Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Why magnums for deer & antelope

If I understand you correctly, the magnum cartridge will always out perform a "regular" cartridge. Does this mean a 130 lb goat is deader because a magnum velocity bullet struck it? Define out performs.

Some guys think that the more velocity a bullet has as it exits an animal - the better. These guys believe that their exiting bullet has a power advantage.
But this is only so much barnyard compost.

Take three antelope cartridges: 250 Savage, 25-06, and 257 Weatherby. Take three hunters each armed with a rifle of chambering described previously. Each hunter shoots a pronghorn antelope at say, 250 yards, which is fairly common.

The bullet goes in, destroys tissue, and exits the animal to sail away into the prairie. Each animal topples over shortly after the shot.
1) Which cartridge is deadlier?
2) Does it matter which bullet has the most energy and velocity as it sails away into the prairie?
3) Which cartridge out performed the rest?
Buck

In answer to your questions. 1) All listed cartridges are equally deadly. 2) If the bullets all sail away into the prairie, it makes no diff. to me. 3) Performance is measured by many things but you have listed only two in 1 & 2 above.

I like different rifles and cartridges because I like our sport and I like guns, all kinds of guns. Some are big and some are little. If you want to hunt antelope with a 458 Win Mag. that's fine. Go ahead and enjoy yourself. Why would you want to put me down for wanting to enjoy myself that way. If you want to use a 250 Savage go ahead. It's your choice. If I want to use something bigger and more powerful, why shouldn't I without being subject to your values about what is appropriate?

Let's get real Lever Lad, hunting these days is mostly about recreation and that's the way I enjoy it. don't put me down because I want to use something different than you do. It's a free country. Let me use the rifle and cartridge I want as long as it meets the legal requirements and let me enjoy myself without any need to justify my choices.

Frankly Y'all, it don't mean a thing. Dead is dead, bottom line. Use what you brung and eat the meat. Me I'll take along my puny .32 Winchester Special and eat just as good as the next guy with the latest gee-wizz cartridge to come down the pike. As long as we both eat and have fun that's all that matters.

Did I mention I hunt and regularly kill BIG hogs here with a .357 Rossi 92SRC trapper Carbine, yep dead is dead.

This all seems pretty simple to me. Rifles are cool. I like to have several of them. I like to have different rifles to tinker with to come up with just the right combination. I like to find out for myself how much difference there is between a 7-08 and a 7WSM. On top of that I like the extra margin of error, whether real or percieved, that they provide.


If we were all to follow your line of reasoning we would all be shooting iron sighted surplus mauser rifles in 7x57 because it is "Good Enough". We would all be driving those crappy little Euro cars because they get us where we want to go just the same as my pickup does, and uses less fuel on the way. While we are at it why don't we all form a small community, live under one roof, share the same clothes, and sing Cumbiah.

Let's take this argument to it's logical conclusion. A magnum is not much better than a modern standard round, so we should all use modern standard rounds. A modern standard round is not much better than an in-line muzzleloader, so we should all use in-line muzzleloaders. In-line muzzleloaders are not that much beter than percussion cap blackpowder rifles, so we should only use blackpowder rifles. Blackpowder rifles are not much better than compound bows, so we should all use compound bows. Compound bows are not much better than recurve bows, so we should all use recurves. Recurves are not that much better than spears, so we should all use spears. Spears are not that much better than throwing sharp rocks, so from now on all rifles should be traded in on sharp rocks.

Maybe we can get Rick to replace the "Rifles" page with "Rocks". The "Custom Rifles and Wildcats" will be called "exotic marble and soapstones".

I buy fast rifles for the same reason I bought my big pickup, live in my big house, and eat steak instead of hamburger - because I can and I like it!

There is much more to rifle/cartridge selection than plain logic. If I were to argue that logic were the only reason to buy/use a gun I would play hell getting another new rifle past my wife.

lever lad wrote:



Depends where you're talking about -- in northern New England "got your deer yet?" is almost always singular but in the mid-Atlantic and SOUTHeast it's another story.

I think in some counties in Va. if you used all the available bonus tags available for archery, muzzleloader and firearm seasons (3 mos. total) you'd be over 100 deer for the year. I've hunted a few times with a friend who has 160 acres and fans out his management tags like a dealer in Vegas. They shoot about 15 deer a year on that property, mostly just hunting weekends and holidays from the same fixed stands.

I know there are other states that make that look piddling, imagine 2 whitetails a day for 3 or 4 months.

John

Don't usually get into this type of discussion, but I kinda like Boddington.

Your first statement about out-of-staters and magnums, if I had paid out thousands of dollars to go on a antelope or mule deer hunt with no experience of the animal or area I would want to bring something along that I was sure would do the job also. It's always good to find something interesting though.

Col. Boddington did say big mule deer are more difficult to anchor then average ones, I suspect that is true, after all it only makes sense. He also recommended the big 30 caliber magnums for these monsters, at ranges in excess of 400+ yards. He also recommended about everything from the 30-30 up to the big 30s depending on the range and other circumstances brush, woods, etc.

This does not match your experience, talk about your "self proclaimed experts". Writers are considered experts by the reading public because editors pay them to write so we will buy the mags. Really haven't heard of any that only hunt in their own states, but in many states each year, probably because they like to hunt, like to write and it takes care of their families needs.

In each of your examples you only consider parameters that are perfect for your favorite calibers, try getting a "double lung shot" on that 350 pounder at 350 yards with your 30-30. Now remember if you miss it may be several years before you can go after it again.

The reason I bought my first magnum, and all of my magnums since?

"Magnum" sounds cool... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And I think that is as good a reason as any.

Sir,

It appears that I have failed to make the point that I intended to make. The issue here is not what makes a magnum, but rather Lever Lad questioned why there seems to be an influx of Eastern hunters coming to the Western states armed with the latest "Super Magnums" for deer and antelope. At least, that is what I gathered from his post. I thought that he was referring to the 7mm RUM, .300 Rum, .30 & .338/.378 Wby...et.al. I personally feel that most eastern hunters going west would be better served by a .270 7mm, .30-06 the the Ultra magnums. A shot thru the lungs from a 7mm/08 is far more effective than three shots from a .338/378 WBY in the air. IMHO it doesn't take a Lazzaroni "Warbird" to harvest an antelope.

On the other hand, I'm sure that some eastern hunters consider that taking 1 or 2 weeks vacation, the expenses travelling out and back, the cost of a non-resident license, they like to take all the insurance they can to ensure that they don't return empty-handed. I certainly don't have all the answers - Just my $.02 worth. the9.3Guy

P.S. And yes you are right, the work is sometimes hard and ALWAYS boring... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lever,

Couple of reasons mag's exist, one is to increase the zero range of the gun. Now I don't mean the range you can zero at, I mean the amount of distance you can hold on zero and still hit the vital zone. 3 to 4" from where the cross hair's are. This is what common sense folk like, and this is because if they have common sense they know that past 350 yds they couldn't reliably hit anything. So if they have a gun that they don't have to worry about bullet drop it just makes life easier. Second side to that is what range you normally see your game at. I hunt mule deer in Western Kansas and 350 is the range I usually end up dealing with. I could try belly crawling but I end up getting sandbur slivers in my hands, and knees. They stay with you about two months, not good. I like having the energy of my 06 at 200, with my 300WSM at 300 to 350. Other than that I would have stuck with the 06.

Now, there are power crazy nut's who just got to have the biggest baddest gun out there. We'll put those in the aspiration group. they Aspire to be envied, the only problem is that if a many know's what he's doing, then he knows that they won't shoot that STW more than a dozen times at the range cause they can't take the kick. Some of us develope the steel not to flinch after ten rounds of heavy lead from a supermag but not many. I won't own anything bigger than a 300 WSM for regular beasts. I'd go to a 338 for dangerous game like brown bear but since I don't hunt africa that's about it.

The one thing that bothered me about this post was the statement of shooting something at 1000 yds. I know some can do it, but not reliably on a small target (kill zone of 3" or less). World record is 2.6 inch group with a 50 cal., don't know about other cal's. Most cartridges don't have enought energy to make the terminal performance needed for a quick kill at that range. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it should be done. Although, I have to admit it's neat as hell to hit something that far out (I've done it, don't make it a practice, I just had to see if I could do it).

One of my favorite topics, this magnum stuff. I read an article by CB sometime back. He said something to the effect that you need 1500 ft.lbs. of energy @ 500 yds. ( !!! ) to be adequately armed for the big Rocky Mtn. Mule Deer. I almost choked on that.
You see, I've been around for a while. I've done lots of deer hunting in the wide open spaces of the west. I know all about how popular the 7 mm and .300 Magnums are for western mulies. Hit the high country of any of the better big mulie ranges and watch the fun sometime. Typically, the hunter is on foot, in a Jeep, or on horseback. The buck of his dreams gets up and starts heading into the next drainage. Our boy hits the ground with his butt, and opens fire. No laser, no nothing. He just opens fire. If the bullet hits low and behind, he just holds higher and leads more. Until he's out of ammo, or connects. I've had experienced hunters tell me they throw a box of shells in their hat before they start shooting. They do lots of shooting, and not much hitting. Pronghorn hunting is much the same.
The best I know, don't do it this way. They use the best optical gear they can buy. They spot the buck first. Not the other way around. They stay in, or near cover, not on top of the ridge. Of a handfull of real throphy hunters, those with several 30 inch racks to their credit, that I know personally, only two use magnums. One specializes in those long, sniping style shots at standing, undistrubed animals. He and his partner have never lost one, right up to 800 yds. The other simple carries a .300 Win Mag. "just in case." He rarely kills one much over 200 yds. All the others use common 30'06's, the .270, the 7X57, and the .25-06.
Why ? One reason is they shoot them better. Both the Magnum shooters, mentioned above, shoot their rifles alot. I learned, long ago, that to be as good with a magnum, I must shoot more, much more, with it, than with the lighter rounds. To take advantage of it's range extension I must practice at those ranges regularly. In fact, if anything over 300 yds. is to be done, then you must practice at those ranges. There simply is no other way.
Magnums tend to weigh more. Not a disadvantage for Jeep and horseback hunters, but for a walker, read that a climber, extra weight is real burden. Again, long experience has taught me to leave the long, heavy guns in camp if lots of walking is in order.
Last of all, I've learned that the standard rounds, with the right loads, work very well all the way to at least 400 yds. The real variable is the shooter. If you can't stay on a 10 inch circle, from a field position, at that range, you can't really use a magnum's extra power. Again, lots of field time has taught me that when I start to get to the 300 yd. line, I'm entering the area where I need help with ranging the critter, and I need to start making wind calls.
As to really needing the extra power, I don't buy it. An undistrubed buck dies far easier than a running, pumped up one. They are far easier to hit. A poor hit with either, assuming the bullet expands, will result in a dead deer much of the time. The magnum, all things being equal, will kill faster at extended ranges. But you are going to have to look for both. Every once in a great while a buck will travel with a good chest hit. With a gut shot, sometimes quite a ways. Again, with the right loads, and some tracking knowledge, I've seen little difference. E

L.L.

I think by now, you've seen enough posts to understand the reason that Magnums are successful in the market (even with deer hunters). Some folks just want to believe that the extra power gives them an edge. That edge, be it more energy @ 447.7 yds. or a slightly longer PBR is largely useless in most situations.

That "story" was created by the sales departments of gun & ammo mfrs. for a reason. (Sell stuff) And writers who tout those calibers are at least in part, supporting the goal of the mfrs. and of course their editors.

Fact is, the "story" works, it sells rifles, ammo, and magazines. The consumer walks away from the counter with a shiny new whiz-bang thinking to himself "that deer I missed last year won't get away this time, he he he" and everybody up and down the food chain is happy.

Now.........Is there any harm in all of this hoopla?? There just might be.

The unsophisticated shooter reads the ads and goes out and buys one of these. He thinks to himself "boy this thing drops 14" less than my old 270 @ 400 yards" Then without understanding anything about PBR or holdover he goes out and bangs away. The results are often badly wounded game. Also, while many expert shooters (claim) to be recoil proof, the average joe is not. This also contributes to poor shooting.

BTW: none of these flaws should be considered the exclusive domain of the eastern hunters who come out west to spend their time and money. A lot of cannons are sold to "bubbas" out west as well.

JimF

there be bubbas all over the southeast, too. some of 'em know how to use those long-range whizz-bangers and costly scopes and range-finders, and know when and where to use 'em: during the rut on power-line rights-of-way; cotton field edges; huge alfalfa and winter wheat fields. some don't know how to use 'em. the rest of us hunt small fields, timber edges, deep woods and river bottoms, usually with appropriate rifles. no huge fields at my deer camp. rifles used by members are: .243, .308, .300 savage, .270, .30-30, .30-'06, 7mm rem. mag (mine, 'cause it's what i had; and it is appropriate for some long alleys in pine plantations). that bunch that hunts our little club wouldn't know what a whiz banger is, much less buy one. betcha the average age of the rifles used is 20 years or more. only three high-dollar scopes in the whole bunch, too: a b&l elite 4200 and two leupie variables. it's the huntin' for that bunch, not the equipment. very basic stuff.

A) I agree with E's assessment
B) another reason: the one rifle guy.

Unfortunately, I'm in the B) category right now. I need a rifle that I can use for anything from coyote to brown bear. Elk, bear and mule deer being the primary (most frequent) game. BIG mule deer are a hell of a lot bigger than a fork horn. Better than double the weight. 350 pounds is common for a big mature buck and near 400 happens every once in a while though I've only seen two on the ground that would fit the latter category. Elk are of course bigger with bigger bones. Bear aren't necessarily bigger, but do have much heavier bone.

IF (the big if) you can shoot a "magnum" then why not? My 338 Ultra is my only rifle, so of course, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on antelope (or coyote <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). I do have my wife's 30-06 at my disposal, but I don't shoot it as well, so should I use it because it is more "appropriate?"

I agree with what you guys are saying about the dudes who are compensating with a magnum that they simply can't shoot, but don't lump ALL magnum shooters in this category, please!

Big Stick and Flinch can both attest that I have no problem sitting down with the Ultra and plinking away for 20 or 30 shots. No, I'm not going to launch 100 shots downrange at prairie dogs with it. Oh, and I don't have a big problem hitting what I aim at (grin). I've yet to miss even one shot at a big game animal at ranges out to 420 yards (knock on wood). Caveat: I've only had the rifle a year and it's only been responsible for 4 big game animals (quite a few varmints too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

Muley Stalker:

IF (the big if) you can shoot a "magnum" then why not?

Well, that's the crux of it right there, especially in your context. With your skills and application, you have an appropriate choice.

However, I think that L.L.'s point was more towards the Pa. hunter who maybe already has say a .270 or .308. He is going on a mule deer or antelope hunt and gets the idea (possibly from Col./Gen./Reserve/Retired) that he is undergunned if he does not have a 300 magnum or some such. The rifle that he already has (and hopefully can hit with) is way more that enough for the game specified. The long range situation is simply beyond the skill of 90% of those hunters.

The problem lies in "FAILURE TO READ THE INSTRUCTIONS" ie: ballistic tables and understanding them. Honest, these guys think that magnums "shoot flat to 500 yds"

My long winded, multiple-posted take is that L.L. is correct in his assumption that the 'magnum press" is doing the arms industry a great favor but possibly doing the average hunter a disservice.

Nobody said you wuz average........... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JimF

shoot, there's even a magnum i don't consider a MAGNUM: that's the 7mm rem mag. i think it's just a nice, balanced, flat-shooting round that anybody who can shoot a .30-'06 well also could shoot well. but it IS a little much for smallish deer at sub 200-yard ranges.

Jim, I certainly don't disagree. I don't think though that these same guys know what 500 yards is, either!

I'll be the first to admit that if I didn't get such a giggle (yeah, sick SOB <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) out of how the ultra slams stuff, that I wouldn't be shooting it. Except for maybe brown bear, it really isn't an appropriate choice. I really do get a kick out of shooting it though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. The day may come when I don't and I have no problem stepping down to something more reasonable.

Hell, a .30-06 with the right bullets is going to be bad juju for any bear of any type, in the right hands. I freely admit that! Also, not to say I wouldn't feel undergunned with one after brown bear, but it'd still do the job and the fact of the matter is that would be a once in a lifetime (if at all) hunt.

I also don't mean to imply I have exceptional skills. Maybe better than some, but likely not even average within the campfire circle!

I guess I'll also note that most of the crowd who can't shoot their .300 mag's won't necessarily shoot a .270 much better. The "one in a paper plate at 100 and she's good to 500 yards" mentality isn't limited to magnum shooters -- unfortunately.

Another observation: I don't think "out of staters" have any corner on the market of magnumitis.

E.

I believe the article you are referring to said 1500 lbs. of impact energy, so if your shot was at 500 yds. your statement would be true. However the same article recommends the 7mm-08, 7X57, and 308 out to 200 yds. or a little more. I don't think that means if you shoot a deer at 200 yds with a 30-06 you are severly overgunned or that if you are using a 300 Savage you are undergunned, it's just a reference and one man's opinion.

Again the articles are written for everyone not just the very experienced hunter. Don't get me wrong I am not a magnum fan, the only one I ever owned was a Rugar Super Blackhawk. Don't have any plans to buy one except maybe another Super Blackhawk, traded the one I had for a boat, dumb huh! Don't like the recoil, the blast, the weight, the price of ammo, and they have about 4-6 inches to much barrel for me, but that's me.

I see nothing wrong with someone buying a 257 or 270 Weatherby for a plains Antelope or Muledeer hunt if that's what they want, can't really see why anyone else would. Are these needed, probably not. They are sure not going to hurt though.

I'm more interested in why so many people will not just shoot what they like and quit being so concerned what the rest of us do
I don't shoot my Mags any better or worse than I do my 280 or my 308 and I have never had a shot over 300 yards. I did one time wound an animal and had to do a long tracking job, but he ended up hanging in my camp. This particular animal was shot with a magnum, but that is not the reason for the bad shot- I took a shot I should not have taken on a running Elk who picked just the wrong time to jump a log and turn to the right while doing so.
In my case "need" has little to do what rifle I use on any given day- I use what I like or what fits my mood at the time. Since my money paid for the rifle and the ammo, as well as the rest of the trip I figure I can pretty well ignore the opinions of those who don'tcare for my choice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Tracks, I absolutely agree with you 100%. What difference does it make what I shoot as long as it is legal. If I shoot a 458 Win. Mag. on antelope, does that make me either less a man or less a hunter than somebody who shoots a 250 Savage? I don't think so. I shoot what I want, when I want and when the mood fits me.