Fundamentalism & Evangelicalism both have definitions that are understood to refer to specific parts of Protestantism. By those definitions every Christian is NOT both; I would say it’s safe to say that the vast majority of the saints on high were not either of them.
Now do all Christians believe in salvation by grace?
What about by grace ALONE? I heard about a world-shaking event that centered around that debate that likely had a great many Christians on both sides.
What if one is a 5-Point Calvinist but can't decide whether to subscribe to Infralapsarianism vs. Supralapsarianism??
Quien Sabe,
GWB
Good question. At least there is an inner conflict in that case. When a fundamentalist discovers inner conflict he is on the verge of no longer being a fundamentalist.
BTW,
If I was born in 1951, would it be that I was fore-ordained to be a Pre-Millennial?
Antinomies Abound!
ya!
GWB
Yes and maybe.
If a five point Calvinist it may be necessary to determine if one has leanings toward Antinomianistic legalism or legalistic Antinomianism. I’m not a three, four or five point Calvinist but I seem to equally fall off both sides of the horse.
Thus gospel-grace and law-commands, Both bind and loose each other’s hands: They can’t agree on any terms, Yet hug each other in their arms.
Those that divide them cannot be The friends of truth and verity; Yet those that dare confound the two, Destroy them both, and gender woe.
This paradox none can decipher, That plow not with the gospel-heifer. . . .
To run to work, the law commands; The gospel gives me feet and hands: The one requires that I obey; The other does the pow’r convey.
Interesting Article GW. I've read a bit of Ferguson over the years. I've been down the road a way with the Puritan writers and some of the Old Scottish Presbyterians. I think that they missed the boat by overemphasizing the last paragraph that you posted.
A couple summers ago a Presbyterian fella was telling me about how he had improved over the years (synergistic sanctification). I asked him specifically how he had improved. He gave me quotes from the Westminster. I kept asking how he had specifically improved. When pushed he told me that he was more patient than he used to be. Not a good example of power conveyed for a guy in the faith as long as he had been a Christian.
I think it was Luther that said that God doesn't need your works but your neighbor does. Rather than the law being a demand, in Christ it becomes an example of how we serve the neighbor. I still seem to go back and forth between the two. It's hard to keep the middle ground.
Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
None of us are good really, but Christ said he had a plan for everyone, I believe him.
Why so many versions of God? It seems that every believer has their own ideas about God.
There appears to be as many versions of God as there are believers who believe in the existence of a God.
Broadly grouped according to religion, Islam/Allah, Hinduism/Brahman, Judaism/Yahweh, etc, with individuals having their own ideas.....if there is a God, why all this confusion?
Every one of those tries to work their way into heaven. There is no ultimate redeeming sacrifice. Christianity stands alone.
Ehesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
That's kinda what I was aiming for in one of the points in the OP. Fundamentalism really isn't a good thing. Look at Afghanistan right now.
I'm not really sure how to respond to the idea of a belief system. I've kinda come to the conclusion that all religions in the world are about belief systems. Christianity stands out as being different. Christ kept it pretty simple when he said that all who believe have eternal life. Maybe all men are fundamentalists at heart because it's hard to find anybody who will let Christ's words stand as they are. Men want to add a bunch of do's and don't's to the proposition and make it a system of belief rather than something that is given to them
Interesting Article GW. I've read a bit of Ferguson over the years. I've been down the road a way with the Puritan writers and some of the Old Scottish Presbyterians. I think that they missed the boat by overemphasizing the last paragraph that you posted.
A couple summers ago a Presbyterian fella was telling me about how he had improved over the years (synergistic sanctification). I asked him specifically how he had improved. He gave me quotes from the Westminster. I kept asking how he had specifically improved. When pushed he told me that he was more patient than he used to be. Not a good example of power conveyed for a guy in the faith as long as he had been a Christian.
I think it was Luther that said that God doesn't need your works but your neighbor does. Rather than the law being a demand, in Christ it becomes an example of how we serve the neighbor. I still seem to go back and forth between the two. It's hard to keep the middle ground.
Beware of dialectical synergism!
“The Scriptures are shallow enough for a babe to come and drink without fear of drowning and deep enough for a theologians to swim in without ever touching the bottom"......... St. Jerome
9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. Romans 10:9-10, Amplified Bible
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound more and more [displaying itself in greater depth] in real knowledge and in practical insight, 10 so that you may learn to recognize and treasure what is excellent [identifying the best, and distinguishing moral differences], and that you may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ [actually living lives that lead others away from sin]; 11 filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God [so that His glory may be both revealed and recognized]. Phillipians 1:9-11, Amplified Bible.
Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
That's kinda what I was aiming for in one of the points in the OP. Fundamentalism really isn't a good thing. Look at Afghanistan right now.
Comparing western legalistic Christians to those Musloid head choppers is quite foolish and now I have a hard time taking you seriously even though I agree with much of what you said.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
I’m a Christian. Faith is important in my life. That being the case, were I faced with two choices, go to a fundamentalist church or go to a whore house I’d chose the whore house every time. It would be a much more honest transaction every single time and metaphorically appropriate.
Yup. Not finding anything to "fundamentally" disagree with. And yes, I am a Christian...bought and paid for by the blood of Yeshua the Christ. It is a shame what some folks do to Grace.
Tim
Like going to a whore house ?🤦🏻♂️
You have to contextualize what I said. Think about the prophet Amos.
I know the story But going to a whore house, and having your wife become a prostitute, seems to be two different things I’m truly not trying to be augmentative Be well
Last edited by keith_dunlap; 08/30/21.
if a man speaks, and there isn't a woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?
I'm going to ask that Jesus' teachings and Paul's writings be closely and critically examined to see if they can be reconciled. I just do not believe Jesus will fault you for examining Paul. I understand if you have been SBC, Assembly of God, Pentecostal or whatever it can be painful to give up a cherished belief you have held for forty years. I was baptized a Southern Baptist over 40 years ago and still attend a SBC. There is no way this side of hell that Jesus' teachings and Paul's doctrine agree. Jesus message was not new and not a new road to salvation. He clearly said that. True repentance followed by works evident of repentance are the way clearly taught by Jesus and John the Baptist. Jesus by the way vouched for John. Now look into it and see if you can verify your thoughts on salvation if you leave Paul completely out of it. I notice that he is quoted most often and Jesus' clear statement that the law and the prophets would not pass away as long as heaven and earth endures are ignored. Go ahead and try to ratify your beliefs on salvation without quoting Paul.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
That's kinda what I was aiming for in one of the points in the OP. Fundamentalism really isn't a good thing. Look at Afghanistan right now.
I'm not really sure how to respond to the idea of a belief system. I've kinda come to the conclusion that all religions in the world are about belief systems. Christianity stands out as being different. Christ kept it pretty simple when he said that all who believe have eternal life. Maybe all men are fundamentalists at heart because it's hard to find anybody who will let Christ's words stand as they are. Men want to add a bunch of do's and don't's to the proposition and make it a system of belief rather than something that is given to them
In a quick perusal of your posts, it seemed to me from the get-go you were trying, as the MSM does, to use the term "fundamentalism" to lump conservative Christians in with fundamentalist sects of Muslims and other groups that generally are terroristic. Fundamentalist Christians vary wildly from group to group but are, in general, simply conservative believers in Christ and the Bible. Christianity is greatly different from any other religion. As Rockchuck is trying to point out, at its core is the belief that there is nothing an individual can do to save himself. Salvation only comes through belief/faith in Jesus Christ and that faith is a gift from God. It comes from without, not from within. That is the huge difference between Christianity of any stripe and all other religions. Buzz words/terms like "fundamentalist" and "evangelical" usually come from sources that wish to put Christians in categories with other religions and liken them to them. They cannot be as Christianity is truly different.
A kind God is what we have. One Who holds everything together by strict adherence to the law and Who found a way to salvage His imperfect creation even while adhering to the last letter of that law. Praise God (Jesus) for ever and ever. Amen.
I'm going to ask that Jesus' teachings and Paul's writings be closely and critically examined to see if they can be reconciled. I just do not believe Jesus will fault you for examining Paul. I understand if you have been SBC, Assembly of God, Pentecostal or whatever it can be painful to give up a cherished belief you have held for forty years. I was baptized a Southern Baptist over 40 years ago and still attend a SBC. There is no way this side of hell that Jesus' teachings and Paul's doctrine agree. Jesus message was not new and not a new road to salvation. He clearly said that. True repentance followed by works evident of repentance are the way clearly taught by Jesus and John the Baptist. Jesus by the way vouched for John. Now look into it and see if you can verify your thoughts on salvation if you leave Paul completely out of it. I notice that he is quoted most often and Jesus' clear statement that the law and the prophets would not pass away as long as heaven and earth endures are ignored. Go ahead and try to ratify your beliefs on salvation without quoting Paul.
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
That would be a good start. See if you can come up with Paul's plan by reading Jesus' teachings or for that matter anywhere else in the old or new testament. There is no coming to consciousness without pain as someone once wisely noted. Should we throw away Jesus and John or Paul if there is a dichotomy in their teachings?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
That would be a good start. See if you can come up with Paul's plan by reading Jesus' teachings or for that matter anywhere else in the old or new testament. There is no coming to consciousness without pain as someone once wisely noted. Should we throw away Jesus and John or Paul if there is a dichotomy in their teachings?
I meant to also say ''there we go again quoting Paul to prove a point''.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
That would be a good start. See if you can come up with Paul's plan by reading Jesus' teachings or for that matter anywhere else in the old or new testament. There is no coming to consciousness without pain as someone once wisely noted. Should we throw away Jesus and John or Paul if there is a dichotomy in their teachings?
Do we throw Peter's writings out as well who called Paul "beloved" and his letters "scripture". 1 Peter 3: 15-16...."Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction".
So which one are you......ignorant or unstable? Those are not my words but Peter's.
Last edited by RJY66; 08/30/21.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
That would be a good start. See if you can come up with Paul's plan by reading Jesus' teachings or for that matter anywhere else in the old or new testament. There is no coming to consciousness without pain as someone once wisely noted. Should we throw away Jesus and John or Paul if there is a dichotomy in their teachings?
In reading post you make on other subjects I have learned what to expect from you and not very much is of value to me. The Bible is a complete book. It was made flesh and dwelt among us even. To say some of it is wrong would absolutely be wrong to me so I'll leave you with this.
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
So throw everything Paul wrote out of the Bible? What do we do with this? 2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: I've never gotten the idea that Paul was against good works. Works are the fruit of salvation.
That would be a good start. See if you can come up with Paul's plan by reading Jesus' teachings or for that matter anywhere else in the old or new testament. There is no coming to consciousness without pain as someone once wisely noted. Should we throw away Jesus and John or Paul if there is a dichotomy in their teachings?
Do we throw Peter's writings out as well who called Paul "beloved" and his letters "scripture". 1 Peter 3: 15-16...."Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction".
So which one are you......ignorant or unstable? Those are not my words but Peter's.
See if you can come up with Paul's doctrine of salvation by reading Jesus' teachings. I can't. I am asking you to throw aside Baptist etc. doctrine for a short while and critically compare the teachings of the entire bible and see if you can buttress Paul's claims about the new deal. It isn't there. I understand that casting aside something dearly held is painful. Very painful. Jesus warned about him.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
I don't dispute the book (Revelation) that your quote references
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
