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I was recently looking through my 1971 Gun Digest while I was perched on the porcelain in the reading room. I was reading an article wherein Bob Hagel was testing a Sharps Borchardt rifle, chambered in 30/40 Krag. Now, Hagel was always willing to utilize all of any cartridge's capacity and he did so here. His 180 grain load used enough 4895 to get over 2750 fps at the muzzle. He commented that pressures were OK, although, primer pockets got loose after 3 firings! He also listed a load of 46 grains of 4350 behind a 220 for 2385 fps. If you wanted loads for maximum velocity, there was no doubt, Bob Hagel was your man! By the way, I have used the 220 grain load (with a 220 Sierra) in a P14 I had barreled to 30/40 and it gave me 2335 from my 22 inch barrel. It flattened a bull elk very effectively. GD

To each his own. No way do I load anything hot. If I need more velocity with a bullet, I buy a rifle chambered for a bigger round. Why ? Leave your rifle and ammo out in the hot sun some day with hot loads that you developed when the temps were cooler. Try firing a few rounds. Try shooting a few rounds quickly. I owned a 7X57 once. I used Bob's load with N205 and 175 gr. Nosler Partition. The first shot on a 100 degree day was unusually loud..... Then second shot blew the primer out of the case. Enough said ? BTW, the loose primer prevented me from shooting a 3rd. time. Oh yeah. E

If you need more speed, go to a bigger cartridge. I’ve never been a max load guy, book max works fine for the hunting I do.

greydog,

I was told by a former editor of a magazine where Hagel was a columnist that Hagel's handloads had expanded chambers in at least couple of rifles enough to require rebarreling.....

I load P+ and even +P+ in pistols sometimes, depending upon what I am trying to accomplish and whether or not it is a semi or a revolver .... and even whether or not I may intend to run it through a levergun or carbine or whatever ....

.... but I am not loading hot in any rimless necked-down bottlenecked modern bolty gun. I just don't see a need to even fool with it anymore these days. I mean with modern pill technology there is an offering for every caliber imaginable in every configuration made. Bullet technology these days is a whole lot different than it was in Hagel's days .... drivin'em faster and hotter isn't such a necessity now as it was back then.

And second, I like my face. I don't wanna blow my face off or damage my fapping hand by taking some unnecessary risk behind some bolty glass.

And you know, another thing, powders these days are just so much better. 4895 and 4350 still work, and Lord knows I've got enough 4895 stashed away to roll a couple-a-100k 5.56 or 7.62 ... but there are so many other options out there these days to use for more speed and accuracy.

I may actually have that issue of Gun Digest in my library greydog ... I'll have to look and check it out if I do. I seem to remember reading that somewhere in the past myself.

YIKES!!!

Good advice! And it sounds like you don't "need" more speed anyway....

This edition greydog?




This article?




I knew I remembered reading that piece back in the day. I think that had to be one of the first Gun Digests I ever bought. I may have the 1969 Edition around here somewhere but I remember to the day, where I was, where I bought it from ... that 25th Silver Edition.

I'm going back through it now rereading and looking at all the pictures in the middle ... it's bringing back some memories.

Anyone that chambers a live round is loading hot

Yeah, that's the issue. I bought that when we lived in Kendrick, Idaho; right after I got out of the Army. Good times, except I had to work too hard for not enough money! GD

Oh yeah ... I remember those days. It cost me two hard hours of work to pay for that book, while I was paying my way through school ... just before I went to Benning, probably six or eight months before Benning. I guess that's why I kept it and treasured it all these years.

I have to give Mom and Dad some credit, they never threw it out and kept it for me for a number of years, along with other things, until I came home, got married, had the first round of kids and all that.

I wish I had all of my Grandfather's old Gun Digests ... we just never thought to save those or his reloading manuals back in the day ... my grandmother got rid of so much of his stuff while I was overseas.

I've read about folks that load their .257 Roberts AI to .257 Weatyherby levels.....I don't believe it for a minute! That said, the .257 Roberts can be loaded stronger than SAAMI specs and I don't consider it "hot". Same for the .30-06 and 7 X 57 along with a few others that are "underloaded" for some of the bolt action rifles in which they are chambered. However, loading beyond 65,000 PSI in a modern bolt action is the end of limited returns in my book. Raising pressures above this gains so little that it's not worth much if anything at all.

I can't speak of black powder rounds as I have no personal experience or knowlege with it but from friends that do, it seems to be the same there. If we learn anything from "AI" chambering is that we've been led astray by a few folks that didn't understand the laws of limiting returns.....and it's relationship to a substance we term as "BS"!

I know how much I can push a cartridge before the primer pocket is loose, the primer pierces, or the guppie belly bulges.

But 30/40 Krag in a Krag is not getting more than 40kcup = 43,555 psi from me.

It is too much work restoring those old one lug Krags.

I dunno what a Sharps will take, but the rimmed case head should be good for 70kpsi.

Nope, especially after watching grandkids kill deer pigs with a 243. I’m over gunned with my cannons I hunt with.

The Sharps-Borchardt is very strong; especially one made of modern steels. Cases like the 30/40 and 303 British are also very strong and, in my limited experience, will handle pressures beyond what rimless cases will. In part, this may be due to there being less protrusion from the barrel in rifles designed for rimmed cartridges. In a single shot rifle, with no protrusion, the brass is well supported, especially if the chamber dimensions are on the minimum side. GD

I always used the need for more velocity as an excuse to buy another rifle. Mind you, that doesn't explain why I have multiples of rifles chambered for the same cartridge.

I was pulling targets at a match, the old fellow beside me was telling me the velocities he got from his 6.5x55 in a Swedish Mauser. They were right up there with my 264WM !

More velocity, larger bore, lighter weight, heavier weight; all are valid justifications for a purchase. Currently, I am working to convince my wife of the absolute necessity of having a rifle which will use the 357 Magnum cartridges I have on hand for the pistol. Although she is usually able to grasp any concept regarding shoes or things for me to do around the house, she appears to be having trouble with this one.
Back to the hot loading: I have had a few customers who were dedicated followers of Bob Hagel. Their rifles were identifiable by the burned boltfaces, set-back locking lugs, and, in one case, bulged chamber. One told me he had worked up a load in his 30-338 which was giving him 3220 fps with a 180. No pressure signs, he said, but his primers were cratering! He wanted me to bush the firing pin to cure this and seemed almost insulted when I suggested he back off on the powder charge instead. GD

I've got a couple of 38/357 leverguns ... you can load'em hot with heavier pills and approach 2000+ fps. Some claim manufacturers do not build their bullets to travel that fast. Others claim that's too fast for even powder coated cast boolits. You average levergun is not going to have a fast rate of twist, (applies to 44 mag as well) but they'll really come to life with hotter loads both terminally and accuracy-wise. Matter of fact both Leverevolution and the new Federal Hammer caters to that niche market for non-reloaders.

IMHO 30-06 is the most versatile cartridge on the planet these days given modern bullet technology and modern propellant chemistry. With the right rifle, with the right reloader, there is almost nothing you cannot load-for in 30-06 including some really hot loads with bigger projectiles that we used to find acceptable in that case/cartridge.

I see no reason why the 7x57 cannot be loaded to the same level as the 7-08. The .280 Rem. can also be loaded to a higher level than most current factory ammo. Even the 30-06 can be loaded to give better results. Note that in the case of each cartridge mentioned, they were originally loaded in guns weaker in design than most modern bolt actions. The 93/95 Mausers, the 1903 Springfield with poor heat treatment and Remington's semi-autos and pump guns.

So am I loading them hot or just to their full potential?????
Paul B.