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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The most concerning thing I’ve seen in this thread has been the underestimation of the enemy. Talking about thugs who don’t pull up their pants or whatever.
That’s a caricature of the bad guy. That’s the stooge, the hanger-on, the lackey. That’s not the bad guy.
The bad guy will Jack. You. Up. He’s bigger and faster and stronger and meaner than you and he’s lived harder for longer than you. You can disagree, but it’ll only be because you haven’t met him yet. He used to live right next to me. 6' 6" of genuine OG. He spent more time in prison than out, and was one serious piece of sold muscle. I treated him with respect, and we got along just fine, until he want back into the clink for violating he parole when he beat of his pretty engineer wife.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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The most concerning thing I’ve seen in this thread has been the underestimation of the enemy. Talking about thugs who don’t pull up their pants or whatever.
That’s a caricature of the bad guy. That’s the stooge, the hanger-on, the lackey. That’s not the bad guy.
The bad guy will Jack. You. Up. He’s bigger and faster and stronger and meaner than you and he’s lived harder for longer than you. You can disagree, but it’ll only be because you haven’t met him yet. "When you think you're tired, when you want to rest, when you think you've trained enough, remember this: the enemy may be cold, hungry, and the only thing clean about him may be his weapon. But he's a true believer. He's not afraid to die. He expects to die. And he wants as many of you and your men to die first" And, the one a Vietnam vet said to some of us before going through the breach: "Your first gunfight's gonna be like the first time you got laid: it will be over really fast, you won't be nearly as good as you imagine you'll be, and the best possible outcome is that you're just good enough to get the chance to do it again." A gun is a tool. Having one doesn't make a man a gunfighter any more than owning a table saw makes a man a master cabinetmaker.
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Jared Reston.
Look up his story and understand it takes more than a gun to survive.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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More than the average rounds fired
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
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Agree. In a normal distribution, there is a 50-50 chance that a given situation will require more than the average. My question has always been how are knowledgeable people deciding where along the spectrum of possible shooting events one should be positioned. I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done. I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However... At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil. Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice. So, getting back to statistical probabilities, I think I am better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV. Nothing wrong with that statement OR choice. Edited to add; Alvin C York took out over 20 krauts with his 1911.....
Last edited by jorgeI; 05/19/21.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Outfitter
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Agree. In a normal distribution, there is a 50-50 chance that a given situation will require more than the average. My question has always been how are knowledgeable people deciding where along the spectrum of possible shooting events one should be positioned. I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done. I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However... At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil. Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice. So, getting back to statistical probabm better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV. Nothing wrong with that statement OR choice. Edited to add; Alvin C York took out over 20 krauts with his 1911..... Are you sure about that...? Seems like the number killed with the pistol was 6. Still a tremendous feat, but I think the others were killed by Corporal York with his accurate rifle fire. He said he was "sharp shooting!"
Last edited by MOGC; 05/19/21.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done.
I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However...
At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil.
Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice.
So, getting back to statistical probabilities, I think I am better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV.
Interesting and I can agree with that. Curious (purely academic and not poking holes here) - what's the tipping point on capacity? Take platform out of it as 45ACP is available in 1911 or Glock/Sig etc. If you could do 12 45acp or 15 9mm - is it always "more is better" and that's all there is or is there a number where once hit, you'd be willing to use a different cartridge? I'm a 1911 guy that happens to carry a G19. I don't necessarily feel less effective with the 1911 but given my locale, my odds of needing either are about the same as Joe Biden writing a best seller on astro-physics. I still end up carrying the G19 all the time tho.
Me
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Campfire Outfitter
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To Wader's point, I too feel better with more rounds ( I came to this decision about 2 years ago) but could not figure out what to carry. I too love my 1911's but chose to carry my M&P Shield for concealed carry. The lack of rounds in the Shield always bothered me and try as I might (believe me I tried) I just can not like a Glock. I do own one and have owned several over the years, but they did not carry good for me and at best I shot them ok.
Fast forward to a few months back and I bought the Sig 365XL. Love everything about that gun except as I have stated in other threads, there is something about the grip that "at draw" I do not line up correctly. I got to thinking, I love my Shield so much, why fight it, so I bought the new Shield Plus and now I have more rounds, can carry it just like my other one.
I am thinking about a M&P compact for when concealment allows a little bigger gun just to increase the round count a little more. I have not committed to the idea yet but I am thinking about it but would like to see one in person and compare it size wise to my Shield + and get a better idea of how big it really is.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Teal, maybe the size, weight, bulk and shootability of a G21 vs. G19 is a factor? If a guy wants a high capacity . 45 that comes with a price. Cue the .40 S&W fans, three, two, one....
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,662 Likes: 12 |
Agree. In a normal distribution, there is a 50-50 chance that a given situation will require more than the average. My question has always been how are knowledgeable people deciding where along the spectrum of possible shooting events one should be positioned. I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done. I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However... At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil. Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice. So, getting back to statistical probabm better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV. Nothing wrong with that statement OR choice. Edited to add; Alvin C York took out over 20 krauts with his 1911..... Are you sure about that...? Seems like the number killed with the pistol was 6. Still a tremendous feat, but I think the others were killed by Corporal York with his accurate rifle fire. He said he was "sharp shooting!" Not really about the exact number. All I know for sure he used a combination of his rifle and (measly) 7+1 1911...  Also edited to add: my second most used carry gun was for many years, a G31 now replaced by a 48 with ONLY 10+1....The horror..
Last edited by jorgeI; 05/19/21.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Regular
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I think this thread is the most informative and thought provoking that has been on here in a long time. I have enjoyed it immensely and learned from it also. Thanks to all that are participating and keeping it civil.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,662 Likes: 12 |
I think this thread is the most informative and thought provoking that has been on here in a long time. I have enjoyed it immensely and learned from it also. Thanks to all that are participating and keeping it civil. But, the Orifice and Delphi begs to differ.... WTF is interesting about that article?
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,258 Likes: 16 |
Agree. In a normal distribution, there is a 50-50 chance that a given situation will require more than the average. My question has always been how are knowledgeable people deciding where along the spectrum of possible shooting events one should be positioned. I don't consider myself to be any kind of an authority as to what's best or what others should do. I will simply say what I've done. I started carrying faithfully, everyday, about 10 years ago. I bought a 1911 LW Commander (8+1 capacity). I used both IWB and OWB holsters. I shot it fine and have no complaints about it. In fact, I still have it. However... At some point, I joined the group of people who believe that the 9mm (loaded with good ammunition) is just as effective for self defense as the .45 ACP. My LW Commander was the same size/weight as a fully loaded Glock 19 but held 9 rounds instead of 16. I also decided that the multiple safeties of a 1911 were not an advantage, nor was the increased recoil. Now don't get me wrong--I love 1911's! I absolutely love them--the look, the history, the way they feel in my hand, everything!! But...for saving my own life, a G19 with 17 or 21 round mags as spares, is a much better choice. So, getting back to statistical probabm better prepared for a worse-than-average gunfight with a G19 over a 1911. YMMV. Nothing wrong with that statement OR choice. Edited to add; Alvin C York took out over 20 krauts with his 1911..... Are you sure about that...? Seems like the number killed with the pistol was 6. Still a tremendous feat, but I think the others were killed by Corporal York with his accurate rifle fire. He said he was "sharp shooting!" Not really about the exact number. All I know for sure he used a combination of his rifle and (measly) 7+1 1911... Also edited to add: my second most used carry gun was for many years, a G31 now replaced by a 48 with ONLY 10+1....The horror.. Jorgei, They make 15 round steel mags for the G48. Why not pick up a few (if and when you can find them) and have the best of both worlds? And they make double stack 1911's too. I understand your like something of a heft and size that really fills the hands, nothing like a double stack 1911 for that. Of course, even at the commanders size, with two extra mags plus one in the pipe 40 rounds of .45 ACP and a couple pounds of steel weighs heavy on the belt. I like my 1911, but for now, the lighter poly frame and lighter ammo load that affords 6 extra rounds gets the nod.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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So again, I ask you to be specific: what is it that was so flawed about "the old ways", and what is so much better about "the new ways"? Don't just drop names, please give some specifics here.
I don't know about Mike, but I'll offer a few changes that I've observed of the last 18 years. Some of them might sound small, but in practice they're not. Using "combat effective" as an accuracy standard. "Focus on the front sight" "Jerking the trigger" "Slow down on your trigger press" "Lean into the gun to absorb recoil" "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" 60 / 40 grip pressure Some of that is still taught, but not by anyone I'll listen to. And more ridiculous stuff than that has been offered up as good advice by respected members of this forum before. correct, in fact itsbest to elan back at a 30 degree angle, and press the trigger slowly to a 4 count while shooting instinctively, cause in a real fight tere is just not time to find the sights
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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To Wader's point, I too feel better with more rounds ( I came to this decision about 2 years ago) but could not figure out what to carry. I too love my 1911's but chose to carry my M&P Shield for concealed carry. The lack of rounds in the Shield always bothered me and try as I might (believe me I tried) I just can not like a Glock. I do own one and have owned several over the years, but they did not carry good for me and at best I shot them ok.
Fast forward to a few months back and I bought the Sig 365XL. Love everything about that gun except as I have stated in other threads, there is something about the grip that "at draw" I do not line up correctly. I got to thinking, I love my Shield so much, why fight it, so I bought the new Shield Plus and now I have more rounds, can carry it just like my other one.
I am thinking about a M&P compact for when concealment allows a little bigger gun just to increase the round count a little more. I have not committed to the idea yet but I am thinking about it but would like to see one in person and compare it size wise to my Shield + and get a better idea of how big it really is. Pullit, Nothing wrong with not liking the Glock. There's a lot of great alternatives. You mentioned the M&P, but I'd also like to remind people of the CZ P10c, the new Walther PDP, and H&K PV9. IMO the Glock has the edge in simplicity and aftermarket parts, but a good case can be made for each of the above being better guns than the Glock 19. As for the Sig 365's, I agree with you. They don't feel right in my hands. When drawing from concealment on the timer I need something with a fully hand sized grip so where I can get a proper purchase without any fingers hanging off, such as with the Glock 19 sized frames. Likewise when carrying something shield sized, it's with an extended magazine that accommodates all my fingers on the grip. The good news is the gun manufacturers are coming out with a lot of new, innovative products in the CCW space. Our options keep getting better and it'll be interesting to see how this space continues to evolve.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,662 Likes: 12 |
[
Jorgei,
They make 15 round steel mags for the G48. My neighbor has them. According to him, they work fine but they are made of metal and from his research you have to change the plastic mag release button to a metal one.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,336
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,336 |
My brother has the Walther PDP and he likes it. I have only handled it and not shot it so I can't comment on it. I wish there was a shop that had the CZ around my area, as you are not the only one that has told me they were good. I have not handled or seen an H&K yet.
The point of this thread was size of round vs shots fired (readers digest version). I do think that type/brand of ammo has a lot to do with this as well. I have watched several youtube videos where they shot ballistics gel some covered in clothing and some without. Different brands of ammo were used in side by side comparisons and some did WAY better than others.
I say all that to say, after watching these videos, I have chosen a brand and type bullet I feel good about carrying and now have chosen a pistol that gives me more than I had as far as round count goes.
I will never claim to be the pistol shots that some of you are, but I am trying to get better. Until then, I want as many rounds in my pistol as I can get and still keep it concealed with everyday clothing.
I may not be smart but I can lift heavy objects
I have a shotgun so I have no need for a 30-06.....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,258 Likes: 16 |
[
Jorgei,
They make 15 round steel mags for the G48. My neighbor has them. According to him, they work fine but they are made of metal and from his research you have to change the plastic mag release button to a metal one. Changing the mag release on a Glock is pretty simple. Heck, building a Glock from the frame up is pretty simple. Youtube and go.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
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... I have chosen a brand and type bullet I feel good about carrying and ... I want as many rounds in my pistol as I can get and still keep it concealed with everyday clothing. Sound logic. You won't get any arguments from me.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 05/19/21.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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