Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Working up a new load for a Savage 99 in 308

I snagged a Savage 99 in .308 this week. It's down on the bench waiting to be scoped-- probably a Simmons 3-9 variable . I've got 500 rounds of Lake City once-fired brass on the way, and I'll probably use CCI Magnum Large Rifle Primers. That's what I've got a lot of, and they seem to do well in less-that-fullhouse loads in the cold.

The questions left are powder and bullet. Right now, I've got the following on the shelf:

Speer 130 GR SP
Hornady 150 GR SP
150 GR RN
165 GR SP
165 GR SPBT
170 GR RN
180 GR SP

H4895, IMR 4895, BL-C(2), and probably a speck or two of IMR 3031

This will be used for KY whitetail-- 90% of the time the shots will be under 150 yards.

Here's what's been rolling around in my mind so far:

1) I'm figuring any pointy hunting round 150 GR or bigger will do, and I'm thinking that if I load 150 GR into a military case, I'll get better-than-'06 performance. The 165's have been good performers for me. The 180's have never let me down either, but I'll take lower recoil when I can.

2) I was using 150 RN in my 30-30 last year and had an absolutely confounding experience with a doe. Half the reason I grabbed a lever .308 was to get a lever gun that had more punch than the Thutty^2.

So am I splitting hairs here or what? Should I just load up 20 of each and go have a ball at the range? Am I missing anything?

Stick with the 165 gr, your choice of bullet type. The 4895 will work, but you wil get better performance out of 4064. Remember to reduce your loads because of the thicker military brass, At least 1 gr under the published loads

No, Shaman... I don't think you're "splitting hairs". I think you want the most accurate, best load for your .308 Savage Model 99. I want the SAME thing from my Model 99, too.

In the latest "Lyman Reloading Handbook", Lyman engineers say that HODGDON's VARGET rifle powder was "the most accurate" in their tests.

In the little Hodgdon "Basic Reloaders Manual 2003"... a "freebe" pick up item at most gun stores that sell reloading equipment & supplies... Hodgdon indicates the maximum load of 47.0 grains (compressed load) of VARGET in Winchester cartridge cases using a Federal 210M primer in .308 Winchester caliber yields a muzzle velocity (24-inch barrel) of 2937 fps with a chamber pressure of 50,300 CUP (C-opper U-nits of P-ressure) using a Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tip Bullet. The don't show any of the bullets you listed in your post. Changing ANY of the components of this load may create a dangerous load in your rifle. Therefore, you should drop down to a "starting load" if you use this loading information and even a single DIFFERENT component.

The maximum load of H4895 listed in the Hodgdon Booklet for a 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet & using the same components (as with the above listed Varget rifle powder) in a .308 Winchester is 45.5 grains of H4895 that had a chamber pressure of 51,000 CUP yielding a MV of 2870 fps.

THESE LOADs MAY NOT BE SAFE IN YOUR RIFLE. YOU SHOULD REDUCE THESE LISTED MAXIMUM LOADs BY 10% TO USE AS YOUR "STARTING LOAD".

It looks to me like you should pick up a 1# can of Varget Rifle Powder, some Federal 210M primers and some150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullets. But if you don't wanna buy more components and want to "use up" your "in stock" components, then look up the .308 loads in your reloading manual and start at the "starting loads" of the rifle powders you've got. Normally, the "starting loads" are 10% below the "maximum loads" listed in your reloading manual.

I've had very excellent results (accuracy-wise & velocity-wise) in my .300 Savage cartridge using IMR4895, Winchester cases, Winchester standard large rifle primers and Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullets. However, I just purchase a can of Varget and have loaded up the first several "test loads" of many "test loads" I'm going to try with the Hodgdon Varget rifle powder and 4 different brands of primers... CCI, Winchester, Remington and Federal primers.

The .300 Savage has very slightly less powder capacity than your .308 Winchester and I've been told that the .308 Winchester was originally developed from the .300 Savage cartridge case.

You may find that standard large rifle primers give you better accuracy than the magnum primers. That's been my experience in medium capacity cases like the .300 Savage, the .308 and the .30/06. Try both kinds of primers while keeping all the other components the SAME and find out. Of course, in your rifle, you may get exactly the opposite results. One never knows...!

A couple of other things you might do that don't take all that long, but (I believe) truly enhance a load's accuracy is to "uniform" your cartridge's primer pockets and trim out the "spruce" from inside the cartridge case where the factory "punched out" the flash hole which is that small "hole" that runs from the primer pocket to the cartridge case's powder chamber. You'll need special "tools" to do these two things, but they are easily obtainable at the major reloading components sales locations.

I've seen it said that doing these things are NOT really all that helpful in obtaining the greatest accuracy, and perhaps the person saying it believed it was true. But I "know" that my 1953 Model 99 in .300 Savage caliber has fired 3-shot groups as small as .112 inches (a tad over 1/10th of an inch) off the bench-rest at 100 yards using a 3x-9x variable hunting scope set on "9x" and a not-so-great trigger of about 6 pounds. I believe my rifle could shoot even smaller groups if I used my 24x scope that's on my varmint rifle and had a 2 lb. trigger on the Model 99 Savage.

Maybe what some say about it being a waste of time to "uniform" the primer pockets and do all the other "accuracy tricks" I've mentioned is correct, but I don't believe it.

I'm definitely NOT bragging about MY ability as a rifleman... there are a lot of guys who shoot better than me. In truth, I'm talking about how to obtain the BEST accuracy from a rifle with a "good" barrel and the best, most accurate handloads a man can make using all his knowledge, patience and expertise as a handloader.

Also use cartridge cases from the SAME manufacturer's LOT that have been once-fired, then neck-sized (bolt-action rifles ONLY-full length resize for any other type of "action") and trimmed to minimum length, then chamfered on the inside and outside of the mouth of the case to "clean it up" after trimming.

You should also weigh the cases and bullets you intend to use in your "target" loads, use ONLY the same brand of cases from the same "lot" of cases that all weigh EXACTLY the same & bullets from the same "lot" of bullets that weigh EXACTLY the same. This,along with what I've recommned (above), will help give you maximum accuracy IF you do YOUR part.

Good Shooting!

Ron T.

I like the 165gr Hornady SP and 3031 in my .300Sav. The 165 is a nice compromise that's big enough for elk even. For KY whitetails, I can't believe the bullet would really matter, though. I'm a Hornady fan either way.

You're gonna love this rifle. I've never shot anything like 1/10th inch groups, but mine shoots 3/4" 100yd groups with the combination above (and very little load development). That's with a crappy trigger and a 4x post-reticle scope. The first two shots are always side by side and almost touch each other, with the third being about 3/4" below. Every time. If I solved that third shot problem it would shoot truly amazing groups. -al

EllieMae�.

You�re doing GREAT shooting in getting the �� groups you get using ONLY a 4x-post scope. I�m surprised you could shoot groups THAT small using only a 4x scope. I bet you could divide those groups in HALF if you would go to a 3x-9x variable scope and shoot your 100 yard targets using the 9x scope setting.

As concerns your 3rd errant shot that lands � of an inch lower than the first two� it may be something YOU are consistently doing on that third shot� like �creeping up� the rifle stock or holding the rifle in a different way on that third shot? A little different �pressure� on the rifle�s stock WILL slightly change the point-of-impact of the bullet. But, frankly, with a 4x scope� that small a change in the �sight picture� would be hard to detect.

Do you �time� your shots, I.E., do you allow the SAME time interval between shots so that the rifle�s barrel is about the same temperature when each shot is fired? If you are firing your shots one after another and the barrel is heating up, it could be that the barrel is heating up and touching the forearm as it heats up. THAT could be changing the point-of-impact of your 3rd. round, but NOT effecting the point-of-impact of the first two shots.

But� considering you�re using only a 4x post scope, you�re getting EXCELLENT results on the target. Most BOLT ACTION users would be jealous of your groups! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good Shooting!!!

Ron T.

I always figured that by the third shot, the barrel had heated up and something was touching something it shouldn't be. But I supposed it could be me, I never pay that much attention. I'm extremely pleased with 3/4" and just go hunting with it. I consider this a 200yd rifle and I can keep them around 2" at that range, which is plenty good enough for me. The balance of the rifle makes it easy to shoot well, too, even with the heavy creepy trigger. It's not light, and a little muzzle-heavy.

I'll never forget that day not too long after I bought it. I went out with a friend who was working on a new .35whelen. We put some paper targets against a hill at 150yds. These targets have a 6" circle with a 1" diameter black bull. He shot a bunch of different stuff he had loaded, and wasn't doing very well, getting frustrated. Before we left I got this M99 out just to show him my new baby. I took three shots across the hood of the pickup with my 165gr Hornady load. He was watching through his binocs and said he couldn't see any hits so I must be missing. I said BS and walked up there and grabbed the target and brought it back. It had three holes within the 1" black bull, two right beside each other at the top and a third at the bottom. Just like I knew it would. For the record, I didn't gloat, much.

Of course, it's not 1/10th of an inch. I'm surprised you can even measure a group of 30cal holes that small. Was it just one hole .40 inches across? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> -al

EllieMae...

Close... it was a one hole group that looked like a tight "cloverleaf" with the 3 bullet holes intermingled within the single .42 inch hole... and you're right, I really couldn't accurately measure the group using the "center-to-center" method. I had to measure the widest point in the group with my dial calipers which turned out to measure .42 inches. The math to determine the group size is: .420 - .308 = .112 inches.

It's often easier to measure a group with your dial calipers this way than to attempt to "guess" at where the "centers" of the bullet holes are.

But this M-99 rifle has fired several other very "tight" groups with not only IMR4895, but with IMR3031 and IMR4064 as well. I have already bought a pound of Hodgdon's Varget rifle powder and have loaded my first batch of 33 rounds consisting of 3 rounds each of a given powder amount with .2 of a grain step-up intervals between each powder amount. I intend to give the Varget a thorough "try" since the 2002 Lyman Reloading Handbook indicates that Varget was their "accuracy load" powder.

I doubt that the Varget will shoot a smaller group than the IMR4895 did. But what I'm looking for is that extra 80 fps in muzzle velocity ("MV"). The Lyman engineers claim they got a MV of 2740 fps... a considerable increase in MV over the chronographed 2664 fps average MV I'm getting with a maximum load (also a compressed load) of IMR4895.

Incidentally, the 3-shot group recorded by a maximum load of 41.5 grains of IMR 4895 in Winchester cases sparked by a Winchester standard large rifle primer pushing a Nosler Ballistic Tip Bullet @ 2664 fps measured .192 inches.

Best accuracy was a group (.112 inches) achieved by the above components, BUT using a 41.1 grain charge of IMR4895 that yielded an average MV of 2647 fps (at 85� on 6/24/02) with a deviation of just 13 fps (+6/-7 fps).

THIS LOAD COULD BE DANGEROUS IN YOUR RIFLE. FOLLOW NORMAL RELOADING PROCEDURES AND REDUCE YOUR STARTING LOADS BY 10% FROM THE MAXIMUM LOADS SHOWN ABOVE WHILE WATCHING FOR HIGH PRESSURE SIGNS.

If the Varget shoots as tight a group as the IMR4895 and gives me the same 2740 fps it gave the Lymen ballisticians, I'll use it for my hunting loads. If the IMR4895 is noticeably more accurate, then I'll stay with it rather than lose accuracy for just an 80 fps increase in MV.

I'm limiting myself to a 250 yard shot or less (probably a LOT "less") on a 10 point or larger whitetail buck, so the extra 3% greater muzzle velocity isn't all that important.

I had to "chuckle" when you said that you didn't "gloat... much".... hahahaha... yeah, rightttttttt... I BET you didn't "GLOAT".... "MUCH"!!! (Heheheheheh) But honestly, you deserved to do a bit of "gloating".

My Model 99E came out of a man's collection. When he passed away, his friend sold the man's gun collection for the widow. My rifle appeared to have been handled only very occasionally and was very close to being in "new" condition. All the metal was perfect and there were only a few very, very light marks in the wood. The barrel appeared to be like new... and the action was even "stiff" as though the rifle had only a few rounds fired through it.

The action smoothed up after I fired about 500 rounds from it last Spring and Summer... and is now "butter-smooth". This particular rifle shoots very well... averaging about .6 or .7 inch 3-shot groups @ 100 yards off the bench-rest using a rifle rest and sandbags. Naturally, under field conditions, it won't shoot any .112 inch groups. But I hope will still stay under a minute of angle (1 inch at 100 yards). Sounds like your rifle does that with ease. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To shoot that small a group as you've shot laying over the hood of a pickup is astounding considering you did it with a 4x-post scope... I SURE wouldn't want YOU shooting at me!!!

Good shooting!!!

Ron T.

You might not like that Lake City brass. It is very heavy, and requires lots of sizing and triming. My Remington VSFS likes it, but my Winchester M70 won't take them. They also require you reduce loads that work in Winchester brass by two grains.
Either the 150, or the 165 gr. bullets work fine. I wouldn't use most of the 180 gr. bullets on the market however. They are usually made with heavier jackets than the 150/165 gr. stuff.
Lots of good powders for the .308. CCI Magnum rifle primers work well with ball powders in that case. I've used AA 2520, AA2460 and WW 748 with good results.
For hunting ammo, I like Re-15, and either H or IMR 4895 or IMR 4064. E

I use 42 gr IMR 4064 in my 88 with match brass and CCI primers, 165 grSierra BT. The match brass is a little thinner than LC. So start with about 40. For my Remington 700 I use 43 gr of 4064, same bullets and priners, except Winchester brass. The 88 will shoot 3/4 inch groups with an old weaver V7 andthe remington will shoot 1/2 " groups with a fixed 4 X

Shaman,
In my 70's vintage 99 I load 150 grain Ballistic tips over 46 grains of Re15. I've tried 180 grains comparing Varget to Re 15. It seems Varget gives a little more velocity than Re15 for the same powder charge. They are supposed to be very close in burn rate. Never tried the experiment with the BT. This load shoots into around 1.25 inches although every once in awhile they drop below an inch. Don't think you will approach '06 velocity though. Mine run out at around 2700. I think an '06 can get up around 2900 with 150's but don't quote me! Anyway, good luck and give Varget and/or Re15 a try. I don't think you will be disappointed.

NoCAL

My favorite hunting load for a .308 uses the 150 gr hornady over a charge of IMR-3031 powder.

Thanks y'all for the good advice. Here's what I've decided to do:

I'm going to start out with what I've got-- H4895 and the Lake City Brass and the CCI Magnum Rifle primers. I'm going to load 20 rounds of 150 GR Hornady SP's and 20 rounds of 165 GR Hornady SP and see which the beast likes best. The next batch will be either 4064 or Varget, and I'll do the same. I was out at the store the other day and they didn't have 4064, and their Varget had a good coating of dust on it-- must have been there since Reagan's first term. That's okay, I can wait. Sooner or later one of the combinations will shoot better than I can. I'll load up a few hundred and it will last me until my family members pry it from my wobbly hands and cart me off to the home.

The one thing I'm going to question out of all this is why not military brass? Here's how I see it:

1) I like to load light to begin with; it's safer, cheaper, easier on the shoulder, and usually more accurate that way. BTW: that's a little light, not dangerous light. My finished loads are usually 5%-10% off max, but then my longest shot ever was 180 yards and that was this last Fall.
2) Everyone bitches about how not filling the case with powder can cause a lot of inaccuracies, because you never know how the powder's going to lay. With military brass, you've got a smaller capacity to begin with.
3) I'll be using RCBS X-dies, so the neck won't grow all that much after the first trim.
4) I got 500 rounds of cleaned LC '87 and '88 for under $20 off E-bay.

That's just IMHO, and I'd be happy to hear your responses.

As I have figured this out, when all's said and done, this is probably going to be a hot 300 Savage load done in a .308 case. As I thought about it, that was really what I was going after when I embarked on this gig: a dependable and accurate 150 yard gun that will eat cheap brass.

The other projects I have planned for this rifle are:

1) A 180 gr Elk load for when one of those bruisers finally makes it up onto my property-- we had one come by about 2 Mi away last fall with a tracking collar.
2) A .308 sabot round for general vermin. I love the 30-06 accelerator-- used it for years as my groundhog "vaporizer". I figure a heavier 75 GR .224 bullet might be awesome. If I can tune a load for this barrel, it'll be fun.



Anyhow, that's what's been rolling around in my head.

I'm with you on the light loads. I load my .300Sav to just 2500fps (165gr) and my .45-70 to 1500fps (400gr). The deer and elk in the freezer don't know the difference. -al

Be careful of head separations in any rifle that has rear locking lugs such as the 99's do. All reloaders should use a feeler wire to check every case. It's the hot loads that are by far the worst offenders and I am glad that your not a over max guy.

Those military cases might need more than just a touch up of the primer pockets if they have crimped in primers. The brass is usually stronger however but requires less powder to reach the maximum load due to the thicker brass.

I have never had a group yet in over half a century of handloading as small as .112" at 100 yds. I have set some records too in target shooting, won and run some bench rest matches and I have a number of Remington 40X's and many other rifles with premium barrels. My scopes are Unertl's, Lyman Target Spots and many of the Leupolds. I have got some two shot groups that were small and every once in a while I "loose" the second shot to a group and I go down and get the target and wonder if it's a flier?

Drat!

Another week goes by and the Savage 99 doesn't leave the case. My last post was what, 5/22? That's about when I loaded up the rounds and put the gun in the case to cart it to the farm.

Three weekends in a row I get done with chores and it rains. Three weeks, I get stuck at work late and can't make the range before sundown.

Oh well. Last year I was griping, because it was too darn hot and too darn dry.

Don Martin...

Your gentlemanly post caused me to recheck my records of the group I shot last summer with my Model 99 Savage (.300 Savage caliber). I had shot both some 100 yard and some 50 yard groups testing 4 different primers and various loads of 3 different rifle powders that day (June 24, 2002).

And you're CORRECT... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />my .112 inch, 3-shot group was most likely fired at a range of 50 yards, NOT 100 yards.

I didn't enter those records in my Reloading/Shooting Records Book until several weeks after I did the shooting... and I didn't mark the targets as to the range at which they were shot since I was chronographing for muzzle velocity on that day at the rifle range more than shooting for "group".

I am truly sorry if I seemed to mis-represent the range at which I fired that .112 inch, 3-shot group... that definitely was NOT my intention.

I was amazed when I measured the group size here at home a few weeks later since most of my 99's groups fall between .6 inches and about 1 inch... but I honestly did think I fired that group at 100 yards.

My records don't indicate the distance at which that .112 inch group was fired which is what created the mis-conception to start with since I shoot the vast majority of my groups at 100 yards.

But that .112 inch group MUST have been fired at 50 yards because I checked all the other targets of the groups I fired that day... and I don't have ANY 3-shot group under � minute of angle that were fired at 100 yards that day... June 24, 2002.

Of course, a .112 inch, 3-shot group isn't too shabby, even at 50 yards... and I absolutely KNOW that the range wasn't less than 50 yards. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for helping me correct my data...

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Well, the Savage 99 is home from the range. Here are the results:



Using Hornady Interloks with 40.5 grains of powder:



H4895: In both 150 and 165 Gr I could not get a pattern-- they were all over the place. In several instances the action was sticky on extraction.



BL-C(2): 150 gr 3/4" 4-round cloverleaf group at 100 yards with a flyer ( I wasn't concentrating). The 165 grainers were strung out vertically; 3 shot groups averaged 1.5 inches.



I think I've found a rifle that has a favorite powder. Funny thing: Angie was outside painting and said the second bunch (BL-C(2)) were loud-- louder than anything she's ever heard me shoot.



The next step is to try some 4064 and some Varget and some 3031 , RE 15 and. . . It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.



Thanks for all the help. You guys who keep talking up the Savage 99 are right. I'm in love.



Besides getting the '99 out for the first time, today saw another first: #3 son accompanied me out to the range after services. Brendan is 5 and asked to come along for the first time. He sat for about half the shooting in his glassees and muffs and then decided it was too loud and walked back home. He told Mom he had fun.

Shaman...



Do you have the latest loading data for Hodgdon's Varget, Bl-C(2) and H4895 for your .308 Winchester?



The reason I ask is that at 40.5 grains, you are SLIGHTLY below the "starting load" charge of H4895. Using BL-C(2), your 40.5 grain load is FAR BELOW the "starting charge" of 43.3 grains. This might account for the rather "loud" report your rifle gave using only 40.5 grains of BL-C(2).



It is possible, but probably NOT likely, that you got what we use to call (but it wasn't) "detonation" by using too little of a slower powder. I had this happen to me using about 7% less than "starting load" of the very slow-burning IMR4831 my .338 Winchester magnum using a 200 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet. I was trying to develop an accurate, reduced (2500 fps) load for my .338 using a 200 grain bullet. I got a loud, very "hollow" sounding report when I fired that load... and my bolt handle (a pre-'64, Model 70 Winchester) was VERY hard to open... indicating EXTREMELY high pressure. Yet the load was almost 20% below "maximun load".



According to Hodgdon's "Basic Reloader's Manual-2003" (a "complimentary" issue at most reloading component dealer's showrooms), the MAXIMUM charge for H4895 using a 150 grain bullet in a .308 Winchester cartridge is 45.5 grains yielding 2870 fps out of a 24" barrel using Winchester cases and Federal 210M primers. This would make a "starting charge" = 40.95 or 41.0 grains of H4895. Pressure @ max. load = 51,000 C.U.P.



The Hodgdon Basic Reloader's Manual-2003 indicates a MAXIMUM charge of BL-C(2) with 150 grain bullet is 48.0 grains yielding a MV of 2839 fps with a pressure of 50,000 C.U.P. using the same components as above. Reducing this maximum load by 10%, your "STARTING LOAD" of BL-C(2) would be 43.2 grains.



Hodgdon's Varget rifle Powder was supposedly developed specifically FOR the .308 Winchester... and supposedly gives the highest velocity with possibly the greatest accuracy. The MAXIMUM load of Varget for your .308 Winchester is 47.0 grains (compressed load) yielding a MV "muzzle velocity") of 2937 fps with 50,300 C.U.P.



Since the .308 Winchester (7.62 NATO) was developed from the .300 Savage cartridge, and Lyman's latest (2002) Reloading Handbook lists a maximum load (42.0 grains) of Varget as the "most accurate load" for the .300 Savage, I thought that Varget might end up being the "best" powder for my .300 Savage as well.



That load was SUPPOSED to have yielded a MV of 2740 fps. I bought a pound of Varget and worked up some loads using the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet in Winchester cases using Winchester standard large rifle primers.



UNFORTUNATELY, the MV never got even CLOSE to 2740 fps using a maximum load (42.0 grains) of Varget for the .300 Savage. My chronograph indicated a average MV (3 shots) of just 2615 fps with NO HIGH PRESURE SIGNS. Accuracy was just "average" (.64" at 50 yards).



I took along 3 "control" loads of my regular hunting load... 41.5 grains (a "maximum" listed load) of IMR4895 to insure I was getting "honest" velocity readings out of my chronograph... and the three IMR4895 hunting loads averaged a MV of 2686 fps which is about "normal" muzzle velocity for this load. Therefore, I probably got an accurate MV reading on the Varget loads. Accuracy with my hunting load was less than a half inch (3-shots) at 50 yards which is normal for this load in my Model 99.



I hope you have a chronograph... it SURE helps when developing loads. You can buy a decent chronograph which will do most everything you want for less than $100. Since I've got mine several years ago, I can't imagine how I could develop loads without one!



Give the Varget a "try"... it might work out to be the best powder for your .308 Winchester.



Strength & Honor...



Ron T.

I wasn't working off the latest data, although I did see it. I had an earlier set of numbers on H4895 that put the minimums in the 38-39 grain range. I boosted it a grain and a half for good measure, and also brought it into the range of the earlier BL-C(2) numbers. I didn't worry about the new numbers too much; I was dealing with lower-capacity military cases, which I assumed would offset the other issues.

That's how I thought this out. That isn't an argument for it, just an honest documentation of what was going through my mind. I guess I'm lucky the top of the receiver didn't go through it either.

The loud noise issue was finally settled last night. Angie and I were talking; it seems that in 6 years of marital bliss, this had been the first time she'd heard me shooting a high-power rifle. Usually I take my ought-sixes, etc. out to the range at home and she can't stand the noise under the club's tin roof, so she stays home.

I doublechecked the brass before and after they went into the tumbler-- no signs of excessive pressure. I also didn't feel any excessive recoil-- 50 rounds through that Savage was quite pleasant. Funny how life can be so placid that close to oblivion.

One thing is for sure: I'm going to pay much more attention to the latest minimum loads from now on. This probably also means I should redo the H4895 loads at something higher than 40.5 and try again. I was confident going into this that the H4895 would do better.

You are making a case for a chronograph most appealing.

There you go, Shaman...



Once I got my chronograph, I found that working up loads with a chronograph is soooo much better & easier done than working them up withOUT a chronograph.



Without one, you can't determine what gain in velocity is realized by each incremental increase in the amount of powder used in the round. When I get within a couple of grains of the published maximum powder load, I change my "incremental increase" in the powder load from .5 grains down to just .2 grains of powder... or if the powder charge is less than 30 grains, I often lower the powder charge change to just .1 grain of incremental increase in the powder load and "creep up" on the single best load for that particular rifle and caliber.



It is amazing to watch what happens to the size of the groups as the muzzle velocity changes... and, of course, if you aren't using a chronograph, you can't truly note HOW MUCH of a velocity change there is and/or what happens to the group size as the velocity changes.



The majority of the time, you can readily SEE the size of the group get smaller and smaller as you approach what I call "the sweet spot" in the velocity range of the loads you're testing. This "sweet spot" may or may NOT be at or near the maximum powder load (aka "maximum velocity for that type of powder").



Generally, I've found the "sweet spot" for a given powder tends to extend over about a .4 to .6 grain range within which the groups stay about the same size or increase/decrease very slightly in size. More or less rifle powder on either end of that "sweet spot range" results in the groups enlarging. This is where a chronograph really helps in load development because it allows you to see when you pass the most accurate velocity range ("the sweet spot")... and it allows you to accept or reject a given accurate load because the MV is not as high as you wish.



You also notice that when you change the brand of primer, the velocity often changes as well... as does the "sweet spot" in the rifle's velocity range.



Frankly, I can't see how anyone could determine their "best hunting load" if they don't use a chronograph which enables them really "know" what kind of velocity their various loads are giving them... and further allows them to compare MV with group size which enables them to determine the best accuracy with the highest velocity FOR that accuracy.



One added interest... if you chronograph any "factory loads", you may find they have a CONSIDERABLY lower muzzle velocity than "advertised".



Think HARD about getting that chronograph, my friend... you'll love it!!!





Strength & Honor...



Ron T.