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post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? #16065613 05/08/21
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I may have a chance to purchase a post-64 ( G series s/n prefix) Win m70 International Army Match Rifle ( 308 Win, 24" bbl, 1-12" twist). There is not a lot of info on them. I am curious as to what level of accuracy can be expected.

From my research, they were built by the Winchester custom group, were bisonite bedded (action and first 1.5" of barrel), and were expected to be MOA shooters. MOA for a match ready rifle isn't too impressive by itself. I am curious if anyone has shot one, and can report on what was the actual level of accuracy achieved. A Rem 40x would be typically good for 0.5 MOA ( and the two I have shot were sub 0.4 MOA).

Would like to read about your individual knowledge base on this model 70 configuration, and range results. Thanks in advance.


"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16066170 05/08/21
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My push feed M70 target rifle in 308 put 5 GMMs in one ragged hole @100.

It's the top one.

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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: NYNY] #16066750 05/08/21
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Thanks NYNY. A ragged hole is good news.

Check your pm.


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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16071070 05/09/21
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Only 179 international Army match rifles were made.


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16073296 05/10/21
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Originally Posted by buttstock
I may have a chance to purchase a post-64 ( G series s/n prefix) Win m70 International Army Match Rifle ( 308 Win, 24" bbl, 1-12" twist). There is not a lot of info on them. I am curious as to what level of accuracy can be expected.

From my research, they were built by the Winchester custom group, were bisonite bedded (action and first 1.5" of barrel), and were expected to be MOA shooters. MOA for a match ready rifle isn't too impressive by itself. I am curious if anyone has shot one, and can report on what was the actual level of accuracy achieved. A Rem 40x would be typically good for 0.5 MOA ( and the two I have shot were sub 0.4 MOA).

Would like to read about your individual knowledge base on this model 70 configuration, and range results. Thanks in advance.

Was 1 moa with irons? Also was it a 3 shot guarantee or just something you heard off the net? I'd bet they would shoot lights out. I asked the yahoo to post some pics of how his iron sight rifles shoot in the other thread, but he hasnt as of yet. Of course all of our rifles are "one holers", but no body seems to want to produce pics of some such groups. A good pic of a target shot during competition would be just the ticket. Good luck getting one though. I'd post pics of honest groups, if I had one. Im not bashful though.


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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: 79S] #16073353 05/10/21
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Originally Posted by 79S
Only 179 international Army match rifles were made.


a little off topic... John I am sure you are on target.... but then. its the campfire...

as a buddy of mine who was a Navy Seal during Vietnam, with proof....

and he use to say, that there was over 20,000 guys who claimed they were Seals in Vietnam..
and he had met almost all of them....

actually about 500 of them served in Vietnam...but he met all 20,000 of them.


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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: Seafire] #16073958 05/10/21
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Originally Posted by Seafire
Originally Posted by 79S
Only 179 international Army match rifles were made.


a little off topic... John I am sure you are on target.... but then. its the campfire...

as a buddy of mine who was a Navy Seal during Vietnam, with proof....

and he use to say, that there was over 20,000 guys who claimed they were Seals in Vietnam..
and he had met almost all of them....


Uh ok...


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16073967 05/10/21
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Seafire must be into the cough medicine I have no idea wth he’s talking about with navy seals and Vietnam..


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: bsa1917hunter] #16073970 05/10/21
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Originally Posted by bsa1917hunter
Originally Posted by buttstock
I may have a chance to purchase a post-64 ( G series s/n prefix) Win m70 International Army Match Rifle ( 308 Win, 24" bbl, 1-12" twist). There is not a lot of info on them. I am curious as to what level of accuracy can be expected.

From my research, they were built by the Winchester custom group, were bisonite bedded (action and first 1.5" of barrel), and were expected to be MOA shooters. MOA for a match ready rifle isn't too impressive by itself. I am curious if anyone has shot one, and can report on what was the actual level of accuracy achieved. A Rem 40x would be typically good for 0.5 MOA ( and the two I have shot were sub 0.4 MOA).

Would like to read about your individual knowledge base on this model 70 configuration, and range results. Thanks in advance.

Was 1 moa with irons? Also was it a 3 shot guarantee or just something you heard off the net? I'd bet they would shoot lights out. I asked the yahoo to post some pics of how his iron sight rifles shoot in the other thread, but he hasnt as of yet. Of course all of our rifles are "one holers", but no body seems to want to produce pics of some such groups. A good pic of a target shot during competition would be just the ticket. Good luck getting one though. I'd post pics of honest groups, if I had one. Im not bashful though.


As been pointed that yahoo is Larry root


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16074099 05/11/21
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What seafire was pointing out,

was something has a limited number of them...

500 Seals served in Vietnam.... but there were thousands that claimed to have been Seals and served in Vietnam...

hence, 179 rifles of those Winchesters made as you point out...

but how many people claim to have one... a lot more than were ever made...

maybe in my old age I need to learn to communicate better.....

I don't do cough syrup anyway... old G.I. Gin..

I have a covid shot... ain't that suppose to cure everything according to Joe Biden, Fauci and Kate Brown??


"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC

“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

IC-B

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: Seafire] #16077543 05/12/21
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Originally Posted by Seafire
What seafire was pointing out,

was something has a limited number of them...

500 Seals served in Vietnam.... but there were thousands that claimed to have been Seals and served in Vietnam...

hence, 179 rifles of those Winchesters made as you point out...

but how many people claim to have one... a lot more than were ever made...

maybe in my old age I need to learn to communicate better.....

I don't do cough syrup anyway... old G.I. Gin..

I have a covid shot... ain't that suppose to cure everything according to Joe Biden, Fauci and Kate Brown??


Those 179 rifle have something the other don’t have,


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16078307 05/12/21
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I've only seen a couple of the M70 International's over the years. Both owned by friends. One might still have his. I'll have to check in with him. They were supposedly produced for ISU shooting (now known as ISSF) which means they were 300M and CISM rifles. The 300M meter 10 ring is 3.6" and 300M converts to 328 yds. I'll let ya'll figure out the MOA on that one! The 300M course of fire for men is 40 shots in each of three positions (prone, standing and kneeling). A competitive rifle is expected to be able to hold 10 ring for the full course.

These rifles were differentiated from the regular M70 Targets by their stock and adjustable triggers. The Internationals had the more vertical pistol grip and deeper forearm that represented the International rifles of the day (think 40XC) versus the Marksman stocks of the typical M70 Match rifles (see NYNY's pic above).

More than a few were used for NRA Highpower and at least one of the ones I saw was clip slotted. I'd say the accuracy you could expect would partially depend on the mileage on the barrel. If it was used competitively in highpower or ISU competition, where barrels are consumables it will be a crapshoot for accuracy. We competitors tend to put A LOT of rounds downrange in practice and competition. Good luck chasing that rifle and post pics if you are successful.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: ChrisF] #16078477 05/12/21
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Originally Posted by ChrisF
...
The 300M meter 10 ring is 3.6" and 300M converts to 328 yds. I'll let ya'll figure out the MOA on that one! The 300M course of fire for men is 40 shots in each of three positions (prone, standing and kneeling). A competitive rifle is expected to be able to hold 10 ring for the full course.
...


Rough figures:

3.6" / 3.28 = 1.097561 inches at 100 yards

1 moa is about 1.0472 inches at 100 yards

1.097561 / 1.0472 = 1.0481, so the 10 ring is roughly 1.05 moa wide.

120 rounds into just over moa is the expectation.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16078513 05/12/21
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...I will add to that. MOA at just over 300 yards is the expectation from me..a world of difference from 100 yards MOA. Plus I'm sure the shooters expected "inner 10" capability (45mm or 1.77"...in today's scoring scheme. I'm not sure how the scoring looked in the 70's and 80's when these rifles were current). What percent of shots in the inner 10? You'll have to find one of the shooters from the era. I'm about to call my friend that competed in Highpower with one of these. I have a couple of friends that were on the 3P circuit back then. I'll see if they had experience with these rifles as well.

Last edited by ChrisF; 05/12/21.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: ChrisF] #16078797 05/12/21
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My figures were mathematical, and an moa is an angle which is fixed no matter the distance.

That said, I believe I understand your point which is fitting all the shots into the same moa angle is more difficult to achieve at 300+ yards than it is at 100 yards.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16080135 05/12/21
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mathman,
I wasn't questioning your math which I'm sure is spot on. But rather giving more context to the accuracy relative to the intended use. I know you get this, but while MOA subtension increases linearly as distance increases (1.04" at 100 yards, 2.08 at 200 yards, 3.12 at 300 yards etc). shot dispersion does not increase in a linear fashion as the distance increases. A rifle shooting 1" groups at 100 yards will very likely shoot bigger than 3" groups at 300 yards.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16082255 05/13/21
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Well, I bought that Win m70 International Army Match G-series rifle. Will pick it up tomorrow. It is not factory original. The factory barrel was replaced with a Boots Obermeyer 5R 1-11" twist 24" stainless barrel (308 Win). The barrel has very low round count. The short action is clip-slotted, and has front / rear iron sight base blocks. I'll put A set of Redfield International (F/R) sights, and a steel-tubed Weaver T-10 scope on it. The previous owner has no idea where the original barrel is, or why it was rebarreled . He did not rebarrel it.

I bought it as a shooter, not for pure collecting. Should make for an interesting cast bullet and squirrel rifle.


"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16082799 05/13/21
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Looking forward to pictures. It should be a great shooter. I recently put a 1 in 12 Obermeyer on my M70 Palma rifle and am very impressed with it.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16083006 05/13/21
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Originally Posted by buttstock
... The factory barrel was replaced with a Boots Obermeyer 5R 1-11" twist 24" stainless barrel (308 Win). The barrel has very low round count. ...


If that doesn't shoot little clusters I don't know what will.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16083252 05/13/21
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Quote
[/quote]buttstock,
Great! Post pics! I would say if you were after a shooter, you very likely got that with a fresh Obie barrel on there. That would be an upgrade. I got to speak with my friend that campaigned an International Army Match for a bit. He said it was accurate, but he had better accuracy from well built custom rifles. He said no external trigger adjustments (I read 79S's article and see it's consistent with his recollection). Waiting on my 300M shooting friend to get back to me still.

[quote] I recently put a 1 in 12 Obermeyer on my M70 Palma rifle and am very impressed with it.

Treasure that rifle MikeS. If it's a Palma 1976 Centennial rifle, it might be rarer than a Int'l Army Match. You must have a friend with a stash of Boot's best, because I've been told it's unlikely he'll be making barrels going forward.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: ChrisF] #16083520 05/14/21
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ChrisF, mine is actually just a m70 short action push feed I shoot Palma with.

I do have a friend with a stash of Boot's barrels.
I told him at our last 1000 yard practice that I'd buy another if he wanted to sell. I think I caught him at a weak moment with the first one.

I have heard that there was a true solid bottom M70 action made for target rifles that is likely the rarest. Grant U. had owned one I heard. I didn't think they were sold as complete rifles. I should email him, he was a Winchester sales rep for years. Wondering if that is the Palma 1976...

Last edited by MikeS; 05/14/21.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16083871 05/14/21
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MikeS,
As few aa were produced, the ‘76 Palmas are fairly well documented. Google returned some pretty good hits and there are even some good print articles to refer to. It doesn’t appear that the ‘76 was a solid bottom. But I’d be interested to hear more about those if you ever track down more info!
Chris.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16084734 05/14/21
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Seeking guidance. Picked up the Win m70 International Army Match rifle this morning. It has the two small Allen screws in the tang ( external adjustment trigger).

Which hole does what? I presume one adjustment screw is over travel, and the other is sear or trigger pull. Which one is which, and is there anything special I should know about adjusting it? I would like to remove some over travel.

Thanks.


"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16084751 05/14/21
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Originally Posted by buttstock
Seeking guidance. Picked up the Win m70 International Army Match rifle this morning. It has the two small Allen screws in the tang ( external adjustment trigger).

Which hole does what? I presume one adjustment screw is over travel, and the other is sear or trigger pull. Which one is which, and is there anything special I should know about adjusting it? I would like to remove some over travel.

Thanks.


You have one of the legit international army match rifles. When I told seafire those 179 rifles have something others don’t, and you just said what it was. Congrats on a rare find!


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16086098 05/15/21
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if 'boots' made the bbl, youll be just fine.


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Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16105951 05/22/21
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Any shooting to report?


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: mathman] #16107905 05/23/21
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Originally Posted by mathman
Any shooting to report?


Not yet. Waiting on a 2-piece set of steel "Weaver-style" bases. I did take it apart for a thorough cleaning, and trigger adjustment ( to remove a bit of over travel). The bedding ( bisonite?) looks very well done. I am very happy with it. Will post a range report after the initial sighting in trip.

With all the love and history of pre-64 model 70 actions ( I have owned two), I hope people can give a little attention to the post-64 (G s/n prefix series) actioned-rifles. They may be the "Rodney Dangerfield" of actions: "no respect.". I like the way this action looks and feels. I just may have to name it " Rodney."

Stay tuned for shooting results ( 2 weeks??).


"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

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Any news?


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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Not yet. Got sidetracked. Adopted an eight week old Brittany Setter mix two weeks ago and have been having fun playing with her. Hope to get to the range by end of June.



"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

"Strive to be underestimated."
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16177269 06/16/21
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That's a fun sidetrack.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16214323 07/01/21
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I finally caught up with my friend Dennis. Dennis shot for the USMC International and US teams. While he did shoot 300m 3P and CISM, he did not shoot the Winchester M70 Intn'l Army Match. He shot a Remington 700 or 40x bedded into a Standard Rifle stock (probably an Anschutz) by the RTE Armorers (2112's).
...so while I can't speak directly to the accuracy of the M70 IAM's, I did get a peek at the accuracy requirements of a competitive 300m rifle. Dennis says that they were striving for multiple 1.5" 10 shot groups at 300m out of the test cradle at Quantico. His rifle shot tested at 2" and he set the half course prone record at that time, which means his rifle was shooting 10's for 20 shots (the 10 ring is roughly 3" at 300M). His teammates Gary Andrade shot a M700 as well and DI Boyd preferred an M70 (that he shot lefty). Their rifles tested similarly and Andrade broke Dennis' record shortly after.

I know the 2112 who was building these rifles and I just recalled a story he told me that is relevant. He had installed a barrel from one of the "name" barrel makers and it had tested the tightest he had seen on a 300M rifle at 10 shot 1". Problem was it was printing one target over. He called the barrel maker who said it was impossible.

Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16219707 07/02/21
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One of these is listed on gunbroker now.

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Originally Posted by buttstock
Not yet. Got sidetracked. Adopted an eight week old Brittany Setter mix two weeks ago and have been having fun playing with her. Hope to get to the range by end of June.



Any news?


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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Any news?


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: mathman] #16373225 08/24/21
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Originally Posted by mathman
Any news?


Top


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16375464 08/25/21
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Maybe this week. Family visit season....and a 4 1/2 month Brittany / English Setter puppy that needs petting.


"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."

"Strive to be underestimated."
Re: post-64 Win m70 International Army Match Rifle: accuracy reports? [Re: buttstock] #16375513 08/25/21
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 37,269
M
mathman Online Content
Campfire Oracle
Online Content
Campfire Oracle
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 37,269
I get it. Lately I've been kept away from the loading bench and range too.


"In the real world, think of the 6.5 Creedmoor as the modernized/standardized/optimized version of the 6.5x55/.260." John Barsness 2019
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