Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Does size matter? Excellent info here...

I have watched that video several times since it was released. It's good stuff.

For those that cannot take the time to watch it, their main point is: Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles, which of course means that no pistol is an adequate substitute for a rifle, but it also means that means that most pistol cartridges are equally (unequally) effective, among loads that both penetrate and expand. Caliber, bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and energy don't make the difference among handgun cartridges.

I have a hard time accepting that as fact, but I am in no place to argue against it based on my own experience, or lack thereof.

Watched this when it came out. Mostly valid, I think, but I cannot help believing that the stopping power edge still goes to .40 and over vs .355/9mm. Not by much, but possibly, on occasion, when it counts most. I think, for example, that a 230 grain Gold Dot from a .45 will be more likely to produce a quick stop in a determined attacker than a 124 grain Gold Dot 9mm, all other factors (e.g., barrel length) being equal.

If one is observant and shoots enough game, it becomes obvious that larger calibers are higher on the food chain, especially as size of the game increases

A proper bullet and shot placement matter most

I regularly shoot plates. I’ve used a 22lr.,22magnum, 380, 9mm, 38special ,40 and 45. If you only shoot at paper targets you can’t tell any difference. But you can tell the authority in which each different caliber knocks over the plates
Hasbeen

I can see the physical reaction when I hit a deer in the rib cage with a 45ACP +P that I can't see with the 9mm +P with the same hit in the rib cage

Well, there you go. Makes intuitive sense, also.

I remember a few years after the military switched to 9mm from 45's as a service weapons, troops were complaining that the 9 did not have the stopping power as the 45. I think I would put more credence in those troops than anyone

When shooting modern JHP the 9mm is much closer than when both the 45 and 9mm are shooting ball ammo

.45 JHP expands larger than does 9mm JHP.

Expansion is close, but what is over looked is that enough is enough. If a quarter size hole through the heart brings the blood pressure instantly to zero, a silver dollar size hole can't bring the blood oressure down faster

The 45 IMHO is higher on the food chain, but is it enough higher to give up the added magazine capacity of the 9mm?

I accept that that's a perfectly reasonable position/argument.
I mostly carry 9mm, mainly with that point in mind, in fact. Although, when I carry .45, I must admit to feeling more comforted in the effectiveness of each individual round.

I agree with much or all above......

The thing you catch in the video, that one guy mentioned being in talks with Law Enforcement and getting real world street results. No doubt, if in war, using FMJ, a larger cal is preferred..........though you cannot get around sacrificing mag capacity. That said, it sounds like the Army might be going to JHP in 9.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFFVsARpdVM

Now again, I have always appreciated larger bullets, heavier bullets, in handguns and rifles when it comes to hunting. So back to my college days, I ran a lot of TC Contenders in 7TCU, 6.5TCU, etc. I also preferred 41 and 44 revolvers over 357.

Since then I have dropped deer with 6BR and 243, thru 338/06. They all died, and no doubt - STOPPING the Threat quickly IS the issue with handguns for personal protection. That said, bullet technology truly does seem to be closing the gap.

So, would one be better off with say a 16 rounds of 9mm in a modern quality JHP? Or 8-10 rounds in a 45 or 40?

Good bullets, placed thru vitals works on 2-legged just as they do on deer. Years back I had no interest in 9mm, as the concensus then was lackluster and mixed. Over time, the newer better bullets have made me completely rethink the 9 and it's reputation has grown alot since the better ammo has been issued to PD around the country.

Be well folks, and above all, train for accuracy, with dependable arms and ammo

JWP, I've read several articles where the author says a 230gr HP will often fail to expand at longer distances, but the 185gr JHP as a defensive round is better. Thoughts?

Wade, have you tried the 9mm in the big bore bowling pin events? By this I mean when we shoot our 45 ACP's and larger pistols, we set the pins at the front of the table (4x8' sheet of plywood). By the time we get to this stage of the event the pins are full of lead from the rimfire and mid bore shoots, so the pins are both heavier and lumpier in comparison than when they were closer to the back of the table. Last weekend at a bowling pin shoot, I was trying a new load with my 9mm which uses a 147gr JHP XTP bullet. I was running power pistol and velocities were pretty good. I didn't use it in the matches, but after the match I tried the new load out and low and behold the 9mm knocked them off the table just as well as the 45. The advantage of the 9mm is greater mag capacity, easier to shoot and get back on target and most times they are more accurate. One year a club member cleaned our clocks with his 9mm in all stages of the pin shoot, except for the rimfire event where it's not allowed. I've personally switched to the 9mm for the mid bore stage after witnessing that. As you know from shooting pins, some guys can take 5 pins off the table with 5 shots with their 45's in less than 5 seconds, but they are the exception, not the rule. I've never been a 9mm lover, but after shooting pins and seeing the results, its slowly winning me over. What's your experience on this? Thanks..

My opinion, MOMENTUM matters, all else equal when shooting inanimate objects. On bowling pins speed has to go up to offset lower bullet weights of the 9 no doubt. The 147 XTP holds together well, and very likely has a higher momentum than lighter bullets.

I shot steel silhouettes at 100 yds with 30/30, 7TCU, and 44. The 44 by far slammed the hell out of the rams, more so than the smaller bullets with less mass.

That said, for self-defense, there is more going on. Just depends on application, as often is the case.

Several good points in the posts above, and a little bit of confusion. Let me add my 2 cents.

Shooting pins off a table does not translate well to handgun use on people. Momentum knocks those pins off a table. Handguns do not carry enough momentum to "knock" a person down. Physics prevent this: if a bullet will "knock" a person down, then the recoil would also knock the shooter down as well. People fall down, collapse, etc, but are not "knocked" down by pistol bullets.

I've seen a few thousand handgun gunshot wounds, over 150 resulting in death, and attended many autopsies as a result. With modern expanding hollowpoints, (HST, Gold Dots, etc) I could not tell a difference in a person's reaction after being shot, or the resulting tissue damage from the projectile, based on caliber. If there is any difference I missed, it is miniscule. Non expanding bullets are different, bigger caliber usually means a bigger hole (increased wounding) but even then, the person shot doesn't react much different.

What does matter with handguns, is shot placement. Ive seen a 300 pound man take a .22 lr 40 grain roundnose to the armpit and collapse and die within seconds, and a little skinny kid take multiple .45's to the torso, never went down and recovered after a hospital stay.

My advice is use a good bullet (I prefer HST'S but there are several similar designs) of sufficient power (.38 special on up) that you can shoot accurately under stressful conditions. Shot placement is the most important factor, then bullet design, only then does caliber enter into the equation. The handgun projectile should expand yet penetrate through the vitals. Ive seen where a 185 grain Winchester Silvertip centerpunch a person a bit low, frontal through the stomach and came to rest against the person's spine, fully expanded but did not break the spine. The fight continued. A bit more penetration wojld have taken out the person's spine and ended the fight.

As an aside, I prefer a high capacity 9, as repeat shots are faster due to less recoil. In the woods, I carry a 10mm or 454 where additional penetration and power may be needed for animals much larger and with heavier bones than humans.

And then there is the 5.7.

Viking,
Good point. Admittedly, I have limited personal experience with the 5.7, as it just wasn't as popular as other handgun calibers in the city where I worked. Tactically, less recoil and high capacity is a plus, but the biggest factor I see is the ability to defeat body armor.

Manny