Christian comes in to the worship service, he should be welcomed and told whatever he needs to be told, and if he then professes Christ, that's wonderful... but that is not the purpose of the saints gathering together.
I had better just stop right there.
Just an honest question: If evangelizing is no part of the pastor’s job, and you’re not good at it, then how does it happen at all?
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Unlike most?
Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?
I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.
Do you agree?
No , you seem to be a live, let live type when it comes to your faith. Not forcing your beliefs or judging anyone else.
I do not think your belief is complete and utter nonsense. I respect your beliefs. Freedom of religion and all.....
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.
In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).
I would add this thought for consideration. Is the church service something that we are to do or are we there to receive something?. That question is not new in the history of the church all the way back to the Garden. Does God need us to “go do something” or is He doing something for His people during the divine service? Looking back finding an answer to that enlightening.
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”
Problem is that I’ve never found the latitude given in scripture for the Christian to view God as he pleases or chooses.
Not much change here in Vermont which according to what I have read is one of..... if not the least church going state. Church parking lots are used mostly for farmers markets now.
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”
Problem is that I’ve never found the latitude given in scripture for the Christian to view God as he pleases or chooses.
It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian is completely dependent upon “scripture” to tell them what their own “view” of God is. There were tens of thousands of Christians who knew the God of the New Testament before there ever was a New Testament. They knew that God loved them, and what God had done for them, before a New Testament ever told them so. Some people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Others prefer to choose a ‘relationship’ that is dictated to them by what’s between the covers of a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began. Nor did it exist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Then in the 4th century when the Christian scriptures were bound together with the Hebrew scriptures to become ‘the Bible’...it was kept out of the hands of the people by the Church for another 1200 years. Christians have been without ‘the Bible’ for a whole lot longer than they’ve had it.
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama.
He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
I’ve been to churches that put me to sleep because they were so boring and so legalistic and so formal and so lifeless. They oughta make convicts sit through their services as part of their punishment. I like an appealing setting, engaging communication, and helpful content. And I like really good live music and fog machines and colored lights; and I like warehouse type settings with folding chairs and conversational type sermons, where I can bring coffee or ice tea into the worship area during the service. I don’t care for natural light or stained glass or choirs or pews or robes being worn by the pastor. Informal, non-traditional, and laid-back as described above puts me WAY more in the mood to worship Jesus in a building.
In order to reach people that no one else is reaching, you’ve got to do things that no one else is doing. Leading people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus is more easily done in a warm, friendly, enjoyable, casual environment (with high-energy worship music) than it is in a cold, unfriendly, no-fun, formal environment (with boring worship services).
The church service is not supposed to be a concert or a laser light show. (nor is it for "reaching the lost"!. It is for praising God and the edification of the saints). The modern pop-culture nonsense is why I LEFT the church I grew up in. It went "modern" (though so far, no fog machines that I know of...yet).
I would add this thought for consideration. Is the church service something that we are to do or are we there to receive something?. That question is not new in the history of the church all the way back to the Garden. Does God need us to “go do something” or is He doing something for His people during the divine service? Looking back finding an answer to that enlightening.
Jesus didn’t come to “receive something,” He came to “do” something. He didn’t come to ‘be served,’ but ‘to serve.’ He made this crystal clear to His disciples. Jesus taught His disciples to be servants. He taught them service and humility. He even washed their stinking’ feet...!
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama. He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama. He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
Indeed...!
As i was driving away that 'mysterious ways" deal i remember from vacation bible school flashed across my brain pan ; ]
It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian is completely dependent upon “scripture” to tell them what their own “view” of God is. There were tens of thousands of Christians who knew the God of the New Testament before there ever was a New Testament. They knew that God loved them, and what God had done for them, before a New Testament ever told them so. Some people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Others prefer to choose a ‘relationship’ that is dictated to them by what’s between the covers of a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began. Nor did it exist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Then in the 4th century when the Christian scriptures were bound together with the Hebrew scriptures to become ‘the Bible’...it was kept out of the hands of the people by the Church for another 1200 years. Christians have been without ‘the Bible’ for a whole lot longer than they’ve had it.
The pre-Bible Christians had the preaching of actual Apostles at first, plus they had the Old Testament. In fact, many of them met in synagogues and read OT scripture. Before the Apostles were dead, they had their writings and the writings of their first students. They also had the spoken teaching of ordained successors. None of the early diocese had all the new writings, but they all had some. It didn't take very long for word to get out that some writings were better than others, and the good ones got copied and shared.
So it was never like the original Christians were without guidance, they didn't come up with their own beliefs.
Well, well, well, i stopped by a buds shop on the way back into town yesterday, we were shooting the crap, i looked over on his deep freezer to see to two 1000 count boxes of small pistol primers, both CCI's, one regular and one mag, i hollered good score buddy!!!!! he laughed, you know old Joe, yeah why? his daddy that recently passed was a gunsmith, i told Joe you had loaded a thousand pistol rounds for folk that go to church with your Mama. He handed me these and said i'll cover the primers, TWO times! i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
Indeed...!
As i was driving away that 'mysterious ways" deal i remember from vacation bible school flashed across my brain pan ; ]
The pre-Bible Christians had the preaching of actual Apostles at first, plus they had the Old Testament.
The Hebrew scriptures meant NOTHING to the Gentiles.
Originally Posted by Tyrone
So it was never like the original Christians were without guidance, they didn't come up with their own beliefs.
I believe that guidance from God Himself was available to the “original Christians” as the Apostles clearly taught it was. And I believe that guidance from God Himself is still available to Christians nowadays. Guidance doesn’t only come from scripture and preaching...it didn’t back then and it doesn’t now.
The pre-Bible Christians had the preaching of actual Apostles at first, plus they had the Old Testament.
The Hebrew scriptures meant NOTHING to the Gentiles.
Then why was it translated into the language of Gentiles, Greek?
Quote
Originally Posted by Tyrone
So it was never like the original Christians were without guidance, they didn't come up with their own beliefs.
I believe that guidance from God Himself was available to the “original Christians” as the Apostles clearly taught it was. And I believe that guidance from God Himself is still available to Christians nowadays. Guidance doesn’t only come from scripture and preaching...it didn’t back then and it doesn’t now.
The laws are written on ALL men's hearts by the Holy Spirit. But that is only the most basic moral law. And of course, we all benefit from having that law pointed out and reinforced by our brethren, something that can't happen outside of a community. Without a community, we are vulnerable to the snares of Satan. How easy would it be to follow the Holy Spirit if we were immersed in say, Wahabism?
And of course, the basic moral law doesn't tell much about the specifics of how Christ asked that we worship him.
antlers, it's funny. My idea of what a church should be drives you away.... and your idea of what a church should be drives me away.
Yep. We see things differently regarding this matter. That’s OK with me. People see things differently regarding politics, the economy, certainly religion, and pretty much anything else. To me, the church is most appealing...and ‘Christians’ are most appealing...when grace is most apparent. And Jesus extends grace to all...not just to “the saints”...but also to “the lost.”
Problem is that I’ve never found the latitude given in scripture for the Christian to view God as he pleases or chooses.
It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian is completely dependent upon “scripture” to tell them what their own “view” of God is. There were tens of thousands of Christians who knew the God of the New Testament before there ever was a New Testament. They knew that God loved them, and what God had done for them, before a New Testament ever told them so. Some people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Others prefer to choose a ‘relationship’ that is dictated to them by what’s between the covers of a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began. Nor did it exist for the first 300 years of Christianity. Then in the 4th century when the Christian scriptures were bound together with the Hebrew scriptures to become ‘the Bible’...it was kept out of the hands of the people by the Church for another 1200 years. Christians have been without ‘the Bible’ for a whole lot longer than they’ve had it.
Getting back to the original subject of the thread, the decline in church attendance makes society as a whole more vulnerable to the wickedness of the devil.
The Apostles taught the Old Testament to gentile converts to Christianity...
From a historical perspective regarding Israel. Gentiles didn’t care, at all, about the Hebrew scriptures (what we call the Old Testament). It was a covenant that God made with Israel. It was NOT a covenant that God made with Gentiles. Apostle Paul, better than anyone else, understood the stark contrast between what had come before (the Old Covenant made with Israel) and the kingdom that Jesus came to introduce (the New Covenant made with ALL people). Apostle Paul knew the legalism, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, and exclusivity that characterized ancient Judaism would eventually seep into and erode the beauty, simplicity, and appeal of Jesus’ New Covenant. Paul realized, and taught, that Jesus’ followers were accountable to His New Covenant commands. NOT the 600 and something laws in the Old Covenant, NOT the Ten Commandments, and NOT the Mosaic Law. At all. In ANY way, shape, or form.
No. Paul said that if it weren’t true I’d was foolish to follow. Stoicism is likely more sound as a code for living.
Your answer to this:
Originally Posted by antlers
Do ‘you’ find any value in Christianity itself, apart from scripture...?
Originally Posted by IZH27
The whole post was an answer to your question.
Thanks for clarifying that you find no value in Christianity itself apart from scripture. You and I are very much in disagreement with each other regarding this matter. And that’s OK with me. Our disagreement doesn’t diminish the reality of Jesus or the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
Once again, isn't freedom of religion great. You have a great outlook, unlike most.
Unlike most?
Has someone leveled a credible threat of violence against you?
I’d say the fact that you can say my belief in God is complete and utter non-sense and that you want nothing to do with fools who believe such superstition (not that you have... but that you can) without concern for your family, property, or life says a lot.
Do you agree?
Credible in who's mind? In the mind of the believers, yes they threaten atheist with eternal torture during everyone one of these discussions.
So, you're walking in the woods and a pack of vicious pit bulls is coming up behind you at high speed, obviously intent on rendering your backside useless. Someone yells at you about them. Is that a threat or a warning?
You're going through life ignoring what Christians know to be true and hell's fires are getting hotter as you get older. Someone yells at you to take steps to avoid getting burned. Is that a threat or a warning?
A threat is saying I'm going to do something to you if you don't comply. A warning is telling you something that I have no control over is going to happen to you you don't takes steps to avoid it. There's a difference.
Getting back to the original subject of the thread, the decline in church attendance makes society as a whole more vulnerable to the wickedness of the devil.
Most of the churches I’ve been around done work for or been associated with had to many chiefs and not enough Indians and there funds have been either embezzled or sent to places not of their choosing kind of like taxes and politics I’d just as soon go fishing or work in the garden on Sunday
No. Paul said that if it weren’t true I’d was foolish to follow. Stoicism is likely more sound as a code for living.
Your answer to this:
Originally Posted by antlers
Do ‘you’ find any value in Christianity itself, apart from scripture...?
Originally Posted by IZH27
The whole post was an answer to your question.
Thanks for clarifying that you find no value in Christianity itself apart from scripture. You and I are very much in disagreement with each other regarding this matter. And that’s OK with me. Our disagreement doesn’t diminish the reality of Jesus or the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
The reason that I asked is that Paul makes a comment to the Corinthians that if our only Hope for Christ is in this world we are to be pitied above all men.
Since Christianity isn't a system or philosophy it isn't a code for living. Devoid of Christ Christianity is useless. Were there an absence of the God Who is there Christianity would fall far down on the list of ways to live life.
Now. I didn't say that "as a Christian" if find no value in the Faith apart from Scripture. I'm not asking questions with a hook in them. Not sure about your questions so I'll take them at face value.
You deny being a Mystic or Gnostic. As I have read your posts on these threads I find your position confusing at best. If I remember your posts you put no emphasis of importance on what is recorded in the 66 books. Do you hold that you have personal communication with God? If so, what is that like?
Since Christianity isn't a system or philosophy it isn't a code for living.
I believe the movement that Jesus started is most definitely a way of living. I do ‘not’ believe the movement that Jesus started is a legalistic set of propositions, rules, or religious rituals.
Originally Posted by IZH27
As I have read your posts on these threads I find your position confusing at best.
Clearly. And that’s OK with me. Some find comfort within the confines of legalism. I’m not one of em’.
Originally Posted by IZH27
If I remember your posts you put no emphasis of importance on what is recorded in the 66 books.
Wrong. I just put ‘much more’ emphasis of importance on the resurrection of Jesus since it is the foundation of Christianity. The Bible isn’t.
Originally Posted by IZH27
Do you hold that you have personal communication with God?
Do ‘you’ not...?
Originally Posted by IZH27
If so, what is that like?
’You’ don’t know what personal communication with God is like...?
I learned about Jesus from my grandfather when I was a boy.
How did you test what your grandfather taught? How did you know if he was right or wrong?
I was just a boy, you think I should have tested what my grandfather taught me then...? I was just a boy, you think I should have known if my grandfather was right or wrong then...?
He who healed the sick and cast out demons when He walked among men is the same mighty Redeemer today. Faith comes by the Word of God, then grasp His promise: "Him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37
Cast yourself at His feet with the cry; "Lord; I believe, help Thou mine unbelief." You can never perish when you do this -- never.
’You’ don’t know what personal communication with God is like...?
I certainly do not. Nor do I know anyone who makes the claim. Not even the most devout among my dearest family members have ever made the claim that they have heard God speak to them. They all pray multiple times/day. But "communication" is inherently bidirectional.
Prayer is personal communication with God. Prayer is personal interaction with God. Communication and interaction are important in any relationship. And God can express Himself to us by any means He chooses...through nature, a sermon, experiences, even through other people. And guidance from the Holy Spirit is communication from God.
Can you provide examples of ways, times, means, messages that God has spoken to you?
I have many conversations related to religion with people throughout the year. Many people hold the view that you and p weed are sharing. I have yet to find sound answers from anyone regarding what this communication looks like and how it happens.
Can you provide examples of ways, times, means, messages that God has spoken to you?
I think I made it pretty clear just fine, previously:
Originally Posted by antlers
Prayer is personal communication with God. Prayer is personal interaction with God. Communication and interaction are important in any relationship. And God can express Himself to us by any means He chooses...through nature, a sermon, experiences, even through other people. And guidance from the Holy Spirit is communication from God.
Originally Posted by IZH27
I have many conversations related to religion with people throughout the year. Many people hold the view that you and p weed are sharing.
Many people choose to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior. Some...such as yourself, apparently...choose not to. Some...such as yourself, apparently...choose the shackles and confines of legalism instead.
Originally Posted by IZH27
I have yet to find sound answers from anyone regarding what this communication looks like and how it happens.
Clearly. It’s telling (and sad) that someone/anyone who professes to be a Christian and has the very Spirit of God living within them that raised Jesus from the dead, but they have no personal communication with Him...! Jesus Himself promised that this Spirit would guide us and that we would be led by Him. We are not left on our own to wonder what God desires to communicate.
Do ‘you’ believe that God can speak to you separately, one on one today, rather than you just getting all of your answers from what He told somebody else 2000 years ago...?
I’m trying to express to you that experience has informed me that there are a blue million ideas about how people communicate with God be they Christian or any other religion. Many people who identify as Christian “communicate with God “ in the same and or similar ways as non believers.
I am not asking for you to recount your view of how you believe that this happens. Neither am I saying that this doesn’t happen for you. I am asking for specific examples.
Considering the nature of religion, regional, family, ethnic and any other such influence, people often use the same words and concepts but with different understanding of the context and meaning. Examples of what one believes aids in the ability to actually understand what someone is saying. That is why I am asking you for specific context and example. Your answer is general enough to be a statement from a practitioner of quite a few religions.
I’m trying to express to you that experience has informed me that there are a blue million ideas about how people communicate with God be they Christian or any other religion. Many people who identify as Christian “communicate with God “ in the same and or similar ways as non believers.
OK. So what...? If it seems that way to you, then why do ‘you’ seem to struggle with that...?
Originally Posted by IZH27
I am not asking for you to recount your view of how you believe that this happens. Neither am I saying that this doesn’t happen for you. I am asking for specific examples.
Through prayer is a specific example. Through God’s creation is a specific example. Through a sermon is a specific example. Through life experiences is a specific example. Through other people is a specific example. Through guidance from the Holy Spirit is a specific example.
Do ‘you’ believe that God can speak to you separately, one on one today, rather than you just getting all of your answers from what He told somebody else 2000 years ago...?
Organized religion is to blame for this. All the scandals etc. Mix religion and money and it’s a downward spiral.
My faith is between me and God. I don’t need to go to church for reassurance like most.
Happy Easter to all.
Carry on...
This man has the answer.
sometimes I put on a religious show on tv for the fun of it.....it is disgusting what the preachers say and how they act
asking for money so they can upgrade their jets....you now so they can spread the gospel and not have to fly with demons and all that.....if there is a hell thats where they need to be.....
organized religion is the biggest scam going.......bob
Organized religion is to blame for this. All the scandals etc. Mix religion and money and it’s a downward spiral.
My faith is between me and God. I don’t need to go to church for reassurance like most.
Happy Easter to all.
Carry on...
This man has the answer.
Yep. It’s as simple as that. There are no tangible or intangible benefits of any organized religion. I wonder if the communities that are routinely served by many churches would agree?
It’s been fun but you’ve given me all that I need to understand. You obviously can’t or won’t explain your views other than vague generalities that are no different from that the claims that pagan religions make.
It’s worth considering that this type vague subjectivity is widespread within modern Christianity and a reality that fuels the unbelief of many. If subjective religion is all that we offer what benefit is that to anyone. Christianity above all other religions is objective.
Organized religion is to blame for this. All the scandals etc. Mix religion and money and it’s a downward spiral.
My faith is between me and God. I don’t need to go to church for reassurance like most.
Happy Easter to all.
Carry on...
This man has the answer.
sometimes I put on a religious show on tv for the fun of it.....it is disgusting what the preachers say and how they act
asking for money so they can upgrade their jets....you now so they can spread the gospel and not have to fly with demons and all that.....if there is a hell thats where they need to be.....
organized religion is the biggest scam going.......bob
That is a sick and sad entertainment and it is “organized religion”. It just ain’t Christianity.
At some level declining church attendance means the churches and church people have to figure out what they need to be doing to feed their flocks. The ELCA for example can't figure it out for the life of them.
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Organized religion is to blame for this. All the scandals etc. Mix religion and money and it’s a downward spiral.
My faith is between me and God. I don’t need to go to church for reassurance like most.
Happy Easter to all.
Carry on...
This man has the answer.
sometimes I put on a religious show on tv for the fun of it.....it is disgusting what the preachers say and how they act
asking for money so they can upgrade their jets....you now so they can spread the gospel and not have to fly with demons and all that.....if there is a hell thats where they need to be.....
organized religion is the biggest scam going.......bob ...
That is a sick and sad entertainment and it is “organized religion”. It just ain’t Christianity.
not sick and sad...just now and then gives one great insight......so who is right and has the true way.....Mormons...Catholics ....etc.....everybody thinks their way is the right way..
Antlers. It’s been fun but you’ve given me all that I need to understand. You obviously can’t or won’t explain your views other than vague generalities that are no different from that the claims that pagan religions make.
Then it should be no problem for you to provide examples of these pagan religions that you’ve mentioned above that have a one on one relationship with the Creator of the universe, that have a one on one relationship with a resurrected Savior, who takes an active (and interactive) role in their lives, who has extended grace to them and all that is required of them is to accept that grace so they can spend eternity with their Creator and Savior, that makes their lives better (and makes them better at life), who promises to walk through this life with them, who is the very definition of love itself, who promises to ease their burdens, and who actually gave His life because of the love that He has for His followers.
Originally Posted by IZH27
It’s worth considering that this type vague subjectivity is widespread within modern Christianity and a reality that fuels the unbelief of many. If subjective religion is all that we offer what benefit is that to anyone. Christianity above all other religions is objective.
No offense, but you do come across as being in an emotional desert and of being spiritually dry. You clearly struggle with things that people who are confident of their Savior and confident of their relationship with Him do not struggle with. Anybody who reads these threads knows that I’m pretty open and willing to share my views. I’ve been far more open sharing my views than you have. By far. Your evasiveness and redirecting is obvious, not only on this thread, but on others of this nature as well. And it’s been pointed out by others. It’s OK with me for you to continue to believe whatever you choose to believe. You clearly don’t like my specific views because they don’t fit within the confines of your chosen framework of legalism.
’You’ don’t know what personal communication with God is like...?
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
Many folks think they can do better on their own, which is the crux of this whole thread. It's the same rebellion that was the original sin. Man's rejection of God's word, thinking they know better.
There is no Christ outside scripture ..... "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".
I disagree wholeheartedly. Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture. It’s the other way around. Scripture exists ‘because of’ Jesus. “Word" in this instance is a translation of the Greek λόγος (logos), and is widely interpreted as referring to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter. “And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us.”
Originally Posted by SuperCub
Anyone who would say otherwise worships themselves instead, which is of course, idolatry.
Wrong. Some people clearly worship a book...which ‘is’ idolatry. And some people worship Jesus. And those who worship a book castigate those who worship Jesus because they worship Jesus instead of worshipping a book.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Organized religion is to blame for this. All the scandals etc. Mix religion and money and it’s a downward spiral.
My faith is between me and God. I don’t need to go to church for reassurance like most.
Happy Easter to all.
Carry on...
This man has the answer.
sometimes I put on a religious show on tv for the fun of it.....it is disgusting what the preachers say and how they act
asking for money so they can upgrade their jets....you now so they can spread the gospel and not have to fly with demons and all that.....if there is a hell thats where they need to be.....
organized religion is the biggest scam going.......bob ...
That is a sick and sad entertainment and it is “organized religion”. It just ain’t Christianity.
not sick and sad...just now and then gives one great insight......so who is right and has the true way.....Mormons...Catholics ....etc.....everybody thinks their way is the right way..
bob
....
I’ve not met many people who are honest enough to be self critical to the point of questioning the foundation of their belief. That’s unfortunate because to do so with honesty should leave a person with the comfort of knowing that they will come back to what they presently believe if it is indeed true. They may come back in part or whole or may be taken in a different direction.
Organizations do the same thing and die on hills not worth fighting for. When a person starts to get over their unwillingness or fear of the unknown concerning beliefs they can become objective rather than dogmatic. That can lead to a discovery of what is really true. I personally don’t believe in multiple truths and multiple paths.
Another obstacle that I see in professed Christians is a self imposed stupidity about what they believe. It seems that there is a tendency for people to spew cliches and holy talk. That doesn’t really help anyone and makes the babbler look like a dunce.
I think that there is objectivity to the Christian religion. Much more so than will be heard from the average Christian who has distilled the faith down to a subjective personal experience.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
He could have angels piss messages in the snow but there is little evidence of that.
Antlers. It’s been fun but you’ve given me all that I need to understand. You obviously can’t or won’t explain your views other than vague generalities that are no different from that the claims that pagan religions make.
Then it should be no problem for you to provide examples of these pagan religions that you’ve mentioned above that have a one on one relationship with the Creator of the universe, that have a one on one relationship with a resurrected Savior, who takes an active (and interactive) role in their lives, who has extended grace to them and all that is required of them is to accept that grace so they can spend eternity with their Creator and Savior, that makes their lives better (and makes them better at life), who promises to walk through this life with them, who is the very definition of love itself, who promises to ease their burdens, and who actually gave His life because of the love that He has for His followers.
Originally Posted by IZH27
It’s worth considering that this type vague subjectivity is widespread within modern Christianity and a reality that fuels the unbelief of many. If subjective religion is all that we offer what benefit is that to anyone. Christianity above all other religions is objective.
No offense, but you do come across as being in an emotional desert and of being spiritually dry. You clearly struggle with things that people who are confident of their Savior and confident of their relationship with Him do not struggle with. Anybody who reads these threads knows that I’m pretty open and willing to share my views. I’ve been far more open sharing my views than you have. By far. Your evasiveness and redirecting is obvious, not only on this thread, but on others of this nature as well. And it’s been pointed out by others. It’s OK with me for you to continue to believe whatever you choose to believe. You clearly don’t like my specific views because they don’t fit within the confines of your chosen framework of legalism.
I’m not sure how you reached any of these conclusions but none of them are accurate.
What is the last thing that God Told you and how did that knowledge come to you. If that’s real and what God does I’d like to participate.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
The Word is the benchmark. He is bound by His Word to us and is a lamp onto our feet. Without that, we have no constant.
If God "says" anything to you that does not line up with the Word, it is false. To believe otherwise is where false doctrines come from for proud men with ticklish ears.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
Originally Posted by antlers
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
There is no Christ outside scripture ..... "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".
I disagree wholeheartedly. Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture. It’s the other way around. Scripture exists ‘because of’ Jesus. “Word" in this instance is a translation of the Greek λόγος (logos), and is widely interpreted as referring to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter. “And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us.”
I agree with that, but I didn't say "Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture.". In the beginning was the Word .... And the Word (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
Originally Posted by antlers
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
Originally Posted by SuperCub
The Word is the benchmark.
Jesus is the benchmark.
The Word is what we physically have in our hand so we can understand God/Jesus and what He has done for us and thus is our benchmark. Twist and re-word all you like. Without the Word of God, we have nothing that is a sure thing.
There is no Christ outside scripture ..... "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".
I disagree wholeheartedly. Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture. It’s the other way around. Scripture exists ‘because of’ Jesus. “Word" in this instance is a translation of the Greek λόγος (logos), and is widely interpreted as referring to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter. “And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us.”
I agree with that, but I didn't say "Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture.". In the beginning was the Word .... And the Word (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us.
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. I agree with that. The “Word” in John 1:1 is Jesus. It’s not scripture, and it’s not the Bible. Scripture didn’t exist “In the beginning...”. The Bible didn’t exist “In the beginning...”. Jesus ‘did’ exist “In the beginning...”.
What Does Declining Church Attendance Mean for Our Society?
Well if we just read a few history books about how communism/Socialism (or any other label you want to place on it) you can see exactly what declining church attendance means. The reason it's declined is we as the older generation allowed and turned a blind eye on the brain washing of the mid and young generations about true science and true history, and allowed the communist to school out kids. So now there is no reason they can see why going to church is important. It's no accident. "Professing themselves to be wise, they made themselves fools."
What does it mean? It means the same thing it meant for every communist country in the last 100 years. It means we loose, but not through conquest.
We lose to Satan through laziness and selfishness mixed with cowardice.
The fools, wise in their own eyes, will tell themselves (and all others that they can get to listen to them) that "We are not like all those other nations and we'll be different."
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
Originally Posted by antlers
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
Originally Posted by SuperCub
The Word is the benchmark.
Jesus is the benchmark.
The Word is what we physically have in our hand so we can understand God/Jesus and what He has done for us and thus is our benchmark. Twist and re-word all you like. Without the Word of God, we have nothing that is a sure thing.
I agree that without Jesus, we have nothing that is a sure thing. Jesus is a sure thing.
There is no Christ outside scripture ..... "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".
I disagree wholeheartedly. Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture. It’s the other way around. Scripture exists ‘because of’ Jesus. “Word" in this instance is a translation of the Greek λόγος (logos), and is widely interpreted as referring to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter. “And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us.”
I agree with that, but I didn't say "Jesus does not exist ‘because of’ scripture.". In the beginning was the Word .... And the Word (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us.
In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. I agree with that. The “Word” in John 1:1 is Jesus. It’s not scripture, and it’s not the Bible. Scripture didn’t exist “In the beginning...”. The Bible didn’t exist “In the beginning...”. Jesus ‘did’ exist “In the beginning...”.
OK ... I see what you are trying to get this old head to understand.
God speaks to us through his Word, plain and simple.
Originally Posted by antlers
But that is certainly not the only way. He can reveal Himself to us by any means He chooses. The Creator and Savior of the world is not bound by the covers of a book.
Originally Posted by SuperCub
The Word is the benchmark.
Jesus is the benchmark.
The Word is what we physically have in our hand so we can understand God/Jesus and what He has done for us and thus is our benchmark. Twist and re-word all you like. Without the Word of God, we have nothing that is a sure thing.
You and I diverge there. You cannot fully have Christ without the Word to help you understand/worship/love/teach Christ.
I disagree. Wholeheartedly. Christianity made great strides during the nearly 300 years before the Bible even existed. It’s OK with me that you and I see things differently regarding this matter. Our divergence here in no way diminishes the reality of Jesus and His resurrection. Some seem to think that Christianity depends upon the Bible. I don’t. Christianity birthed the Bible. Christianity would still be true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.
You and I diverge there. You cannot fully have Christ without the Word to help you understand/worship/love/teach Christ.
I disagree. Wholeheartedly. Christianity made great strides during the nearly 300 years before the Bible even existed. It’s OK with me that you and I see things differently regarding this matter. Our divergence here in no way diminishes the reality of Jesus and His resurrection.
People supposedly on the same team can't even agree on what things mean.
Kinda like people on the same team regarding politics, or people on the same team regarding economics...or people on the same team regarding pretty much anything else. Different people sometimes see things differently...even people on the same team. There’s nothing wrong with that. At all. We’re not all a bunch of stamped out cookie cutter automatons. Diversity and disagreements within the body of believers has existed since its inception.
Does Satan speak to people much in the same way as God? If so, how do we know the difference?
Discernment.
Using what as a standard?
Why do you think there has to be a “standard”...? If you lack wisdom and discernment regarding something and you seek it, you can simply ask God for it, and He’ll generously provide it. That’s a promise. Do you not have confidence in that...?
Does Satan speak to people much in the same way as God?
If so, how do we know the difference?
That’s a good point. When we leave our understanding to what angels write while pissing in the snow, liver shivers, esoteric and existential experiences we’ve left Christianity in the dust and moved on to something else.
I learned about Jesus from my grandfather when I was a boy.
How did you test what your grandfather taught? How did you know if he was right or wrong?
I was just a boy, you think I should have tested what my grandfather taught me then...? I was just a boy, you think I should have known if my grandfather was right or wrong then...?
Antler playing coy. Go figure.
How is anything one hears concerning Christianity tested?
If you witnessed to a 30 year old man who had never heard the Gospel, how would you instruct him to grow in his knowledge and faith?
Does Satan speak to people much in the same way as God? If so, how do we know the difference?
Discernment.
Using what as a standard?
Why do you think there has to be a “standard”...? If you lack wisdom and discernment regarding something and you seek it, you can simply ask God for it, and He’ll generously provide it. That’s a promise. Do you not have confidence in that...?
Considering that there are people in so-called Christian churches that believe abortion and divorce are OK, no, at least not enough that they can't easily brush it off. Those people have what we refer to as poorly-formed consciences. One of the hallmarks of poorly-formed consciences is that they rely on how things "feel" rather than God-revealed morality. You see this a lot with people that shack-up, apologize for homosexuality, divorce, abortion, etc. It's a hallmark of Leftism.
The way one properly forms their conscience is through scripture and apostolic tradition. When scripture and tradition are brought together in a community you get the additional benefit of social norms. The laws taught in these inform us in love & morality instead of being an end in and of themselves as the people in the Old Testament often thought.
The way one properly forms their conscience is through scripture and apostolic tradition.
The earliest first century Gentile followers of Jesus didn’t have scripture or apostolic tradition. I disagree with what you said above. Wholeheartedly. It’s a completely legalistic viewpoint that you present. If you’re comfortable within those confines (legalism) then have at it.
Why is it such a burr under your saddle for someone to flat-out disagree with you on these matters...? Are you not confident enough in your faith that you can’t tolerate...at all...any divergence from other believers...?
Originally Posted by ctsmith
How is anything one hears concerning Christianity tested?
People who choose to be shackled by legalism and clearly don’t think that God can reveal Himself to them separately on a one on one basis today get all their answers from what He told somebody else 2000 years ago.
Why is it such a burr under your saddle for someone to flat-out disagree with you on these matters...? Are you not confident enough in your faith that you can’t tolerate...at all...any divergence from other believers...?
Originally Posted by ctsmith
How is anything one hears concerning Christianity tested?
People who choose to be shackled by legalism and clearly don’t think that God can reveal Himself to them separately on a one on one basis today get all their answers from what He told somebody else 2000 years ago.
No burr under my saddle, only you playing coy again, and setting up a straw man. Your legalism answer to a question about testing what someone teaches is quite laughable. Its obvious you are the one with a Bible burr.
Again I ask.
If you witnessed to a 30 year old man who had never heard the Gospel, how would you instruct him to test what you taught and how to grow in his knowledge and faith?
Lets suppose you gave the man fictitious information, out of hate. Lets suppose you told him that the Bible says its good to have multiple wives, and its good for him to stick his penis in another man, and its good to stone to death an adulterer. How is he to know if this is truth?
I know its hard for you to recommend the Bible. Lets hear it.
No burr under my saddle, only you playing coy again.
No, you clearly have a burr under your saddle for the very reason that I stated. And, I made it crystal clear I was a boy. You asked how I tested what my grandfather taught ~ and you asked how I knew if he was right or wrong...? Those are ‘not’ things that typically run through the mind of a boy. Your questions seemed purposely brazen and disingenuous.
Originally Posted by ctsmith
If you witnessed to a 30 year old man who had never heard the Gospel, how would you instruct him to grow in his knowledge and faith?
First of all, instructing him to grow in knowledge and faith when he had “never heard the Gospel” is gettin’ more than a little bit ahead of yourself. You gonna go ahead and tell him about predestination and legalistic rules and regulations and rituals as well, even though he’d “never heard the Gospel”...? And I wouldn’t take it upon myself to just try and force my beliefs upon him under the guise of ‘witnessing’. ‘If’ he asked me about it, ‘then’ I’d simply tell him the Gospel, and that’d be it.
Originally Posted by ctsmith
I know its hard for you to recommend the Bible.
You seem angry; why is that...? Another burr under your saddle because someone flat-out disagrees with you on these matters...? So little confidence in your own faith that you can’t tolerate...at all...any divergence from another believer...?
I heard that polish Roman Catholic priest interviewed on the same network at lunch. They'll probably post it tomorrow. It was a little more interesting. He gives a pretty good perspective.
Lets suppose you gave the man fictitious information, out of hate. Lets suppose you told him that the Bible says its good to have multiple wives, and its good for him to stick his penis in another man, and its good to stone to death an adulterer. How is he to know if this is truth?
Well, the Bible does say that King David and King Solomon both had multiple wives. And the Bible does say to stone to death adulterers. It’s pretty common knowledge that the Bible ‘does’ say that. He could even further verify that by lookin’ it up himself (he could even do it online). As for your statement, “and its good for him to stick his penis in another man”...I’ll leave that one with you, it’s author.
Lets suppose you gave the man fictitious information, out of hate. Lets suppose you told him that the Bible says its good to have multiple wives, and its good for him to stick his penis in another man, and its good to stone to death an adulterer. How is he to know if this is truth?
Well, the Bible does say that King David and King Solomon both had multiple wives. And the Bible does say to stone to death adulterers. It’s pretty common knowledge that the Bible ‘does’ say that. He could even further verify that by lookin’ it up himself (he could even do it online). As for your statement, “and its good for him to stick his penis in another man”...I’ll leave that one with you, it’s author.
Exactly my point. Easy to take the Bible out of context and not understand without in depth study. I could witness to the man, point him to the scripture in the Bible I'm holding in my hand that says its good to have multiple wives and stone folks to death, and tell him no need to read the Bible, hell don't ever even open it. God will reveal himself if he needs to.
Exactly my point. Easy to take the Bible out of context and not understand without in depth study.
Except in the case of multiple wives (which you referenced) and stoning (which you referenced), they are not taken out of context, at all. The Bible clearly states that David and Solomon both had multiple wives, no in depth study required. The Bible clearly states to stone to death adulterers, no in depth study required.
Originally Posted by ctsmith
I could witness to the man, point him to the scripture in the Bible I'm holding in my hand, tell him no need to read the Bible, hell don't ever even open it. God will reveal himself if he needs to.
Or you could tell him that the Bible exists ‘because of’ Christianity; and you could tell him that the Bible is ‘not’ the foundation of Christianity. And you could tell him that there were tens of thousands of Christians before there ever was ‘the Bible.’ And you’d be telling him the truth.
There's lots of commands to read the Bible. There's lots of blessings promised to those who read and obey it. There's lots of power available to those believers who apply it. Tomorrow morning I will read John 17 which is the Lord's prayer. Verse 17 Jesus asks the Father,
"17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
If I want to be set apart from that which keeps me from being close to the Lord, then I need God's Word, which is truth.
Time for bed guys. I should get up early to read and study that chapter before mowing the lawn.
Coming from a completely legalistic self-professed ‘Christian’ who evidently doesn’t know what it’s like to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior; who chooses to worship a book and revere rules and regulations and rituals instead of worshipping and revering the Savior Himself. I’m quite certain that if you’d lived 700 years ago and had the ability to burn me at the stake for ‘believing the wrong thing’, you’d do it in a nanosecond.
Coming from a completely legalistic self-professed ‘Christian’ who evidently doesn’t know what it’s like to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior; who chooses to worship a book and revere rules and regulations and rituals instead of worshipping and revering the Savior Himself. I’m quite certain that if you’d lived 700 years ago and had the ability to burn me at the stake for ‘believing the wrong thing’, you’d do it in a nanosecond.
And you know that how? Please feel free to quote anything I've said that leads you to believe this. Maybe that's why you don't need a Bible. You're God!
Coming from a completely legalistic self-professed ‘Christian’ who evidently doesn’t know what it’s like to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior; who chooses to worship a book and revere rules and regulations and rituals instead of worshipping and revering the Savior Himself. I’m quite certain that if you’d lived 700 years ago and had the ability to burn me at the stake for ‘believing the wrong thing’, you’d do it in a nanosecond.
And you know that how?
It’s the way you come across in your completely legalistic posts.
This has been a pretty good thread so far, despite a few unnecessary bumps along the way. My apologies for the role that I played in those unnecessary bumps.
The way one properly forms their conscience is through scripture and apostolic tradition.
The earliest first century Gentile followers of Jesus didn’t have scripture or apostolic tradition. I disagree with what you said above. Wholeheartedly. It’s a completely legalistic viewpoint that you present. If you’re comfortable within those confines (legalism) then have at it.
Yes, they had both. They had the Old Testament, the letters started coming in within 10 or 20 years and, better than those, they had the personal testimony of the Apostles and disciples. The earliest Gentile followers were even brought into the synagogues located beyond Israel at first. If you read the Bible, you'd know this.
My view is not legalistic, and I'll explain why (again). Legalism means the law is an end in itself. Follow the law to the letter, then no matter what your interior is like, you are justified. Non-legalism means that the law is an illumination, a guide for the just and to maintain order among the unjust.
I know you will never be convinced of anything happening outside your head. That may work for you (I doubt it), but it's not viable for future generations.
I know you will never be convinced of anything happening outside your head. That may work for you (I doubt it), but it's not viable for future generations.
Recipe for disaster, obviously. Really not even worth discussing.
If you witnessed to a 30 year old man who had never heard the Gospel, how would you instruct him to grow in his knowledge and faith?
And I wouldn’t take it upon myself to just try and force my beliefs upon him under the guise of ‘witnessing’. ‘If’ he asked me about it, ‘then’ I’d simply tell him the Gospel, and that’d be it.
What parts of the NT would you leave out? Would you leave out almsgiving? That's a rule. What about "Do this in remembrance of me"?
I know you will never be convinced of anything happening outside your head. That may work for you (I doubt it), but it's not viable for future generations.
Recipe for disaster, obviously. Really not even worth discussing.
I’ve been studying Christianity in America for the last sixteen years. Youre statement could be the center piece for an argument for what I’ve found. A few points that stand out from what I’ve learned and the heritage that churches in America draw from can explain the conditions that fostered the OP of this thread.
Most early denominations in America sprang from movements that broke away from the established church. That added a heritage of self definition and reinvention.
As Americans we have a tendency to tear down old things and call them rubbish indiscriminately. Many posts in this thread demonstrate that mindset.
The revivalist movement was heretical. Charles Finney lied to gain pastorship in the Presbyterian church. Then he went rogue and developed a governmental/legal view of the Christian faith. He denied original sin and took John Wesleys doctrine of Christian perfection to its logical end. The direct result of his influence and the many spin offs resulted in that area of New York State being the seed bed for all of the major faux Christian movements that swept across America in the 1800’s.
That is our heritage. In my opinion we need to adopt the spirit of the Renaissance and reformation and call these religions that front as Christianity exactly what they are. False.
From studies that the Barna Group to what Christian Smith wrote about concerning Moralist Therapeutic Deism we can see the result of how these influences have gutted any objectivity concerning the faith and replaced it with emotionalism.
It’s no wonder that young people leave the church in America. It’s no wonder that the atheists and agnostics laugh at Christians and Christianity on these threads.
This thread demonstrates everything that is wrong with the American church. We have Gnosticism, Spiritualism, Mysticism, Rank Fetid Moralism and objectively ignorant cliche Christianity (I’m a good person) attaching false orthodoxy to the name of Christ. Just name the name of Jesus and we are all good and all the same no matter what we believe. It’s like Rodney King united the Christian faith under his cry “can’t we all just get along” at the cost of truth.
In respect to demonstrating those things this thread is wonderful.
It all boils down to humanity doing what we've always done - doing what we think is right and what we think God wants instead of what God tells us is right and tells us He wants.
It’s OK to disagree. The early church leaders had theological disagreements among themselves and it led to the 1st Church Council of Jerusalem. Their theological disagreements in no way diminished the Gospel.
Jews considered Gentiles (anyone not a Jew) to be unclean. Gentiles were well aware of this. The earliest Gentile Christians had no scripture at all. None of the Christian scriptures had been written yet, and the Jewish scriptures meant nothing to the Gentiles. The Apostolic Tradition hadn't even been comprised yet, so they didn’t have that either. The earliest Gentile Christians had no scripture and they had no Apostolic Tradition. All they had was the Gospel, as told to them by someone else. You disagree. That’s fine. Our disagreement on this matter doesn’t diminish the Gospel in any way.
If you witnessed to a 30 year old man who had never heard the Gospel, how would you instruct him to grow in his knowledge and faith?
Originally Posted by antlers
First of all, instructing him to grow in knowledge and faith when he had “never heard the Gospel” is gettin’ more than a little bit ahead of yourself. And I wouldn’t take it upon myself to just try and force my beliefs upon him under the guise of ‘witnessing’. ‘If’ he asked me about it, ‘then’ I’d simply tell him the Gospel, and that’d be it.
Originally Posted by Tyrone
What parts of the NT would you leave out? Would you leave out almsgiving? That's a rule. What about "Do this in remembrance of me"?
Again, ‘if’ he’d “never heard the Gospel,” and ‘if’ he asked me about the Gospel, ‘then’ I’d simply tell him the Gospel, and that’d be it.
I don't think we will see that revival. Sodom & Gomorrah did not get their revival either. God just let them go their own way which is were we are now.
That is our heritage. In my opinion we need to adopt the spirit of the Renaissance and reformation and call these religions that front as Christianity exactly what they are. False.
Mind giving us a list of the denominations you consider false?
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Let's take a look at the countries with highest Church attendance.
1. Nigeria. 2. Zambia 3. Haiti 4. Tanzania 5. Central African Republic 6. Chad 7. Liberia 8. Mozambique 9. Uganda 10. Kenya 11. Ethiopia 12. Cameroon 13. Guatemala 14. Democratic Republic of the Congo 15. Rwanda
The first civilized country on the list is Japan, at 50% of the population who attends at least weekly.
Since you believe Church attendance makes people behave so well, let me know which of those 15 countries listed above you will move to and leave you door unlocked at night.
That is our heritage. In my opinion we need to adopt the spirit of the Renaissance and reformation and call these religions that front as Christianity exactly what they are. False.
Mind giving us a list of the denominations you consider false?
Not Publicly AS. Keyboards would stick to fingers from the heat of typing if I did.
It isn’t hard figure out a bunch of them based on my comments in that post. All that is needed is to Wikipedia Aimee Semple McPherson and the people that influenced her.
With all due respect look up a few articles on Charles Finney and revivalism. Such meeting make a lot of people feel warm fuzzies but they are utterly. The whole concept of revivals is arguably satanic.
Plus we are in the end times. The flow of history is tough to overcome.
End times?
Christians been claiming that for 2000 years.
Yes, the prophesy that I pay attention to says we are at the start of the end times. They could last another year or a 1,000. We aren't privy to that info.
I get it, it's tough to know. I'm sure people thought the Black Plague or 536AD was the end of the World too. And it's not like it's demarcated by one event. And the events may not even be centered around "us".
Look, if someone was kidnapped, and forced to attend a church, I doubt if anything good would happen. The person needs to want to attend.
In the Middle Ages the church dominated almost every aspect of European life. Going to church then wasn’t voluntary (neither was tithing), people were forced to go to church (and forced to tithe), it was mandatory. The church condoned feudalism...a kind of institutionalized slavery...where the subjugated peasantry did all of the hard labor. For this 90% of the population life was pretty miserable. Most kids died before adulthood, punishments for the poor were very harsh, people worked the land hoping only to survive another season...or day. Life for the vast majority was a dreary existence. Entire communities dedicated generations of their resources to build huge awe inspiring cathedrals with stained glass, statues, pulpits, and guilted altarpieces...and Europe’s faithful masses paid the price for all of it. You can still see much of it to this day. Once a week these illiterate peasants would walk into these churches and be told what to believe. If they questioned any of it, or believed the wrong thing, they could be excommunicated (damned to hell). They could even be executed.
Look, if someone was kidnapped, and forced to attend a church, I doubt if anything good would happen. The person needs to want to attend.
In the Middle Ages the church dominated almost every aspect of European life. Going to church then wasn’t voluntary (neither was tithing), people were forced to go to church (and forced to tithe), it was mandatory. The church condoned feudalism...a kind of institutionalized slavery...where the subjugated peasantry did all of the hard labor. For this 90% of the population life was pretty miserable. Most kids died before adulthood, punishments for the poor were very harsh, people worked the land hoping only to survive another season...or day. Life for the vast majority was a dreary existence. Entire communities dedicated generations of their resources to build huge awe inspiring cathedrals with stained glass, statues, pulpits, and guilted altarpieces...and Europe’s faithful masses paid the price for all of it. You can still see much of it to this day. Once a week these illiterate peasants would walk into these churches and be told what to believe. If they questioned any of it, or believed the wrong thing, they could be excommunicated (damned to hell). They could even be executed.
Yep.
Those medieval church services sure were good for everyone.
Look, if someone was kidnapped, and forced to attend a church, I doubt if anything good would happen. The person needs to want to attend.
In the Middle Ages the church dominated almost every aspect of European life. Going to church then wasn’t voluntary (neither was tithing), people were forced to go to church (and forced to tithe), it was mandatory. The church condoned feudalism...a kind of institutionalized slavery...where the subjugated peasantry did all of the hard labor. For this 90% of the population life was pretty miserable. Most kids died before adulthood, punishments for the poor were very harsh, people worked the land hoping only to survive another season...or day. Life for the vast majority was a dreary existence. Entire communities dedicated generations of their resources to build huge awe inspiring cathedrals with stained glass, statues, pulpits, and guilted altarpieces...and Europe’s faithful masses paid the price for all of it. You can still see much of it to this day. Once a week these illiterate peasants would walk into these churches and be told what to believe. If they questioned any of it, or believed the wrong thing, they could be excommunicated (damned to hell). They could even be executed.
Religion's main purpose has historically been to maintain the social strata and keep people in their place. This has been true all over the world. India is not near about the only place with a caste system. Thanks to our founding documents in this country religious domination of society has been kept to a minimum. We should be very glad of that now that some pretty intolerant religious adherents are immigrating to this country. I can promise you we do NOT need religion involved in our public schools and government institutions.
In the Middle Ages the church dominated almost every aspect of European life. Going to church then wasn’t voluntary (neither was tithing), people were forced to go to church (and forced to tithe), it was mandatory. The church condoned feudalism...a kind of institutionalized slavery...where the subjugated peasantry did all of the hard labor.
I am sure that there were many actual slave owners in the American colonies and, later, states who were well respected members of their bible based churches.
1. Nigeria. 2. Zambia 3. Haiti 4. Tanzania 5. Central African Republic 6. Chad 7. Liberia 8. Mozambique 9. Uganda 10. Kenya 11. Ethiopia 12. Cameroon 13. Guatemala 14. Democratic Republic of the Congo 15. Rwanda
The first civilized country on the list is Japan, at 50% of the population who attends at least weekly.
Since you believe Church attendance makes people behave so well, let me know which of those 15 countries listed above you will move to and leave you door unlocked at night.
Excuse me but those are NOT the countries with the highest church attendance. They are the countries with the highest proportion of Christians attending church.
1. Nigeria. 2. Zambia 3. Haiti 4. Tanzania 5. Central African Republic 6. Chad 7. Liberia 8. Mozambique 9. Uganda 10. Kenya 11. Ethiopia 12. Cameroon 13. Guatemala 14. Democratic Republic of the Congo 15. Rwanda
The first civilized country on the list is Japan, at 50% of the population who attends at least weekly.
Since you believe Church attendance makes people behave so well, let me know which of those 15 countries listed above you will move to and leave you door unlocked at night.
Excuse me but those are NOT the countries with the highest church attendance. They are the countries with the highest proportion of Christians attending church.
Change it to country wide worship and the results are not much different:
In the Middle Ages the church dominated almost every aspect of European life. Going to church then wasn’t voluntary (neither was tithing), people were forced to go to church (and forced to tithe), it was mandatory. The church condoned feudalism...a kind of institutionalized slavery...where the subjugated peasantry did all of the hard labor.
I am sure that there were many actual slave owners in the American colonies and, later, states who were well respected members of their bible based churches.
Without a doubt. And I’m sure they were well respected adherents of the orthodoxy as well.
Incidentally, there was even a slave Bible that was published in the 1800’s. It was used to teach slaves how to read and it was used to teach slaves the message of Christianity, and to convert them to Christianity. But they removed any part of the Bible that undermined the legitimacy of slavery. They took out the whole Exodus story about the Hebrew people throwing off captivity and migrating to the promised land.
Did the slave owners who believed in Jesus wind up in a better place than the non-believing, non-slave owning people who did really good deeds but could not wrap their brains around 1800+ year old code words?
Coming from a completely legalistic self-professed ‘Christian’ who evidently doesn’t know what it’s like to have a living vibrant relationship with a living resurrected Savior; who chooses to worship a book and revere rules and regulations and rituals instead of worshipping and revering the Savior Himself. I’m quite certain that if you’d lived 700 years ago and had the ability to burn me at the stake for ‘believing the wrong thing’, you’d do it in a nanosecond.
And you know that how?
It’s the way you come across in your completely legalistic posts.
Just in case you don't know it, Jesus legalistically obeyed the Father.
Did the slave owners who believed in Jesus wind up in a better place than the non-believing, non-slave owning people who did really good deeds but could not wrap their brains around 1800+ year old code words?
Good question. On one hand, God’s grace is unearnable. “Really good deeds” doesn’t earn one eternity with God. On the other hand, strict adherence to orthodoxy and legalism often replace love, and are counted as godliness by many. The Pharisees were good examples of this. They strictly abided by all the laws and traditions and doctrines and practices, but they had filthy hearts...and Jesus called them out on it.
Jesus consistently prioritized people over His own religion...including its doctrines and practices and laws and traditions. The religious leaders...who considered themselves to be godly ‘because’ they abided by the doctrines and practices and laws and traditions...prioritized religion.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
Apparently you don't "got it". How can the non believing man go somewhere that doesn't exist (to him)?
True story. I was at a church where the pastor was making a point. Said old Miss Mable could cook 1000 meals for the needy, could have perfect attendance at church since she was 5 years old, and those works alone will send her straight to hell. Old Miss Mable got up and walked out of church.
Jesus consistently prioritized people over His own religion...including its doctrines and practices and laws and traditions. The religious leaders...who considered themselves to be godly ‘because’ they abided by the doctrines and practices and laws and traditions...prioritized religion.
Actually this isn’t quite accurate.
Jesus consistently showed that the religious leaders cynically manipulated doctrines and practices to shift goal posts in their favor. In doing so they acted as gods unto themselves rewriting His law and deceiving themselves into believing they were righteous when they weren’t. The law was written to reveal to us our sin and inability to be saved apart from grace and by their redefinition were deluded.
Christ Himself, however, observed His religion perfectly because His law keeping was centered around the letter and spirit of the law. He never violated Gods law but pointed out how Pharisees had perverted it even as they claimed to protect it.
I think it’s accurate. Time after time, Jesus prioritized people...and it put Him at odds...with the religious leaders who prioritized religion. “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath”...! It’s not like God had a bunch of rules and needed to create some people to keep em’. The law was for people, not the other way around. Jesus didn’t die for a bunch of rules and regulations, He died for people. Jesus didn’t die for the Mosaic law, He died for the lawless. Jesus didn’t die for doctrines and traditions and practices, He died for those who broke them. Jesus didn’t die for His religion, He died for us. I have no doubt that people are more important than His religion because His view of people was ‘defined by’ His view from a blood-stained cross that He hung from. You disagree. That’s fine. Our disagreement on this matter doesn’t diminish the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Let's take a look at the countries with highest Church attendance.
1. Nigeria. 2. Zambia 3. Haiti 4. Tanzania 5. Central African Republic 6. Chad 7. Liberia 8. Mozambique 9. Uganda 10. Kenya 11. Ethiopia 12. Cameroon 13. Guatemala 14. Democratic Republic of the Congo 15. Rwanda
The first civilized country on the list is Japan, at 50% of the population who attends at least weekly.
Since you believe Church attendance makes people behave so well, let me know which of those 15 countries listed above you will move to and leave you door unlocked at night.
I do not consider any of the places you have named as "our" society.
Your incessant animus toward Christianity has long worn thin.
Jesus didn’t die for a bunch of rules and regulations, He died for people. Jesus didn’t die for the Mosaic law, He died for the lawless. Jesus didn’t die for doctrines and traditions and practices, He died for those who broke them. Jesus didn’t die for His religion, He died for us. I have no doubt that people are more important than His religion because His view of people was ‘defined by’ His view from a blood-stained cross that He hung from. You disagree. That’s fine. Our disagreement on this matter doesn’t diminish the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
I actually agree with you on what you say above.
I don’t think we’re connecting but ok I know you have the impression that a high view of the law is antithetical to the Gospel.
Haven't read the whole thread, didn't want to go down that rabbit hole again. But to opine on the original question, the decline in church attendance can mean nothing good for our society. When I was growing up, it seemed just about everyone attended church and society was on the whole much more well-behaved and civil. Being in church made you part of a community, and there were behavioral expectations that one felt compelled to meet; a sort of peer pressure, if you will. I am sure there were some, perhaps many, who simply warmed the pews and whose behavior outside of church was, shall we say, less than exemplary. But the church served to keep a lid on the sinful impulses that we all have. That lid, to the extent that it is still in place, is not as tight as it used to be and we see the result everywhere around us. And I do believe that regular church attendance might eventually have brought some into a real belief in Christ. It did for me.
I am not saying that just because someone doesn't attend church they are a bad person; I am saying that in my opinion the more people that a society has attending church, the fewer bad people it will have.
Let's take a look at the countries with highest Church attendance.
1. Nigeria. 2. Zambia 3. Haiti 4. Tanzania 5. Central African Republic 6. Chad 7. Liberia 8. Mozambique 9. Uganda 10. Kenya 11. Ethiopia 12. Cameroon 13. Guatemala 14. Democratic Republic of the Congo 15. Rwanda
The first civilized country on the list is Japan, at 50% of the population who attends at least weekly.
Since you believe Church attendance makes people behave so well, let me know which of those 15 countries listed above you will move to and leave you door unlocked at night.
I do not consider any of the places you have named as "our" society.
Your incessant animus toward Christianity has long worn thin.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things. Point of the matter is, there is a correlation between Church attendance and measures of well being, but it's a NEGATIVE correlation. In general, the more fundamentalist a society or group of people, the worse the outcomes for measures of well being.
If you took a careful look at the list above, you would notice they are not all Christian majority nations. Some are such a Rwanda were the genocide was preached for the pulpits of the Catholic Churches, but some are not, such as Ethiopia and Nigeria. Bottom line is, more people in church does not benefit the general populace.
antelope_sniper "...more people in church does not benefit the general populace." The Jesus I know of and have read of seemed to have the most issues with "people in church". Way more than he did with the common folk trying to get by. We hear from a lot of self assured folks on this forum that will assert they are going to eternal bliss based on a deluded man's interpretation of Jesus' doctrine. A doctrine of salvation that Jesus himself is not recorded endorsing. This coming from writings that claim 3 different versions of a secret meeting out on a deserted road and also claim a trip to 3rd heaven.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
To me, slave owning ‘Christians’ were hypocrites to the Nth degree. But many people...throughout history...have used scripture to justify their behavior. People have hated other people with a Bible verse, people have persecuted other people with a Bible verse, people have enslaved other people with a Bible verse, people have bigotry towards other people with a Bible verse, and when somebody confronts them they actually have a verse from the Bible with which they've found a way to disregard and mistreat the people for whom Jesus died...! Give em' a minute and they'll find a Biblical justification for just about any behavior they want. That's what some 'Christians' do. They've taken the Bible and they've twisted it to empower them to do the very opposite of what Jesus commanded them to do. “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By ‘this’ all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” Kinda hard to twist that. And regarding God’s grace, accepting His grace is supremely important...first and foremost, regardless of anything else, no matter what. That’s what we ‘have to’ do if we want to spend eternity with Him. Extending grace to others is extremely important too. We are most like Jesus when we are extending grace to others. Grace...relationally...is likely the solution to just about everything.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
One cannot separate the Word of God from God and expect to fully know God. Such is to open ourselves up to false beliefs that we make up in the vacuum and thus will cause the Church to decline.
Revelation 19:9 - John claimed "These are true words of God".
even the religious guys on here cant agree with each other.....
Kinda like people on the same team regarding politics, or people on the same team regarding economics...or people on the same team regarding pretty much anything else. Different people sometimes see things differently...even people on the same team. There’s nothing wrong with that. At all. We’re not all a bunch of stamped out cookie cutter automatons. Diversity and disagreements within the body of believers has existed since its inception.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
True story. I was at a church where the pastor was making a point. Said old Miss Mable could cook 1000 meals for the needy, could have perfect attendance at church since she was 5 years old, and those works alone will send her straight to hell. Old Miss Mable got up and walked out of church.
This is the stumbling stone, it's what folks can't swallow because of pride. It's self righteousness. Man wants to think he can attain salvation by works. Church attendance, long prayers, Bible reading, alms to the poor, tithes, all are good things. The only work that can allow us to attain eternal life has already been done by Jesus. If we stop comparing ourselves to others, & compare ourselves to Jesus then we clearly see we'll never match up. We need his righteousness, which comes by sincere faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Men make it so complicated when it's so simple. Jesus said seek & you will find. Searching God's word with a sincerity of heart, laying aside all pride & a man's life will eternally be changed.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
Apparently you don't "got it". How can the non believing man go somewhere that doesn't exist (to him)?
The mere fact that I have a hard time wrapping my head around a concept does not necessarily make it untrue.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
TYG, Sure I provided data at the country level, but correlation does not stop there. Within the U.S. when you break the data down at the state level, the same correlation exists. As an example, the more religious a state the higher the teenage pregnancy rate and the lower the per capita incomes.
Did the slave owners who believed in Jesus wind up in a better place than the non-believing, non-slave owning people who did really good deeds but could not wrap their brains around 1800+ year old code words?
Exodus 21:
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
Not only does the bible condone slavery, it even condones beating your slaves, so long as it takes a couple of days for them to die.
So the non-believing, non-slave owning, good deed person definitely goes to hell but the slave owning believer, who was welcomed by the church, may or may not. Better odds owning slaves. Got it.
What is wrong with owning slaves? Why would the slave owner be less deserving of his heavenly reward?
Most of the notables in the OT were slave owners. Even when not actually recognized as slaves, peasants were chattel to be used by and traded among the nobility, up until a very few hundred years ago. Nobility definitely included the priesthood of every major religion on every continent.
Is there a real difference between a slave owner and a King or priest running around the kingdom lopping the heads from miscreants and deflowering 13 year old virgins as the whim strikes?
I think there is a difference, with the benefit going to the slave owner, as long as he was a benevolent master.
Did the plantation owner keep families together? Did he educate the children? Did he keep his slaves well fed, well clothed, warm, and comfortable? Did he instill in them a sense of accomplishment and pride in work performed?
Many, some say most, in the American South were good Christian men who did so.
Of course over the course of history, time, and geography, there have been many who treated slaves of all colors as sexual playthings, or beasts of burden to be discarded as their usefulness expired.
And there is no denying the horrid conditions of the trans-atlantic slave transport ships where a high percentage of the cargo died and was tossed overboard. Or the cruelty of the black slave traders in Africa raiding villages and driving their captives to the coast for sale and transport.
Point being, many plantation owners were good and benevolent men, who did well consider the welfare of their slave property. Just as I consider the welfare of my dog, horse, or cow. Just as the OT Kings considered the welfare of their peasant tribe.
Did the slave owners who believed in Jesus wind up in a better place than the non-believing, non-slave owning people who did really good deeds but could not wrap their brains around 1800+ year old code words?
Exodus 21:
20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
Not only does the bible condone slavery, it even condones beating your slaves, so long as it takes a couple of days for them to die.
One of my issues is that people can find a quote in the Bible to justify anything, which I suspect is your point. I_S went with it.
One of my issues is that people can find a quote in the Bible to justify anything,...
Yep. They cherry-pick.
People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive. - Blaise Pascal
And then they go looking for reasons to substantiate their belief.
They can actually justify their behavior by using the words of God to devalue people bearing the image of God...people whom God loves...people for whom Jesus died.
One cannot separate the Word of God from God and expect to fully know God.
When “the Word” is interpreted as referring to Jesus...as it is in John 1:1...I agree with you. Wholeheartedly.
When I said the word "Word" I was not referring to John 1:1, but was referring to the Bible as a whole.
I know. And as you pointed out earlier, you and I diverge on this matter, to which I concurred. We disagree on this matter. That’s fine. Our disagreement doesn’t diminish the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
One cannot separate the Word of God from God and expect to fully know God.
When “the Word” is interpreted as referring to Jesus...as it is in John 1:1...I agree with you. Wholeheartedly.
When I said the word "Word" I was not referring to John 1:1, but was referring to the Bible as a whole.
I know. And as you pointed out earlier, you and I diverge on this matter, to which I concurred. We disagree on this matter. That’s fine. Our disagreement doesn’t diminish the Gospel in any way whatsoever.
How do you separate Christ from the Bible? Is the Bible not the infallible word of God for our direction?
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
TYG, Sure I provided data at the country level, but correlation does not stop there. Within the U.S. when you break the data down at the state level, the same correlation exists. As an example, the more religious a state the higher the teenage pregnancy rate and the lower the per capita incomes.
Nice try, but those statistics, if true, mean nothing and you know it. To be valid, they'd have to compare teenage pregnancy rates or per capita income between the churched and un-churched. Even that would not suffice, you'd really need to have comparative behavioral profiles across peoples' entire lives. A churched, unwed teenage mother might, as a result of her upbringing, live the remainder of her life in a way that is pleasing to God. An un-churched one might become a Christian despite not having been raised in church. And since when has income become a measure of good or bad behavior?
Your post was simply more distraction and deflection.
The men and women who actually knew Jesus personally and chose to follow Him...Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Andrew, Mary, Martha, and Paul...the men and women whose faith laid the groundwork for the evangelization of the entire world, did so without the Bible. They received salvation without the Bible. As did many, many followers of Jesus who came after them. The Bible didn’t even exist until the 4th century. Clearly, Christianity didn’t exist for these people ‘because of’ the Bible. The foundation of their faith, clearly, was not the Bible. The foundation of their faith was an event.
Originally Posted by SuperCub
Is the Bible not the infallible word of God for our direction?
I believe the original writings themselves to be inspired. Is what we have nowadays “infallible”...? It doesn’t matter, because the Bible is not the foundation of Christianity. It wasn’t for the earliest Christians and it’s not nowadays either. The foundation of Christianity is the same event that was the foundation of the faith of the earliest Christians. The resurrection of Jesus is the foundation of Christianity. It always has been. And it always will be.
Without the resurrection, the Bible wouldn’t even exist. Without the resurrection, none of the New Testament documents would have even been written.
The men and women who actually knew Jesus personally and chose to follow Him...Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Andrew, Mary, Martha, and Paul...the men and women whose faith laid the groundwork for the evangelization of the entire world, did so without the Bible. They received salvation without the Bible. As did many, many followers of Jesus who came after them. The Bible didn’t even exist until the 4th century. Clearly, Christianity didn’t exist for these people ‘because of’ the Bible. The foundation of their faith, clearly, was not the Bible. The foundation of their faith was an event.
Originally Posted by SuperCub
Is the Bible not the infallible word of God for our direction?
I believe the original writings themselves to be inspired. Is what we have nowadays “infallible”...? It doesn’t matter, because the Bible is not the foundation of Christianity. It wasn’t for the earliest Christians and it’s not nowadays either. The foundation of Christianity is the same event that was the foundation of the faith of the earliest Christians. The resurrection of Jesus is the foundation of Christianity. It always has been. And it always will be.
Without the resurrection, the Bible wouldn’t even exist. Without the resurrection, none of the New Testament documents would have even been written.
How do you separate Christ from the Bible? Is the Bible not the infallible word of God for our direction?
If not, what is?
I think that Gnosticism is the easiest answer. People who are involved with the New Apostolic Reformation or any of the offshoots believe that they get information directly from God.
Scripture means little to nothing because it is superseded by “new” direct revelation. To proof the “new knowledge” sound doctrine that is seen throughout scripture by systematic study is sacrificed for isolated verses that support the “new truth”.
It’s nothing new and hasn’t gone away. It just has a new name and a new face.
How do you separate Christ from the Bible? Is the Bible not the infallible word of God for our direction?
If not, what is?
I think that Gnosticism is the easiest answer. People who are involved with the New Apostolic Reformation or any of the offshoots believe that they get information directly from God.
Scripture means little to nothing because it is superseded by “new” direct revelation. To proof the “new knowledge” sound doctrine that is seen throughout scripture by systematic study is sacrificed for isolated verses that support the “new truth”.
It’s nothing new and hasn’t gone away. It just has a new name and a new face.
Sounds like a good way of saying "I'll do it my way" no matter what God said. The 1st Adam did the same.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
TYG, Sure I provided data at the country level, but correlation does not stop there. Within the U.S. when you break the data down at the state level, the same correlation exists. As an example, the more religious a state the higher the teenage pregnancy rate and the lower the per capita incomes.
Nice try, but those statistics, if true, mean nothing and you know it. To be valid, they'd have to compare teenage pregnancy rates or per capita income between the churched and un-churched. Even that would not suffice, you'd really need to have comparative behavioral profiles across peoples' entire lives. A churched, unwed teenage mother might, as a result of her upbringing, live the remainder of her life in a way that is pleasing to God. An un-churched one might become a Christian despite not having been raised in church. And since when has income become a measure of good or bad behavior?
Your post was simply more distraction and deflection.
Not at all.
If your hypothesis was true, we'd see the results in the real world. Countries and states with the "most churched" people would demonstrate better markers of well being, but the reality is the exact opposite. Even when we use your method, interview people here in the U.S regarding their churchieness, we get the same results. The more fundamentalist a population, the worse the fair on measures of well being.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
TYG, Sure I provided data at the country level, but correlation does not stop there. Within the U.S. when you break the data down at the state level, the same correlation exists. As an example, the more religious a state the higher the teenage pregnancy rate and the lower the per capita incomes.
Nice try, but those statistics, if true, mean nothing and you know it. To be valid, they'd have to compare teenage pregnancy rates or per capita income between the churched and un-churched. Even that would not suffice, you'd really need to have comparative behavioral profiles across peoples' entire lives. A churched, unwed teenage mother might, as a result of her upbringing, live the remainder of her life in a way that is pleasing to God. An un-churched one might become a Christian despite not having been raised in church. And since when has income become a measure of good or bad behavior?
Your post was simply more distraction and deflection.
Not at all.
If your hypothesis was true, we'd see the results in the real world. Countries and states with the "most churched" people would demonstrate better markers of well being, but the reality is the exact opposite. Even when we use your method, interview people here in the U.S regarding their churchieness, we get the same results. The more fundamentalist a population, the worse the fair on measures of well being.
Since I have already pointed out the fallacy of your rejection of my "hypothesis", we are at an impasse and I see no need to continue to go in the same circle again, as you and I have done before. First you used supposed data from other countries to try to support your animosity towards church/Christianity. When that wouldn't fly and you were forced to bring it back to the U.S., you tried to use state-based "facts" and again, your post wouldn't pass muster. So, now you are claiming that "we" (you) get the same results when comparing the churched and un-churched. If you really had interviews/studies that show what you are saying, you would have led with that two posts ago. In addition, you have gone back to citing countries and states again; you are simply circling back again to the same assertions that have already been shown to be irrelevant. Frankly, I think you are full of it and are making up whatever you think you need to say to support your position. Once again, typical leftist tactics of distraction and deflection, and moving the goal posts as the game is being played; just as you do in every thread that has anything to do with Christianity. Your desperate attempts to undermine Christianity are really quite pathetic.
If your hypothesis was true, we'd see the results in the real world. Countries and states with the "most churched" people would demonstrate better markers of well being, but the reality is the exact opposite. Even when we use your method, interview people here in the U.S regarding their churchieness, we get the same results. The more fundamentalist a population, the worse the fair on measures of well being.
Wealth and socialism kill belief in God. Materialism or the State replace God.
"...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
"Churched" people mean nothing in as far as God's Word is concerned. The most Churched Pharisees and Saducees were rebuked harsher than anyone by Jesus. Jesus was trying to get them saved. Nicodemus sought Him out and was taught very clearly. It would be good for others here to have that attitude. I know you do. Christ is Head of His own Churches, but the unbelievers lump all churches into the save category.
Today's religion is $ and "science" falsely so called.
The most Churched Pharisees and Saducees were rebuked harsher than anyone by Jesus.
And they’d been studying their religion for years and years, and considered themselves learned and educated in their faith more than others, and they also considered themselves better and holier than others because of it and because they believed they adhered strictly to the orthodoxy better than others. And as you said, Jesus put them in their place. Every. Single. Time.
If your hypothesis was true, we'd see the results in the real world. Countries and states with the "most churched" people would demonstrate better markers of well being, but the reality is the exact opposite. Even when we use your method, interview people here in the U.S regarding their churchieness, we get the same results. The more fundamentalist a population, the worse the fair on measures of well being.
Wealth and socialism kill belief in God. Materialism or the State replace God.
"...it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
“You cannot serve both God and money.”
Wealth correlates with Education and IQ, all three of which correlate with lower believes in god(s). As for Socialism killing God, IME Marxism is a religion, so it's the substitution of one theology for another.
That doesn’t necessarily hold true for tremendously wealthy athletes in the NFL, the NBA, or MLB...or for some tremendously wealthy people in the entertainment industry.
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
... which correlates with lower beliefs in god(s).
To many wealthy people, perhaps money ‘is’ their god, perhaps money ‘is’ what they worship. Jesus’ quote that Tyrone posted refers to that.
Sorry to hear that you don't like facts, but they are stubborn things.
I love facts, and the fact is that none of what you have posted that quoted me has anything to do with our society. Your response to my original post was simply the use of the leftist tactic of distract and deflect. When called on that, you refuse to acknowledge it and instead you double down just as any good leftist would.
I have come to believe that you are only a notch or two above the leftists of BLM and Antifa. They seem determined to undermine and destroy the nation that they have been the beneficiary of. Likewise, you seem determined to undermine and destroy the Christian faith, which you, whether you realize it or not, whether you will admit it or not, have been the beneficiary of. This country was founded by men whose minds were steeped in Christianity and the wisdom they had derived in part from that was what led to the form of government and society that you now enjoy.
To some degree, you are just as much a useful idiot of the globalists as are the anarchists of BLM and Antifa.
TYG, Sure I provided data at the country level, but correlation does not stop there. Within the U.S. when you break the data down at the state level, the same correlation exists. As an example, the more religious a state the higher the teenage pregnancy rate and the lower the per capita incomes.
Nice try, but those statistics, if true, mean nothing and you know it. To be valid, they'd have to compare teenage pregnancy rates or per capita income between the churched and un-churched. Even that would not suffice, you'd really need to have comparative behavioral profiles across peoples' entire lives. A churched, unwed teenage mother might, as a result of her upbringing, live the remainder of her life in a way that is pleasing to God. An un-churched one might become a Christian despite not having been raised in church. And since when has income become a measure of good or bad behavior?
Your post was simply more distraction and deflection.
Not at all.
If your hypothesis was true, we'd see the results in the real world. Countries and states with the "most churched" people would demonstrate better markers of well being, but the reality is the exact opposite. Even when we use your method, interview people here in the U.S regarding their churchieness, we get the same results. The more fundamentalist a population, the worse the fair on measures of well being.
Since I have already pointed out the fallacy of your rejection of my "hypothesis", we are at an impasse and I see no need to continue to go in the same circle again, as you and I have done before. First you used supposed data from other countries to try to support your animosity towards church/Christianity. When that wouldn't fly and you were forced to bring it back to the U.S., you tried to use state-based "facts" and again, your post wouldn't pass muster. So, now you are claiming that "we" (you) get the same results when comparing the churched and un-churched. If you really had interviews/studies that show what you are saying, you would have led with that two posts ago. In addition, you have gone back to citing countries and states again; you are simply circling back again to the same assertions that have already been shown to be irrelevant. Frankly, I think you are full of it and are making up whatever you think you need to say to support your position. Once again, typical leftist tactics of distraction and deflection, and moving the goal posts as the game is being played; just as you do in every thread that has anything to do with Christianity. Your desperate attempts to undermine Christianity are really quite pathetic.
There's much about me you miss understand. My concerns are not specifically with Christianity, but with untrue (or believes that cannot be sufficiently demonstrated by evidence) beliefs that lead to suboptimal actions in this world. Sure, elements of Christianity are included within this definition, but the same goes for Islam, Marxism, and the various modern Gaian religions, i.e. "Climate Change".
As far as religions go, Christianity is far from the worst. Some years ago I did a study which left me with a feature rich data set of economic data across international subdivisions that already corrected for education, mineral wealth, quality of human capital, corruption, taxes etc. so I plugged in the religious break down of the various nations and ran the analysis. The results were quite interesting.
Here's the order of per capita GDP based on religion:
1. Atheist 2. Jewish 3. Christian 4. Hinduism 5. Buddhism 6. Islam 7. Folk Religions
Of course, I just measures one aspect, and there many deeper more encompassing studies demonstrating the impacts of religion on wellbeing. One important variable regarding the impact of religions is the level of fundamentalism of it's adherents. As I've said many times here on The Fire, "not all Christianity's are created equal". There's a big difference between someone like the old Scott F who used to frequent the fire, and the Young Earth Creationist, The "Happy Campers", and the Flat Earthers. Yes, the modern flat earth movement is Christian inspired.
For those interested in the an easy read that goes through the academic studies in detail, I recommend Ryan T. Cragun's "What you Don't Know about Religion (but should). He goes through the academic research with all the charts, graphs, and sources and many of these studies focus on the intensity of belief and how it impacts out comes. Spoiler alerts, it's not good for your hypothesis.
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My church is high in the mountains, and other wild country. And it doesn’t have a ceiling. I go all the time.![[Linked Image from hosting.photobucket.com]](https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/oo15/antlers163/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5474_zpssdorhqj2.jpg)
I spent over 4 hours in church today. And covered over 10 miles afoot. Great sermon...!
i told Mom, she said God Bless Joe and you tell him i said Thank You, pretty cool deal i thought.
I wonder if the communities that are routinely served by many churches would agree?
![[Linked Image from quotefancy.com]](https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/968317-Jerry-B-Jenkins-Quote-Christianity-is-not-a-religion-it-s-a.jpg)
![[Linked Image from pewforum.org]](https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/06/PF.06.13.18_religiouscommitment-03-08-.png)
