Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

bcelliott,

Your news of the brass is too little too late for me.
I should check the classifieds more often, eh ?

You got me thinking on the bullet testing.
The 480-gr XTSX at 2300 to 2400 fps,
the 400-gr XTSX at 2500 to 2600 fps,
from the .458 WM+,
and cast bullet FNs light and heavy and soft and hard and 1300 fps to 2300 fps ...

Nice, and all true, as is the old saying, "so much to do, so damn little daylight/time to do it in."

Great stuff. I need to get back on the 458. Been monkeying with my Mashburn the last couple days.

beretzs,

Buy a donkey for the flowers.
We both suffer from "so much to do, so damn little daylight/time to do it in" as Sir Jerry stated.

bcelliott,
Catching some more bullets falls into my daylight issues category too.
I am still planning to gitterdun before hunting with that bullet.
The Iron WaterBoard Buffalo has been out to pasture by I am itching to ride it again.
I have a system that is as reliable and interpretable as anything else for testing soft points or FN soilds
I have a Level One IWBB for softs, and a Level Two IWBB for the FN solids.
I do not allow round nose solids anywhere near the IWBB since they go out the sides of the IWBB too often,
and I do not like having to patch the IWBB.
Lord knows plywood and waterbuckets are expensive enough nowadays.
But I like them better than wet newsprint or gelatin.
Heck I could throw some bones and meat into the buckets instead of water,
but getting the same cuts of meat and bones lined up for every shot is dang near impossible.
Know what I mean ?
Blocks of gelatin or bookbinders glue or livestock protein supplement like Sir Dennis uses in the big tubs ?

Here is what Mike brady did with the bookbinders glue when he was perfecting the North Fork bullets:

The Homer Bucket method requires only some wooden step hangers (decking), some 4x4 timbers, and 5-gallon nylon buckets with lids
nestled in line horizontally.
Even the 55-gallon-drum-of-water-killer bullets can be stopped by this simple apparatus for soft point catching.



The first bucket and maybe second buckets and lids in the line will be exploded, depending on velocity of bullet.
Subsequent ones in the line may be salvaged for reuse after some duct tape.

Here is a sample of GSC HV .395-caliber/ 340-grain bullets at 3 muzzle velocities, caught by the Homer Buckets at 25 yards:



1600 fps: 2 buckets
2500 fps: 3 buckets
2700 fps: 4 buckets

Some bullets do penetrate deeper at higher velocity, some don't.
These also penetrate deeper at higher velocity from the .395 Tatanka (.395/.416 Rigby 20* Shoulder),
they are custom S&H 310-gr/ .395-caliber brass "velohexploders"
tested before CEB brass softs were a gleam in Michael McCourry's eye.
Lehigh Defense was doing such things before CEB or S&H.

IWBB Level One, one plywood board and one waterbucket per compartment:



IWBB Level Two, two plywood boards and one waterbucket per compartment.
10 compartments, each compartment 10" thick, 100" long from head to rump.
4 inches thickness of extra plywood is the tail on the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo.

The Level One is for the 550-gr paper-patched 20:1 alloy FN at 1400 fps from the .458 WM-BPCR,
and the 400-gr XTSX at +2500 fps from the .458 WM+,
and the 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps from the .458 WM+.

The Level Two is for the 480-gr XTSX and 480-gr HYDRO and 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps from the .458 WM+.

GUY ON A BUFFALO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ4T9CQA0UM

Hey guys,

Stumbled across this on Youtube so thought I'd post and share...

Cheers,

Russ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnJL8a_ZZ-4

Hi Russ;

I'm waiting for Ron to show up for his comments, but I'll make a couple of my own in the meantime: With all due respect, there's nothing new there. It has all been discussed, corrected and debunked on AR, and now here on this thread.

I read an article not long ago in one of the magazines in which the author did his best to put the .458 Win Mag in a more modern light, but it fell far short of the whole truth, similar to this video. In factory ammo the Lott will exceed the Winchester by 100 to 150 fps depending on a number of factors: It's loaded "hotter" than the .458 WIN and it needs a longer barrel.

The speaker made a number of critical errors in his statements: The original .458 Win was not in a 26" barrel, but a 25". In handloads, a dozen years ago I was able to exceed 3.6" COL with 500gr Barnes X-Bullets in my CZ550. In fact, due to the action length (same as the CZ550 Lott) I reached 3.78", leaving more room for powder than the Lott, plus still have more "freebore". That was a dozen years ago, and it was published in my manual at the time with photos showing the COL of each side by side, with the .458 Win exceeding the COL of the Lott - 3.6" vs 3.78". In my Ruger No.1, with its 24", I can easily duplicate and slightly exceed the results I got from my former CZ550.

Then, thanks to Sir Ron. he has shown that all that is possible at LOWER PSI than the Lott! He has also revealed the truth that the SAAMI PSI for the .458 WIN is 60,000 vs 62,500 for the Lott! There's no honest reason for increasing PSI over the .458 WIN other than for promotional purposes. And... the fact is that original Winchester ammo did make the claimed ballistics, as well as handloads back-in-the day, according to several sources.

And I'm sure Ron will chime in here - I hope he does.

Nonetheless, Russ, I appreciate your motive and you personally.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

And I should add: I consider Sir Ron the current guru on the GREAT .458 Winchester Magnum. He's done more testing of a variety of bullets, including cast, from several rifles than even the so-called pros. Also, the historical research and meticulous analysis. I know of no one with greater knowledge, or as much, as Ron. And he's still carrying on...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Man, now that’s the way to test Bullets! That’s a helluva neat idea RC!

What an amazing bullet terminal performance setup! Very nice.

Sir Bob,

My feelings about the find of BadboyMelvin are same as yours.
Buy a donkey to him for bringing it here.

The guy making the youtube has a great newsreader voice
and he does prefer the .458 Winchester Magnum over the .458 Lott, bless his heart.
But there are a lot of holes in his presentation as you note.

The claim of 26" barrel use instead of 25" barrel, as you note, and the false claim of failure to achieve advertised ballistics in original rifles
shows the guy did only superficial research and was regurgitating the pablum of the Lottites on those points.
He should have read General Hatcher and known that in H. P. White Laboratory data of circa 1955 engineering development, in a 25" barrel:

500-gr WRA FMJ round nose
3.340" COL
71.0 grains HiVel#2 NOT COMPRESSED
Winchester No. 120 primer
Winchester brass case
>>> 2160 fps <<<
at 50,410 PSI for average of 10 shots.

A bit less egregious is his flummux in saying that the German 9.3x62mm Mauser M98 of 1905 inspired the English .404 Jeffery M98 of 1904 !
Yes, the .404 Jeffery was first, bless his heart.
And he did not even point out that the 9.3x62mm Mauser of CIP spec gains much of its mightier-than-expected prowess from being throated
with a long, leade-only chamber similarly as with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

He totally neglected the .450 Watts Magnum and .450 Watts Short in the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum,
over two decades before Jack Lott neglected it too.

He neglected to mention that if Jack Lott's first shot on the Mozambique cape buffalo in 1959 had not been a gut shot
then Wally Johnson would not have had to use Jack's .458 Winchester Magnum to finish off the cape buffalo,
after Jack got tossed and dropped his rifle on the ground.

He carries water for the .458 Lott in claiming so much superiority for the Lott.
There is only 50 fps superiority for the Lott, not 150 fps, if both are limited to SAAMI restrictions with 500-grain bullets.
He fails to mention that the .458 Winchester Magnum can be loaded to 3.600" with many bullets instead of 3.340".
He fails to mention that the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum can be loaded to the higher MAP (62,500 PSI)
that the .458 Lott requires to have any advantage over the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum at MAP of 60,000 psi .
If the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to 3.6" COL and 62,500 PSI, it easily surpasses the .458 Lott in velocity and at lower pressure.

He really did not stress the past failures in faulty manufacturing of factory loads for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
He just blew it off as inherent to the .458 Winchester Magnum case capacity.
The same QA applied to the .458 Lott would have resulted in the same problems.

Also he did not mention that the current SAAMI .458 Lott is a far cry from the .458 Lott that Jack built.
Jack had his cartridge inserted within the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber, with same length to end of throat.
The SAAMI .458 Lott is crippled by its short and tight little throat.

Well, he came to the right conclusion anyway, even if it was because the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has less recoil than the SAAMI .458 Lott,
even when both are delivering the same ballistics.

Buy a donkey to all y'all for appreciation of the bullet trap.
I had to delete one of the pictures above because it showed the Iron WaterBoard Elephant (IWBE) misidentified as the Level Two Iron WaterBoard Buffalo (IWBB).
I have decided to leave the IWBB out at pasture.
Instead of IWBB Levels One, Two, and Three,
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE. One level of IWBE with 3 boards per compartment fits all.
Lesser bullets will make do with whatever they score, soft or solid.
Regrettably, I fiddled with a lot of other calibers (including inventing the .395-caliber rifle barrel with enabling by Harry McGowen)
before coming to the realization that the .458 Winchester Magnum was best of all sporting rifles.
I will be riding the elephant instead of the buffalo henceforth. Allow me to explain ...

The Level One IWBB, one board per compartment:

Medium hardness cast bullet pancaking at high velocity:



Hard brass FN does not expand at only 2400 fps:



The Level Two IWBB, two boards per compartment,
same brass FN at higher velocity was trapped, but might have exited out the tail end of the Level One IWBB:



A visual on the boards and buckets penetrated in the IWBB Level Two by those two bullets:

The lower scoring copper FN (340-gr/ .395-cal at 2700 fps):



The deeper penetrating brass FN (330-gr/ .395-cal at 2800 fps):

I forgot about the iron water board Buffalo. I am sure you remember Bastard Bullet Works!!

My test box was 72” of wet newsprint, with 2 by 6’s on each end and one more about 12” in. Out of of my Lott, a 450 grain NF or BBW solid clean through everything out in the cane field.

It would have been the same out of a WM, it is just what I had.

Those are some great bullets.

Yes, Mike70560, yours was like Michael McCourry's setup.
And yes, it would have been the same with the .458 WM+ pushing the North Fork 450-grainer FN at 2400 fps MV,
only a little more energy would have been wasted on the cane field with the .458 WM+.
The IWBB is now the IWBE. Hoorah !

Origin of the Iron WaterBoard Elephant circa 2008:















Or, just back the elephant up against a tree or a lean-to pile of boards ten feet thick if testing nonsporting artillery.

The rest of the tale:















I expect that the .458/ 500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid (bronze FN with sectional density .341)
at 2300 fps impact with IWBE at 25 yards,
from a .458 WM+,
will pass beyond the fifth compartment, straight and true to a stop.

Sir Jerry did good today:



Inspirational for .458 WM varminting.

Originally Posted by Mike70560:
"I forgot about the iron water board Buffalo. I am sure you remember Bastard Bullet Works!!"

Mike, did you mean "Bastard file Bullet Works" where the BBW nose profile of CEB was created ?

And about forgetting the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo: Yes, we are.

Goodbye Iron WaterBoard Buffalo:



Henceforth all bullet interrogation will be by Iron WaterBoard Elephant ...



I am grateful for the pioneering use of a bastard file by BBW personnel.
Bastard file milling techniques continue to this day at BB&BMT (Bubba's Bullet & Brass Metamorphosis Technologies, Ltd., very limited).