Maybe you’ve seen it in the media: that map of the U.S. painted with blobs of yellow,orange and red. It shows drought – but how do we know which colors go where? Who decides? What does it mean for you? Read below to find out.
The two easiest for me to see and understand are the "CPC soil moisture models" and the "USGS weekly streamflow" both of which are percentile rankings.
Right now our area is in the 1-5 percentile of soil moisture and 1% of normal streamflow. Those are pretty low measurements by any standard.
It may be a little bit of scientific mumbo jumbo..................................but it's decent mumbo jumbo for what that's worth.
Gotcha - Bad chartsmanship then - you define it on the chart and don't make people go elsewhere that info. It would be an even better chart if they didn't call it a drought chart and instead covered their scale. Many of those white areas (including mine) are above normal rain this year.
Last edited by Pugs; 06/23/21.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
we got almost 4.5 inches here in North Florida yesterday. Until recently, we were in a drought. It's cyclical.
Officially, we've had 4.344".......................since Jan 1.
If it doesn't rain for a month back east, folks are in a drought. It's based on averages.
We haven't had significant rain in about 3 months now. A couple of events at 0.01'-0.02", but nothing to change soil moisture or stream flow.
I bet that 4.5" soaked your area pretty good. But, if it doesn't rain there again for a few weeks, you'll be in a drought again.
Ours, even with a good storm, will likely continue into next year because our place is too dry to catch up anytime soon. Maybe, and a big maybe, if we have a good snow season next winter, we'll come out of this drought.
Our cycles just last a little bit longer than back east.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
I've often wondered why instead of our foreign military adventures we haven't spent our money right here. I would imagine for way less money and heartbreak we could have gotten Great Lakes water over the hump and into the arid West. Also considering all the angst over sea level and coastal erosion. We have mountains of rocks that could have been moved to build sea walls such as Galveston built over 100 years ago. We have plenty of water and plenty of rocks and plenty of people that should be working on it.
That sort of idea is why the Colorado River now disappears into the sand, well short of its original destination, leaving those who formerly depended on it downstream in the lurch, and politicians deciding winners and losers where the stolen water ends up. IMO, desalinization of seawater is the logical solution to Kali’s problem, but that takes a lot of energy, and we all know how evil most energy is. Dams can help, but they’ve managed to screw those up as well. Nothing is going to help in the wilderness areas except Time. Twas ever thus, and ever shall be. Futzing around with natural cycles is a fool’s errand.
Check out what I wrote. Was proposing moving excess Great Lakes water across the divide and rocks to the coast instead of spending our national treasure on foreign adventures that have brought us and the world nothing but misery.
How much excess water do you think there is in the Great Lakes? There are thousands of rivers and streams flowing into the lakes, but the only real outlet is the St.Lawrence River that flows to the Atlantic. Each year all of the water flowing into the Great Lakes only adds about 1% to the volume of water in the system (per The Great Lakes Guide. I don't know how to do links, sorry). That 1% makes its way through the St. Lawrence to the Atlantic.
If you were to divert the St. Lawrence to the western states, it likely wouldn't be a drop in the bucket compared to need. Canada might have a bit of a problem with the idea of diverting the river. Pretty major waterway that runs through Canada.
If you leave the St. Lawrence alone and build a major pipeline, say, from Chicago; how long will the Great Lakes last? How much water do you propose to pump west? Lake Superior would be okay, it flows into Lake Huron by way of the St. Marys river. Lake Huron and Lake Michigan are really the same lake, so that is where you will drain your water from. As you pull water out of the system at Chicago, water is still flowing out of Lake Huron through the St. Clair river. Right up until you drop the lake level in Huron/Michigan below the level of the bottom of the St. Clair. Now the St.Clair no longer flows into Lake St. Clair. The Detroit River will continue to flow out of Lake St. Clair, into Lake Erie, until Lake St. Clair drops to the level where the Detroit River dries up. The Niagara River will keep pulling water out of Erie, and into Lake Ontario. Lake Erie will drop to the point where the Niagara no longer flows. Of course the St. Lawrence river is still going to be flowing. Right up until the level of Lake Ontario drops to below outlet level.
I don't know how long it would take for the above to happen, but it would happen. Keep in mind that the system gets only about 1% new water each year. Probably wouldn't really take all that long. Once you start lowering the lakes, what happens to the local aquifers? I'm about 10 miles inland from Saginaw Bay on Lake Huron. My well is 44 feet. When the water level of Lake Huron drops about 20 feet, Saginaw Bay is gone. Only thing left would be the shipping channel, but there wouldn't be enough depth for ships. Can't imagine that isn't going to affect my aquifer.
Let's not forget that Canada has a fairly vested interest in the Great Lakes system. I don't imagine they would agree to drain the lakes.
I do agree with you that we spend way too much money on foreign ventures.
Maybe you’ve seen it in the media: that map of the U.S. painted with blobs of yellow,orange and red. It shows drought – but how do we know which colors go where? Who decides? What does it mean for you? Read below to find out.
The two easiest for me to see and understand are the "CPC soil moisture models" and the "USGS weekly streamflow" both of which are percentile rankings.
Right now our area is in the 1-5 percentile of soil moisture and 1% of normal streamflow. Those are pretty low measurements by any standard.
It may be a little bit of scientific mumbo jumbo..................................but it's decent mumbo jumbo for what that's worth.
Gotcha - Bad chartsmanship then - you define it on the chart and don't make people go elsewhere that info. It would be an even better chart if they didn't call it a drought chart and instead covered their scale. Many of those white areas (including mine) are above normal rain this year.
Yeah, I wondered about the white areas, but then I figured they're just accounting for drought, not total rainfall/snowfall. And yeah, a better chart would try to explain it right there, at least that's what I was taught. Probably another case of appealing to the lowest common denominator? Some folks just like the pretty pictures and say "Ooooh and Ahhhh".
The thing is, they seem to have done their research, they just don't present it so well. There's a whole lot there to communicate though.
Last edited by Valsdad; 06/23/21.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
The charts are pretty accurate to what is seen on the landscape around here.
100 hour fuels at low levels many have never seen.
Piñon juniper, cedar stands dying off.
Springs drying up that some of the old timers have never seen run dry. No tank water.
I guess the saving grace to some of it is, a lot of our fires haven’t grown to potential due to having no fine/ladder fuels to cary them.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of our wildlife is going to be at a breaking point real soon. In a lot of areas, producers are the only thing keeping wildlife.
got a whole ocean just sitting there. Desalinize it and pump it to Lake Mead and supporting reservoir systems.
It should be bi-partisan support, even at a cost that is considered staggering.
All of that so "we" can support folks there in almost all of SoCal, Southern NV, low elevation AZ, who want a lawn, two showers a day, a car wash every week, non desert plants in the yard, an uncovered pool evaporating in the low humidity, fuggin giant spraying fountains in a freakin' desert (which evaporate even in winter due to the extremely low humidity).
No thank you.
Why not force LA, San Diego, Riverside and San Bernadino county, Las Vegas, Phoenix metro area etc to reclaim their sewage water, pump it back upstream and over the mountains, pass it through some marshes and put it back in the rivers?
Oh, and maybe put some limits on growth? (oops, no one wants to hear that)
Last edited by Valsdad; 06/23/21.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Tying the water problem to foreign adventuring is a good diversion, but that sort of environmental adventuring is just a bad, bad idea. There is no excess water in the Great Lakes, there’s just the water that the climate systems have put there. The stuff Valsdad mentioned is only the beginning of sorrows that could be unleashed. What about the humongous impact on the places the diverted water would travel through for starters?
Speaking of diversions, one smart thing the Canucks did was block the Garrison Diversion project. As I understand it, water from the Garrison Dam in ND ( and maybe the next one downstream in SD?) would have been pumped over into the Red River Valley of ND/MN for irrigation. Run-off would have gone into the Red, and Eventually into Hudson's Bay.
Concern over invasive/non-native species........but mostly over chemicals- insecticides, fertilizers, etc.
Still, the water came in handy for Bakken.
I do wonder however about the species thing. Has it been long enough since the last glaciation for species to diverge/establish that much differently?
The Missouri used to drain into Hudson. See that big bend in the middle of ND? That's where the glacier changed the river's course. I grew up there, and my Dad was the crane operator for the first four surge towers built at Garrison.
Interesting country.
Desalinazation using Nuke works, as the Saudis and others have proven.
Of course, not watering a gazzilion lawns and golf courses would improve things somewhat also.
I remember the tv show - guys harvesting OLD Redwood trees that had fallen . They would put little copper plates on the tree rings going back in history - some going back to the days Christ walked the earth . I think they said one drought in the Northern California region last for 150 years .
PRESIDENT TRUMP 2024/2028 !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Bristoe The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
When I first moved to California in 1989 it was the start of a 5 year drought. The week the drought broke I remember taking my son to daycare in the heavy rain. The children were all clustered at the doors and windows looking out. They were all too young to have seen water fall from the sky. I don't recall the local water district calling for reductions in water use during those five years. Nor do we have any restrictions today. The city of Santa Barbara has a modern desalination plant which has been unused for many years because the locals don't want more people moving there, and limiting the water supply prevents new hookups. Most of the hand wringing I'm seeing about the drought is about hydroelectric for power generation. After driving all the power plants out of state the solar advocates are coming to grips with the fact that the sun doesn't shine at night. I'm hoping for some "green outs" in the run up to the gubernatorial recall vote so I can go up and down the street reminding my neighbors these situations arise from policy decisions, not mother nature.
got a whole ocean just sitting there. Desalinize it and pump it to Lake Mead and supporting reservoir systems.
It should be bi-partisan support, even at a cost that is considered staggering.
All of that so "we" can support folks there in almost all of SoCal, Southern NV, low elevation AZ, who want a lawn, two showers a day, a car wash every week, non desert plants in the yard, an uncovered pool evaporating in the low humidity, fuggin giant spraying fountains in a freakin' desert (which evaporate even in winter due to the extremely low humidity).
No thank you.
Why not force LA, San Diego, Riverside and San Bernadino county, Las Vegas, Phoenix metro area etc to reclaim their sewage water, pump it back upstream and over the mountains, pass it through some marshes and put it back in the rivers?
Oh, and maybe put some limits on growth? (oops, no one wants to hear that)
its not just growth, its the agriculture of California and the other regions. They have pumped the aquifers so much that the state has literally dropped like 2 inches. I could care less about a guy being able to wash his car, but when they are draining lakes, rivers and aquifers dry trying to keep food growing to feed this nation, then its time to address what needs to be done to keep it going.
We don't think twice about running oil pipelines to provide us with cheaper oil. A water pipeline to provide Americans, especially American farmers, with the same water the rest of us take for granted doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Last edited by KFWA; 06/23/21.
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
got a whole ocean just sitting there. Desalinize it and pump it to Lake Mead and supporting reservoir systems.
It should be bi-partisan support, even at a cost that is considered staggering.
All of that so "we" can support folks there in almost all of SoCal, Southern NV, low elevation AZ, who want a lawn, two showers a day, a car wash every week, non desert plants in the yard, an uncovered pool evaporating in the low humidity, fuggin giant spraying fountains in a freakin' desert (which evaporate even in winter due to the extremely low humidity).
No thank you.
Why not force LA, San Diego, Riverside and San Bernadino county, Las Vegas, Phoenix metro area etc to reclaim their sewage water, pump it back upstream and over the mountains, pass it through some marshes and put it back in the rivers?
Oh, and maybe put some limits on growth? (oops, no one wants to hear that)
its not just growth, its the agriculture of California and the other regions. They have pumped the aquifers so much that the state has literally dropped like 2 inches. I could care less about a guy being able to wash his car, but when they are draining lakes, rivers and aquifers dry trying to keep food growing to feed this nation, then its time to address what needs to be done to keep it going.
We don't think twice about running oil pipelines to provide us with cheaper oil. A water pipeline to provide Americans, especially American farmers, with the same water the rest of us take for granted doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Well, there is the types of crops being grown. Like almonds. Water thirsty but so are others.
And they're pumping aquifers so much because the surface waters are all accounted for. Much of which goes to cities (see rocket scientist's post about no water restrictions)
And the reason for all that agriculture is..............................growth. Not just here in the West, but all over the country, and the world. If the markets weren't there, they wouldn't be using all that water to grow stuff.
But no, folks just keep makin' more and more babies. Why stop at replacement levels of 2.1? Let's have four or five. Then they can build new houses in the desert for them. And new pipelines?
And your last statement about taking water for granted? That's another part of the big picture issue. Consumers and growers have historically taken water for granted. Well, maybe not some growers in areas without irrigation. Just turn on a tap and water flows. And it hardly costs anything. Even when it's basically stolen from areas that have water to be moved to areas that don't.
Believe me, I grew up where it doesn't rain for months at times. And I've lived back East where one doesn't have to have a hose for the garden. It just rains every so often and waters it. Now I'm on a well, so I try to do things differently than most of the rest of America. Small lawn for the dogs, the rest of the yard except the garden beds is dirt. Plain old dirt with dry grass from the spring. The garden beds are heavily mulched and may get a drip system installed this year. I'm even getting used to using the dishwasher to wash a full load of dishes on the short cycle to save some water.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
I've often wondered why instead of our foreign military adventures we haven't spent our money right here. I would imagine for way less money and heartbreak we could have gotten Great Lakes water over the hump and into the arid West. Also considering all the angst over sea level and coastal erosion. We have mountains of rocks that could have been moved to build sea walls such as Galveston built over 100 years ago. We have plenty of water and plenty of rocks and plenty of people that should be working on it.
That horrifically bad idea has been proposed multiple times. Thankfully the Great Lake states have told the whiny overpopulated arid West to go pound sand.
Moving Eastern water over the Rockies is a BAD idea from every perspective. 1: environmental impact from lowered stream flows in the East, including changes to estuaries and ocean fish populations.
Colorado River as case in point.
2: transfer of even more invasive species to the West.
One would have to rewrite the entire national code as per water rights. The water in Michigan and all other parts East of the Rockies belongs where it is and in the rivers where it flows. It belongs to the people where it falls and flows.
The West has been desert for milenia. The west has plenty of water to support population levels as they were in the 50s. Instead of moving water to the West, we should be moving people out of the West.
Immigration should be stopped NOW, and all illegals deported.
America achieved zero population growth fifty years ago. All population increases in America since 1970 are due to immigration, legal and not.
Without the increased population in the West due to immigration, there would be no water shortage. Some farms might have to reduce acreage, because stream flows were over allocated based on heavy rain in recent years. But no towns would be short of water.
That is where water rights law come into effect. Those properties with older water rights get the water. Newer projects with more recent water rights get to pound sand, literally.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
Without the increased population in the West due to immigration, there would be no water shortage. Some farms might have to reduce acreage, because stream flows were over allocated based on heavy rain in recent years. But no towns would be short of water.
That is where water rights law come into effect. Those properties with older water rights get the water. Newer projects with more recent water rights get to pound sand, literally.
that bold part is pretty important, eh?
Last edited by Valsdad; 06/23/21.
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men. In it is contentment In it is death and all you seek (Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
Supposed to be 110 here on Sunday and triple digits for a week at least. Only 67 at the Oregon coast at the same time. Good time to be there and not here.
Yep. If things continue to converge, Sunday will be the hottest day Medford has ever seen in June.
We've had 9 of the 10 warmest years (by average temperature) ever recorded in the last 10 years and either 5 or 6 of those were new records beating the previous, so not just hot, but still an upward trend. [bleep] politics, this is not a good thing.
We did get substantial rain out of a pretty hefty thunder storm last night, I'd guess half or 3/4ths of an inch here in under 2 hours. That was pretty welcome. Hopefully the lightning didn't leave any sleepers to pop up as things start to dry out. Been thinking 'bout some hiking in the cascades but that is a good reason to keep an eye peeled for smokes and not go anywhere that doesn't have at least 2 exits.
Tom
Last edited by T_O_M; 06/23/21.
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.
Only a few inches of rain from February until about September. And then October is normally a dry month anyway.
I was able to get so much done then. Me and the wife poured about 45 yards of concrete in several different sets. Stripped off 28 squares of shingles, added a master bedroom, bath and closet to the house, tied all that in. The whole house got redecked with 5/8 cdx and new Carriage House shingles me and her installed. Painted the new part and repainted the rest of the place.
A lot of mold and mildew died off. You subtract 30 inches of rain.
Didnt have to mow
My favorite arrowhead field, the farmer declared crop loss, so it got plowed twice in two seasons.
