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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,743
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,743 |
I pick up thousands of Federal and LC at our local range..., bring it home and tumble over night, with the media having some Mineral Spirits poured into it..
Brass looks brand new the next morning...
once me and a retired Marine Buddy, after OSP had shot training for a couple of days, the left their brass all over the range...
Together Warren and I picked up a little over 12,500 cases that day...
Took a week to tumble and clean my half ( 6,000) cases.. pretty much all LC or Federal both with and without crimped primers...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,197
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
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The federal will not take a lot of pressure, soft in the case head.
All of the military brass stands trimming to length, then using a tool to put a very slight chamfer on the inside of the flash hole to "de burr" any burr that is left on the inside.
If you grab a hand full of brass that has had the primers removed, you can see how some of the cases have the flash hole way off center, it is worse on some lots of LC than any other brand of brass I have seen seconded by some lots of PMC. These off center flash holes are good for breaking your decapping pin in in your full length sizing dies or bending the rod.
I cull out this brass with the off center flash holes. I have always wanted to do a test to check accruracy on the off center flash holes but lack of time is the issue.
Last edited by keith; 04/30/21.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
I have an update. For those who haven't seen it, you can check things out here. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...inchester-brass-lots-of-pix#Post16034356The Cdn rep and Winchester have responded to me, but it was only after I said that I was going to post pictures on my site and talk to the hunting and shooting community. If you bought brass, maybe have pix or a story, I would like to hear from you. steve@303british.com It will only take a few seconds. Your name won't be divulged. I think we should remind Winchester of their responsibilities to hunters and shooters.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 30,760
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 30,760 |
Iffin U don't like bulk Win-Fed or Rem coming from a 50 gal drum
just buy Lapua
T R U M P W O N !
U L T R A M A G A !
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
I haven't bought Rem or Win for many years. I use Lapua for four cartridges, and Starline or Prvi for the rest. Without going through the story again, when I got this Win brass, I was astounded that their automated and visual checks didn't pick anything up. I think we are letting them get away with selling crap. I always thought Winchester was better than that. 
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
Everything is going to Hell. Don’t you get the papers up there?
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
Yes, but you have to be careful reading things on the Internet. Up here, I trust the papers more than digital media.
There was a time when all I bought was Winchester ammunition. I realize all companies are having problems, but for them to succeed, we need to be confident that what they offer is of value.
It is important to remind businesses of that fact when they forget that customers keep them solvent.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Nov 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
I like your optimism, but you’re dreaming. They don’t care. If they cared, they’d have QC. You tried, now move on. Life is a series of changes.......
Besides Starline, I like Hornady and Nosler lately. Have lots of good Winchester brass from the good old days for my .270s and .308s.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
This hasn't played out yet. I am optimistic because no business wants to go bankrupt.
I am also hopeful that people will object and demand satisfaction when they are sold degective merchandise.
If we don't protest, they will not clean up their act. This is not cheap, imported Chinese stuff! This is made in the USA.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,752 |
Enjoy your quest, Don Quixote!
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
Well Pappy, they may be paying me lip service, but I got a response after sending this. Hi Christine. I appreciate that you emailed. I am not angry with Winchester per se. I am disappointed that this is an ongoing problem that has been left unresolved. Let me be clear, it wasn't a single case, but rather, there were 17 defective cases of the first 50 taken from the bag. I sent two pictures. I could not forward all the pictures because of the limit what your company allows at the customer support page. I am not a tool and die maker, but spoke to one about the problem. I showed him the cases. Without seeing the press and die, he could not say with absolute certainty that the punch was past due replacement. It could have been a fouling or misalignment problem. Regardless, he told me was that QC is automated and these cases should have been picked up before they reached the bag. Something went wrong. I spoke with people at my club, and talked to acquaintances on the web. I wanted to know if any of them had experienced this problem with Winchester cases before. I got over 40 responses in two days. Taking into account that people on the Internet tend to exaggerate or misreport things, I followed up all the emails and was dismayed with the pictures I received. I discovered this problem has been going on for at least three years that I can determine. I think you understand that poor QC has already affected your business. I appreciate the follow up, but honestly, how do I politely say that you are shooting yourselves in the foot, and deserve it, due to inaction? The industry is fighting politicians and COVID. Things are difficult. It's sad when the last case maker product on the shelves is Winchester. I am not saying this to insult, but I switched to Prvi Partizan, Starline and military surplus cases for much of my reloading. My competition loads have always been Lapua. I suggest that if Winchester keeps walking this road, they'll end up in receivership like other US firearms/accessory companies. --- Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell 303british.com Visit my bookstore at www.303british.com. Latest releases - 24Hr Campfryer & More Campfyrer Tales - outdoor fiction! --- I hope they are sincere. I have asked that they let me know what the QC manager discovers and, in general terms, what follow up action will be taken. Hello Stephen
I really appreciate your concern and value it. I will make sure I escalate this to our Quality Control Manger and will work to get this resolved. If I can do anything else to help please let me know. If you would like a refund for the defective cases I will be glad to pick those up at no charge to you and give you a refund. Please let me know.
Thanks Christine The escalation went from a link asking what my problem was, to a contact from a Canadian rep. I was to send the cases back and include receipts. After several emails it went to this - If you would like a refund for the defective cases I will be glad to pick those up at no charge to you and give you a refund. That would be a courier. It appears that they are sincere. Time will tell.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,483
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've run into some crap WW brass in the older blue bags. Yup, me too.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,170
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,170 |
Winchester white box has always been a favorite of mine especially in .223. I guess it's on me to keep track of the brass and watch for QC issues in the future. Thanks for the heads up.
kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 734
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 734 |
The south Korean loaded 223 Winchester ball is toilet ammo, and the empty brass in bags is junk, Fed/LC is better.
Ya I know about Federal cases, problem is it's 5yr old news that don't die.
I would have got him too but a Dad Blam snow flake hit me in da eye....
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Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 944
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2019
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I have actually seen that on Winchester 308 brass from factory ammunition. The flash holes looked like key holes. Ended up with about 15 of them from several boxes of factory ammo.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 16,076
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
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Doesn't Starline ship to Canada? Just buy another brand and get on with your life.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
Update: Yesterday - 17 Jun 21 - I followed up with Winchester, and asked, Good morning, Christine. This is a follow up to our emails from last month. I wanted to know what the QC manager found when he checked into the problem. I assume he did? I received this response. Hello Stephen
I no information from the Quality Control Team. We sent this to our Canada Division so I have no other correspondence from them.
Thanks
Christine The brass is produced in the US, so it seems foolish to send my correspondence to the Canadian distributor. QC in the US was originally where Christine, the Winchester rep, said my observations would be sent. This morning, I sent her this. Just a quick question. Why was it forwarded to the Canada division? I thought the brass is made in the US. She responded quickly, saying, Hello Steve.
It is made in the US but you live in Canada . So I don’t handle Canadian complaints. You should have gotten a call or correspondence from a Beth Mercer.
Thanks
Christine I sent her this a minute ago. I see. In an earlier email, you said that you were going to forward the observations to the GC manager. Since the brass is produced in the US, it seems that my observations should have been addressed by QC in the plant where they are made. I am not looking to start a shouting match or get my money refunded. I genuinely hoped that QC would be interested in what myself and others have found in product bags from various retail outlets. We had talked about me receiving a response from the QC manager. Specifically, his findings, and what would be done to correct the problem. It is a worrisome production problem that is not good for the company's reputation. I hope you understand that I am trying to help. Are they sweeping this under the rug?  https://303british.com
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,743
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,743 |
Maybe this sort of product ends up in your hands, as you seem to love to have issues like this come your way, so you can be the Jimmy Olsen with the scoop for the rest of the campfire...
If I have had any issue with a batch of purchased brass, such as you are pointing out, I'll load it and see if it gives me any problems shooting some of it at the range.. If there is, and I can't correct it, I'll just toss it, instead of trying to personally make the world safe for others, by badgering Winchester to make it all PERFECT just for me... your must have a boring and shallow existence for a life.
Crappy brass is not going to be a center focus in my life for a couple of months, followed by a couple more months of Winchester making it right, so one can be the champion of the people.
INstead of calling and corresponding with a couple of bad bags from Winchester, I have Lord knows how many cases that were just range picked up brass, that others just left on the ground... I'll just use that.
I'm sure I'm not alone in the thoughts of Best of Luck on your quest, and we hope it yields the results that you are hoping to achieve.. With that accomplished I sincerely hope your next quest is to finally just down and contemplating on how to get a life....
Despite all of this stress and strife, the world will still be turning tomorrow for the rest of us....
Best of luck and may the Force be With YOU C3 P.O.
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,483
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,483 |
Update: Yesterday - 17 Jun 21 - I followed up with Winchester, and asked, Good morning, Christine. This is a follow up to our emails from last month. I wanted to know what the QC manager found when he checked into the problem. I assume he did? I received this response. Hello Stephen
I no information from the Quality Control Team. We sent this to our Canada Division so I have no other correspondence from them.
Thanks
Christine The brass is produced in the US, so it seems foolish to send my correspondence to the Canadian distributor. QC in the US was originally where Christine, the Winchester rep, said my observations would be sent. This morning, I sent her this. Just a quick question. Why was it forwarded to the Canada division? I thought the brass is made in the US. She responded quickly, saying, Hello Steve.
It is made in the US but you live in Canada . So I don’t handle Canadian complaints. You should have gotten a call or correspondence from a Beth Mercer.
Thanks
Christine I sent her this a minute ago. I see. In an earlier email, you said that you were going to forward the observations to the GC manager. Since the brass is produced in the US, it seems that my observations should have been addressed by QC in the plant where they are made. I am not looking to start a shouting match or get my money refunded. I genuinely hoped that QC would be interested in what myself and others have found in product bags from various retail outlets. We had talked about me receiving a response from the QC manager. Specifically, his findings, and what would be done to correct the problem. It is a worrisome production problem that is not good for the company's reputation. I hope you understand that I am trying to help. Are they sweeping this under the rug? https://303british.comThat's exactly what happened to me. I was referred to Beth, who told me I would be refunded for the cost of the brass if I sent it back to them (at my expense). I decided against that, and just continued to use the pieces that remained, discarding the bad ones.
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