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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: TF49] #16011996 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by TF49
" ... btw... I fished with a young but pretty much savvy Alaskan who carried a 45 ACP in a chest holster. I asked about his choice of pistols.... He said.... "I can hit with it and will shoot until the bear drops or decides he doesn't want to get shot anymore." He told how his father was walking their dog one afternoon and got attacked by a grizzly..... he killed it with that same pistol. "


Speaking of .45 ACPs and big bears, i'll repeat a story I posted several years ago about same.

Many years ago when I lived in Los Angeles, my wife and I owned a vacation cabin in the Sierra in Tulare County. I came to know an older man who lived up there, who was retired. After WW II he and his wife had gone to Alaska where he was working for one of the logging companies, cruising timber. He and his wife lived in a small cabin out in one of the immense forests. He said this happened in 1948.

He told me he came out of his cabin one morning to go to the wood pile to stoke his stove. Suddenly, a Grizzly came charging around the wood pile at him. He pulled his Colt Govt. Mdl. .45 ACP and shot the bear, killing it just before it reached him.

Somewhat surprised, I asked him why he used a .45 ACP?

He kinda laughed and said, " 'Cause that's all I had."

He showed me an old picture of him beside the dead bear near the wood pile. He had his .45 ACP in hand.

Some would scoff and say, "B.S.! No one could do that under great stress."

Maybe most couldn't. But he had seen a bit of stress before as a paratrooper with the 101st Airborne Div., when he jumped at Normandy, Holland, and fought in the Battle of the Bulge. wink

FWIW.

L.W.


"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: ironbender] #16012035 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Hastings
I'm guessing that if he's close enough for spray you are supper. 12 gauge slugs or heavy rifle bullets at the first sign of trouble might work. I've never had a hostile encounter with a bear but I've seen them cover a good bit of ground pretty fast. I'm betting he can make 15 or 20 feet per second.

A grizzly bears speed is 35 MPH. Phil Shoemaker stopped a grizzly bear charge and killed the bear with a 9mm shooting 147 Buffalo Bore's +P Outdoorsman Ammo

Yeah, but Phil can shoot!

And the bear was after his clients, if I understand his story correctly. Double the reason for your companion to be armed as well and effectively as you


Colossians 3:17 (New King James Version)
"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: wytex] #16012036 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by wytex
Originally Posted by T_Inman
Dude was supposedly an anti bear hunt activist.

I know this was a situation of being too close to a cache, and not just happening onto it but some of the comments here are willfully ignorant. I have been humbled a few times as to how close a grizzly can get before you know he's there. Getting a couple shots off beforehand, even if your rifle is on your body isn't always feasible, if you're ready for it or not.


Got any proof that he was anti bear hunting activist, he was a guide and a hunter from what I find.


No, no proof. Just one of the first articles I had read had mentioned something about it and very possibly could have been bad info. He was a "backcountry guide" according to several articles but I have not read one yet stating that he was a hunter or hunting guide, just a fisherman, hiker, photographer and snowmachine guide.

There are some hunters who are also against hunting grizzly bears...but I suspect they're relatively rare. Nothing suprises me with the fruitloops in Yellowstone area anymore though.



Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16012045 04/20/21
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I hike. Hunt and fish on Kodiak weekly. ( well not in the winter). I carry a gun and sometimes bear spray. One of my buddies won't go unless everyone has spray. He's seen it used effectively before. I've used it on black bears myself. I prefer the comfort of the gun


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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: simonkenton7] #16012326 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by simonkenton7
Originally Posted by 673
When I am out in the bushes, which is everyday, I don't go anywhere without the rifle or 12ga, no bear spray here, although it is a good idea.
A firearm is the only tool that puts you back on top of the food chain, not bear spray.


British Columbia, eh?
I spent a summer way out in the woods in BC, up near Manson Creek. We were riding horses into the wild and camping out. There are lots of grizzlies up there.
We didn't see any thank God all we had was a 20gauge/22 LR over under gun from Savage. We were naive kids from Georgia and lucky not to have a run in with a bear.

Lots of Grizzlies for sure, the black bears probably beat up just as many, if not more people than Grizzlies.

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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: Mule Deer] #16012517 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer

Would the bear have been stopped by bear spray, or the handgun? Dunno--and neither does Phil. But I would bet he has seen far more charging brown bears than anybody who has so far posted on this thread, and also has stopped more of them, not only with a 9mm mini-handgun but rifles from .30-06 up to .505 Gibbs. And bear spray.

His experience not only involves guiding bear hunters, but several months of guiding fishing clients on exactly the sort of bear-crowded, brush-bordered streams I just described If he has enough confidence to carry bear spray, along with a firearm, then I feel kinda okay with doing so too. Which is exactly what I do in Montana--where I've encountered far more grizzlies than most of the posters here.


Thanks for the weigh-in on that, JB. Breath of fresh air amidst all the bloviating here.

Like you, I've encountered far more grizzlies (and blacks) in routine backcountry activities in Alberta and B.C. than most people ever see in a lifetime. I studied under Stephen Herrero at UofC back in the late Triassic period, have worked with and hunted/fished with bear biologists and bear hunters many times. Some of these experienced people believe in and carry bear spray (most do, I'd estimate), and most also believe in and carry firearms when they can.

But the plain fact is that most moderately close bear encounters don't require a gun or a can of spray, just a watchful eye and non-threatening behavior and a healthy dose of animal-sense. This doesn't apply to situations with mama bears with cubs, mating season boars, or carrion/kill defense situations (none of which I've had to deal with) but those are not the majority of bear encounters.

I have carried bear spray since the late 80's in the mountain parks where firearms aren't allowed, never used it, but came close a few times and was glad I had it. I carried a firearm outside of the parks since the late 70's and only used it once, and I'm guessing would probably have been transmogrified into bear scat if I hadn't had it that day. I don't get into bear country much in recent years, but when I do I tend to have both bear spray and a heavy-duty handgun on my belt. When I head to the Bighorns in June for an upcoming flyfishing expedition, that's how I'll ramble, again, as will my wife.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: jwp475] #16012532 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by jwp475


I used a revolver on a bear that came in on a Moose killed and it worked to perfection and only 2 shot required




Thanks for reminding us of that event, John. You are one of 6 people I've spoken to personally who killed charging bears with a handgun. Most recently, my good friend's son killed a grizzly as he and his client were field-dressing a Wyomin elk. He had a S&W 357 Magnum, which many people say isn't adequate for bear defense. In my view it certainly is adequate, as is a 9mm if Phil Shoemaker's example is taken into account.

A very good article was published a year or two ago that showed handguns are indeed highly effective as bear defense weapons. I'll see if I can locate it.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: JeffA] #16012552 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by JeffA


I think what most often skews the opinion of most novices and some that consider themselves experienced or even experts when it comes to Grizzlies is that 99% of their encounters with bears have been in parks or other similar enviroments where the bears have become conditioned to people.

Wild bears don't act like park bears.

In my opinion lower 48 park bears are some of the most dangerous bears on earth because they are totally unpredictable.
They can go from posing for the camera to tearing you a new azz in a heartbeat.

Add a food cache to the picture and there is sure to be an issue.

Majority of the times you have a encounter with a Grizzly the bear has been aware of you long before you became aware of it being in the area. This always gives the bear the upper hand with the encounter, you can bank on that.


Truer words were never spoken. My experience with grizzlies has been pretty benign over the years, but I understand grizzly behavior has changed substantially in areas where they are no longer being hunted (southern Alberta, Montana, and B.C.). I have tended to be more wary of black bears, which have a greater tendency to view humans as prey than grizzlies are.

Last edited by DocRocket; 04/20/21. Reason: added an actual comment...

"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16012610 04/20/21
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Only a 500 S&W handgun can stop a CHARGING GRIZZLY BEAR . Too much adrenaline otherwise



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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16012947 04/20/21
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Do they ignore whitey tighties filled with chit?


Never take life to seriously, after all ,no one gets out of it alive.
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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: DocRocket] #16012975 04/20/21
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I don’t know if I’m bloviating or not but I find the comments interesting. My only experience was seeing one grizzly at a distance while hunting in SW Montana and several over a week in AK years ago. We were caribou hunting in west central AK on the tundra and we saw browns every day near the dense creek bottoms; they seemed very indifferent to us even under a 100 yds. That was in my 340 period and with 250-gr. Partitions I felt fine.
But I do think the Mt-Wy-ID grizzlies are truly a different story if anecdotes and stories of the last decades are any measure.. So to begin with, I’m not even a rank amateur in regard to commenting to others on the best defense in a determined charge scenario.

But as I read of these incidents and others’ experiences, it seems bear spray works “a lot of the times.” And handguns have stopped charges and even killed big bears. Even little handguns have. But all of these also have been carried by people who have been mauled and were killed.

It’s a totally different situation for folks like me as opposed to a Phil S. or other pro’s who by experience over many years can “read” these animals and the scenario in real time. I can barely imagine the immediate terror when in that micro-second you realize that 600-800 lb animal is intent on killing you and is not going to give way. I think all would agree many/most here would be in very serious, serious trouble.

Familiarity may not always breed contempt, but even if it breeds a certain laxness among those in bear country by hunting or fishing alone, it seems to be the first handicap already accepted; maybe not for the pro’s mentioned but it would certainly be for me. Does having a partner help ones chances of survival in a charge? Would bear spray even if unholstered, and pointed right, stop the bear above? The emphasis is on “dependably, all the time.” For me the same would be true of a handgun though I could be persuaded to carry one.

Above, I mentioned a tactical type pump 12-ga loaded with slugs — would the sling hang up on a pack or some other obstruction or could it be brought to engagement on time? For me, the scenario in question is not the most-of-the-time, almost casual, moderate range contact of an indifferent bear who turns away. But the all-in bear that is maybe the one in a hundred or even a thousand. No matter how small the number, we all know we will read of it again.

I know the statistical odds of this happening weighs against the practicality of carrying tiresome extra stuff, more weight, etc. I would bend to suggestions of those who recommend bear spray and carry it but if only for a matter of comfort, I’d go the tact 12-ga route. Not than I can say it is better/best because I don’t know that, but with the little I know and the greater I don’t, it would be the most comforting for me.

Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16013056 04/20/21
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You'll notice in the Jeff A pictures, that bear has a tag. What does that mean? Caught and released. As in got somebody's attention at some point and was hauled off someplace else. As in not scared of humans.

I guess I've noticed about five g-bears within 40 yards of me, four were moving away briskly (yay) while the other was a big sow along the railroad between Essex and Java (I like trains). This was in the early 1980s when bears were pretty thin, but would come to the RR to snack on grain. Anyway, I was moving from one photo spot to another along a little trail, and I saw eyes. There she was, maybe 25 yards, not moving at all, standing in the brush watching me. All I had was the spikes on my tripod, which was in bayonent drill position immediately. So I got side-eyes on her and commenced a retrograde advance, as there hadn't been a cub where I'd just been.

Didn't know my ticker could tick so fast. I went back to the tracks, train went by, I got my train picture, and then tried the trail again while thrashing and yelling, as I needed to get back to my car without walking 12 miles around. Heck no, I didn't even think of taking her picture although I had a big tele.


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Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: BobBrown] #16013145 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by BobBrown
Only a 500 S&W handgun can stop a CHARGING GRIZZLY BEAR . Too much adrenaline otherwise


Where did you come up with this information?


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: BobBrown] #16013208 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by BobBrown
Only a 500 S&W handgun can stop a CHARGING GRIZZLY BEAR . Too much adrenaline otherwise



Good one! TFF

Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: Dave_Skinner] #16013229 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner
I'd carry one crossdraw, or on the weak side.


Like a taser?


Too soon?


Die with memories, not dreams.
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: BobBrown] #16013235 04/20/21
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Originally Posted by BobBrown
Only a 500 S&W handgun can stop a CHARGING GRIZZLY BEAR . Too much adrenaline otherwise



Die with memories, not dreams.
Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: jaguartx] #16013271 04/20/21
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[quote=jaguartx]I wonder how effective it would work on baboons.[/quote
I am sure it’s been used in the hood a few times.

Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16014281 04/21/21
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This Montana Grizzly died of a lower lung shot from a Ruger 41 Blackhawk.

He'd charged a prepared backpacker in Montana's Great Bear Wilderness area.
I skinned him and packed out the hide and skull for Fish and Game.

There was once a time there wasn't so much drama involved with a dead problemed bear like there is now days.

F&G never even came into the woods to investigate or view the scene.

So various sized handguns are capable of killing a charging Grizzly.


[Linked Image]

Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: chlinstructor] #16014293 04/21/21
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Great stories fellas. Its on my bucket list to view a wild grizzly bear.

What's Montana’s endgame with the grizzly population? Or is it the feds that want more grizzlies than game or people?

Re: Major Bear Spray Failure: Carry A Gun !!! [Re: Dave_Skinner] #16014309 04/21/21
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Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner
You'll notice in the Jeff A pictures, that bear has a tag. What does that mean? Caught and released. As in got somebody's attention at some point and was hauled off someplace else. As in not scared of humans.


As you are aware Dave, that tag told the story of this bears antics.

When we went into F&G to apply for the required trophy license they read off his rap sheet to us.

He was a problem bear that had been conditioned to people and had a long history of B&E activity.

That is one of the rewards of having a well managed hunting season for Grizzlies.
Hunters can buy tags and hunt these bears down while generating a positive cash flow for the state.

With the poorly managed bear deal today it cost the state to employ hunters, trackers and trappers to do this job.

It's the reactive instead of proactive show.

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