Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

BBM,
Your .458 load above is the same velocity as my 400 grain .405 WCF load and I can assure you that it will take a Cape Buffalo.or similar sized game. Please do publish your hunt report.

Good hunting!

Amen ! When a 400-gr Old X-Bullet will do better than any 500-gr soft nose, all with SAAMI .458 WM loadings,
it may be time to step up to a 550-grain SN at 2100 fps.
Even if a .458/ 500-grainer at 2000 fps will make a bloody big hole through anything.

Sir Bob,

Your blog was thought provoking, as usual. If you write it, I find it invariably interesting.
I am itching to shoot cast bullets at 1300 fps, like Saint Bagwell did.
If only I could shoot as well as he could, I could BAGWELL as he could.

Cast lead bullets:
If you got 'em, smoke 'em, I mean shoot 'em.
There may come a day when the new world order outlaws lead bullets.
Then only outlaws will have lead bullets.
Breaking Bad will mean cooking up a batch of lead bullets at home instead of meth.
Casting lead bullets is addictive.

I never gave the Super Grade .458 WM a girl name.
Maybe I just call her Cabela. Sounds female.
Don't know the origin of the family name "Cabela."
Googled and everybody is just guessing: Bohemian, Czech, Portuguese.
Meaning: Everything from "beautiful goddess" to "horse hair."
Sounds sort of Spanish.
So I pull out a Spanish & English dictionary.

Cabal (adj.): exact, full, complete, perfect

Ca'bala (f. noun): intrigue, divination

Caballa (f. noun): mackerel (!)

Caballeri'a (f. noun): mount, horse, mule; cavalry; chivalry, knighthood

OK that does it, her name is Caballeri'a, Cabela for short.

Speaking of which, she will do fine as a standard SAAMI .458 WM, but could be easily converted to .458 WM+.
The old M70 Classics from Connecticut have shorter extractors,
the newer M70 by FN (SC or Portugal assembled) have slightly longer extractors, on the ones I have seen.
Hopefully no potmetal spring steel here:

Whatever way she goes, Cabela needs her magazine box front wall reinforced so as to not get dented by bullet tips in recoil.
This could be a steel plate soldered outside the box front,
or merely tight contact with steel bed epoxy against the front wall of mag box.

Sir Ron;

Today I went to the range - first time since late last Fall. I put together a few different loads but only shot the 465gr semi-hardcast. Thanks for the advise you gave to slow them to around 1400 using 5744. I didn't have any so went to William's Arms in Port Perry to pick up a can after having phoned to see if they had it. They did; ouch! For $74! Anyway, ya don't use much per load so it works out in cost about the same as "normal" loads.

I checked Lyman to see what they recommended, and it turned out that their 475gr cast over 34.5 grs 5744 was the most accurate at 1425 fps from a Ruger No.1. So I went with that load for the 465gr, new (unfired) Hornady brass, WLRM primers and COL @ 3.1" (crimped in the groove provided because I wanted a uniform start pressure). I only loaded five of those because I didn't want to waste a lot of powder and bullets if it didn't turn out well. Going from speeds of over 2000 fps down to about 1400 fps in a .458 or .45-70 is somewhat of a guessing game to get on target. No holes after four shots. I said "Lord, this is my last shot, so please, if you will, help me out here". I had been moving the crosshairs way down so then opened the action and sighted through the bore so that the hole in the muzzle was showing the top of the target covering the muzzle exit by exactly 1/2. I checked the crosshairs and they were dead center on the target. I squeezed it off and, voila, a .458" hole 3.375" over center! Of course, I can now adjust the load to about +1.5" at 50 and zero at 95 yards. So, I didn't get a group yet, but next time we'll see if a decent group shows up!

All went over the chronograph at 15'. The first was from a clean barrel and slightly slower than the others, but all-in-all they were very close to Lyman's results when corrected to MV. They were: 1391, 1403, 1405, 1419 and 1401. Corrected to MV = 1413 fps. Close enough. Very pleasant to shoot at about 14.5 ft-lbs free recoil and 10 fps recoil velocity. Rifle is 10.3 lbs with scope sans ammo.

There was a fun part over that last shot. I'd also taken my new-to-me 12ga and some of those Challenger slugs (492grs) In my old Mossberg with a 24" they registered 1610 fps. I figured from the 18" I might get 1550. Anyway, before shooting the last 465gr from the .458, I fired one of the slugs with the green dot front sight a few inches over center on the same target that yet hadn't any .458" holes. It registered 1484 fps (corrected to MV = 1503 fps) at +3.375" at 50 yds. Before pulling the trigger on the last 465gr, I wondered "Now that would be very ironic if my last 465gr went through the 12ga hole"! I'd still have no evidence that the .458 was on paper! Low and behold... it didn't go through the 3/4" hole of the slug, missing it by 3/4" from the left edge of the slug to the right edge of the .458", and at the exact same height over center! The 12ga slug was 3/4" right of center (measured to center of hole), and the .458" hole was 1/2" left of center.

Thought this might be of interest to you as it vindicates your suggestion, and may be of interest to some others.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
That was better than listening to a NASCAR race on the radio !
Thanks for the report.
You seem to have a potentially good load.
Yikes on the price of powder nowadays !
That is 1.057 cents per grain of powder!
You might find best accuracy with less AA-5744 than 34.5 grains,
depends on Grace !
My favorite load for Daisy would be 32 cents of powder per pop at that powder price.
Your load is going to set you back 36.5 cents per shot.
Handloading has never been more expensive !
Lately, primers are 4 or 5 times more expensive than I remember, if I get lucky and hoard some before they are snatched.
Thank the DALDEDs, they make everything worse.
Consider plywood prices.
Double whammy on supply and demand.
Supply down because of the covid mess.
Demand up because of all the boarding-up of store front windows in DALDED-controlled localities where they encourage anarchy.
Dumb A$$ Lying Democrat Evil Doers.

Caballeri'a's bedding at the SC factory:















She could use pillars and a grip rod, and front of magazine box reinforcement.

Or her gold-leafed floorplate could be replaced with a plain one, like from the Alaskan or All Weather,
and her naked metal slipped into a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock,
except for Sunday go to meetings in walnut, of course.

Went to public range Wednesday to fire the PP/duplexed-BP loads with Marcella (M70).
Took Daisy (Ruger No. 1) along to finish off the 3 shots with Hornady brass and 83.0 grains of AA-2230.
Her barrel was left as fouled 10 days ago by 16 rounds of TSX,
stopped shooting when jammed by the Norma brass with 86.0 grains AA-2230 at 3.565" COL.
So rounds 17, 18, and 19 were as follows,
I will not push it any higher at 3.565" COL:

450-gr TSX, .458 WinMag 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel (.459" groove, 1:14" twist)

83.0 grains of AA-2230
Hornady Brass
F-215 primer
3.565" COL
2493 fps instrumental, 5-yard, 3-shot mean
2504 fps MV
for BC = .369
87 degrees F
3-shot extreme spread 3 fps, st. dev. = 1.6 fps

I cannot explain it except to say that when I saw the first two bullets make one hole at 50 yards,
I got excited and pulled the third shot !





The sun was low and I used the auxilliary lighting on the Caldwell G2 chronograph.

I then discovered that I had left the bolt for the other rifle at home.
So it was a 50-mile round trip for those three shots.
Worth it though it was for the freakishly good results,
the PP/duplexed BP loads will require another trip.

.458 Winchester Magnum:

Sir Jerry did 2368 fps MV with the 500-gr TBSS in a 24" JES barrrel using
83.0 grains AA-2460
50 degrees F
WW Super brass
F-215 primer
3.545" COL
KE = 6225 ft-lbs

Now we have 2504 fps MV with the 450-gr TSX in a 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel using
83.0 grains AA-2230
87 degrees F
Hornady brass
F-215 primer
3.565" COL
KE = 6265 fps

The Hornady brass jumped out of the Ruger No. 1 chamber when the lever was dropped.

I consider both of those loads to be MAXIMUM for the .458 WM+ when limited to 3.565" COL.
What are their pressures ? I do not know, except that they are at less pressure than would be required to equal them with a SAAMI .458 Lott.

Some cartridges with 65,000 PSI SAAMI MAP:
.22-250 Remington
.270 Winchester
.300 Weatherby Magnum
.338 Lapua Magnum
.375 RUM
.416 Remington Magnum

CIP homologation for the .338 Lapua Magnum allows it a PTmax of 4700 bar = 68,150 PSI

Now back to 480-grainers at 1300 fps to 2200 fps for gentlemanly and tropical loadings way less than 60,000 PSI,
effective killers emulating the full range from BPCR to the .450 NE, with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

480-gr PH paper patched with duplexed BP, .458 WinMag

The Saint Bagwell bullet started off as a muzzleloader bullet for 1000-yard match shooting.
It works in the Sharps 1874 .45-70 Govt. with 30" barrel, .458" groove, 1:18" twist: ~1300 fps MV with 66 grains of FFFg GOEX.
It works in the .458 Winchester Magnum M70 with 23" barrel, .458" groove, 1:14" twist: 1488 fps MV with 12 gr IMR-SR4759 + 74 grains of FFg GOEX, at 88 degrees F.

Here is some muzzleloader data, assumed to be for percussion similar to the British Volunteer rifles that started the NRA in the UK in 1859:



Again the .458 Winchester Magnum does not disappoint.
Or should we say that duplexed BP and paper patch with a lube cookie do not disappoint ?
88 degrees F
480-gr PH sized to .452" then paper-patched to .459":
3-shot group with 1 fps ES, st.dev. 0.6 fps:



Above is about 1.0 MOA at 50 yards. First three shots with the 480-grain PH,
after 3 fouling shots with the 530-gr BACo.
The scope was adjusted to an inch lower and a half inch left, then tried at 100 yards.
Scope was adjust after first three wind-spread shots at 100 yards.
Second 3-shot group at 100 yards is below, watching a wind gauge this time, it was about 0.50 MOA at 100 yards for three shots:



Finally, holding just above and 2 inches into the wind on an 8" gong at 200 yards, made it ring and swing with first shot from the PH.

I had to put the Caldwell G2 chronograph at 10 yards to get enough data, and there was still some lube and BP debris sprinkled on it,
scant though it was.
7 yards is as far as the Oehler 35P wires will reach.
Good enough.

BTW, the PH COL was 3.440", and that will easily eject if loaded single-shot style but not fired, in any standard .458 WM with 3.4" box.
The .458 WM Super Grade will eject the bluntest nosed FN solid at 3.550" COL and the pointy 450-gr TSX at 3.565" COL
if those are Loaded single-shot style but not fired.

BTBTW, the 530-gr BACo PP loaded to 3.580" COL worked well through the magazine of Marcella the M70 Classic .458 WM+ with 3.65" box length.
MV for 3-shot average with same charge used with the PH: 1381 fps.
The 480-grain PH paper-patched was about 100 fps faster, and more uniform !

BTBTBTW, I used a pretty tight taper "crimp" on all the 480-gr and 530-gr loads with paper patch.
One cannot spin the bullets in the case with fingers, as often recommended for paper-patched.
I only compressed the duplexed BP by about 0.3" before adding the lube cookie and seating the bullet.

Here is the .458 WM+BPCR:

Hey guys,

Has anyone used Hodgdon CFE 223 powder in their .458?
This powder seems to bring out the top velocities in many cartridges and I reckon it could be a really good powder to use in the mighty .458
If no-one has used it maybe someone could use Quickload to give a rough idea what we'd be looking at...?
And as a added bonus, and I quote: "Being a spherical powder, metering is superbly accurate."

This could be worth a look? What do you guys reckon?

Cheers,

Russ

Sir Russ, we did a little bit on CFE 223 on this thread on 2/26/21 or then-abouts.





Same load and rifle specifics using Alliant Power Pro VARMINT:



Federal offers this SAAMI-compliant load data with VARMINT: Note the 500-gr TBSS at + 2200 fps and less than 3..340" and less than 60,000 PSI:



CFE 223 works great for cleaning your barrel.
It requires greater recoil with heavier charges than can be done with favorites like AA-2230 and AA-2460 for same velocity,
and may not get as high velocity as possible with those two AA powders.
Use some CFE 223 to clean your rifle of TSX fouling ?

Everything is relative and it depends.
Using 3.340" or lesser COL will allow you to get higher velocities with less powder.

Note the 90 grains of compressed ball powder with the .458 Lott at 3.580" COL to get over 2300 fps with the 500-gr TBSS.
The same load could be used in the .458 WM+ at 3.575" COL.
But those .458 Lott ballistics were beaten by Sir Jerry at 3.545" COL with only 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in his 24"-barreled .458 WM+.

QuickLOAD is very unreliable for the .458 WinMag. It makes no allowances for throat.

Best approximation with QuickLOAD for the .458 WIN is to pretend that the .458 WinMag has a case capacity of 108 grains of water instead of 95.
95 grains water is the default case capacity for the .458 WinMag in QuickLOAD.

Regarding fouling: The paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads with a grease cookie are the cleanest shooting loads I have ever experienced.
It is like self cleaning with each shot.
The soft Norma brass really seals the chamber nicely, no smoking of case necks or any leakage into the action.
All the BP smoke goes out the barrel.
The grease cookie keeps the BP fouling in the barrel soft.
The paper patch of the next shot wipes it clean as a whistle.
Those Norma cases sure cleaned up easily with soapy water too, barely dirty, inside only.

Now to find an accurate single-ball, squirrel load for the .458 WM,
backed up with a shot-capsule load of #7-1/2, a most versatile birdshot, using Green Dot and Blue Dot powders, most likely.
Single-shot loading of ball and shot so as not to shatter a protruding shot capsule in the magazine of a bolt action.
Using Daisy will make sure I don't get carried away.



Then I want to do the .461"/480-gr hardcast FNGC
at about 1300 to 1800 fps with AA-5744 and AA-2495,
and 1800 to 2200 fps with all sorts of smokeless powders, Hodgdon Extreme and AA/Western Powders preferred.
All those should be SAAMI compliant,
not requiring any of the .458 WM+ super power use at all.
Maybe the hardcast MV should be limited to 2200 fps for best bullet performance, even if the .458 WM can beat that MV.

Funny how when you turn the light on the Lottites scurry away.

I took my Ruger Lott-the one with the Krieger and the soldered on open sights to the range again for a final 50yd zero test.It shot right in the bullseye and is ready for a 3 day bear hunt next week.I am using a light load of 67grs H4895 behind a 550gr Woodleigh soft.If I shoot the bear I will post a pic on this thread of bear and all in celebration of the 458 Lott.

Ah, yes, I remember that rifle well, from the anchor baby's website.
It is a Ruger RSM .458 Lott that was possibly scrubbed into a smoothbore, hence the Krieger barrel.
swiftshot = shootaway
How was that done ? Got rid of the recoil plate contraption and put a Remington-style-washer primary recoil lug between Krieger barrel and action,
and a secondary lug on the barrel ?
I don't recall if that was ever explained.
But I do recall that the screwed on sights had to be soldered after they loosened.
I just wonder if swiftshot is going to leave the barrel fouled after the zero check, before his bear hunt,
or will he give it a good scrubbing with JB paste ?

67 grains of H4895 with a 550-gr Woodleigh in the .458 Lott is 1 grain less powder than the starting load for a .458 WinMag.
No worries, H4895 is approved for reduced loads down to 60% of the maximum load for the cartridge.
swiftshot can go down to 46.2 grains of H4895.
I would recommend he use a filler with his reduced load in the .458 Lott.
There is going to be more than 0.3" height of air space over the powder, with 67 grains of H4895 in the .458 Lott.
68 grains of H4895 is not compressed in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN.

Q: What would the .458 Winchester Magnum say to the .458 Lott if cartridges could talk, as if brother to brother ?

A: "If hating me helps you hate yourself less, then I am there for you. That's what family is for."

Since her last cleaning, Daisy has fired 19 rounds of 450-gr TSX and was just starting to shoot up to snuff with the last 3 shots.
She will not be cleaned of copper fouling until I have tried these loads for relative POA at 50 yards and and 100 yards:

450-gr TSX with 83.0 grains AA-2230 and 3.57" COL
and
500-gr TBSS with 83.0 grains of AA-2460 and 3.55" COL

These will henceforth be known as the "Sir Jerry Soft & Solid Combo for the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Will add that to my list of "Memorial Loads" along with the John Buhmiller .416 Rigby load and George Hoffman .470 Nitro Express load.
Here's hoping gunner500 ain't dead, but Sir Jerry has been MIA for too long.

I don't think it has a recoil lug-it is free floating.I am not sure you can scrub the rifling off of a bore with JB.Perhaps you can do an experiment and see if it can be done.When I used very light loads with H4895 in my CZ 458WM things got really dirty but they worked fine-never used a filler.Yes you are correct the smith was hard headed and ignored my experiences with recoil and iron sights that moved.He just screwed them on on used red loctite to glue them.He screwed both rifles but listened to me on the third one and soldered everything.Now the third Ruger shoots awesome and has no issues with POI shifting all over the place many inches apart-neither does it have ugly black loctite showing on the sights..Here is my baby.







O yes.Another thing that must be done in order for the Lott or WM to shoot accurately is to use red loctite on the guard screws and torque them down with a big wrench or ratchet.It is best to use hex screws for this but it can be done with slotted crews and a socket bit.