It is like this if I were on a ship. The captain gives orders and instructions that are to be acknowledged and obeyed. Now a stowaway comes around saying the captain's orders are not valid. Says he has talked to the captain and things are changed.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Has any part of The Law and Prophets been done away with, dispensed with, no longer in force, etc.???
Legit question….
OT “law” can be categorized in three ways….
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Spiritual Law
In my current view, Jesus’ sacrificial death… being made sin for us…. Paying our sin penalty…. Has made both Civil Law and Ceremonial Law to be set aside in favor of the New Covenant.
God’s Spiritual Law of the Old Testament…. In my view…. Remains intact and unchanged.
Many do not distinguish between these three “laws.” In fact, one could argue that both “Ceremonial and Civil ‘Law’ “ were peculiar to the tribes of Israel and were “extinguished” at the death on the cross and destruction of the temple…. 70 AD or so…..
If one does not distinguish the “laws” as shown …or does not understand the New Covenant, misunderstanding will be the result.
If that be true, and I believe that it is then................ 'Heaven and Earth have passed away' '...if even one jot or tittle................'
Still trying to get out of the house..but…correct me if I am wrong, but the jot and tittle comment was made by Jesus and was BEFORE the death on the cross….. so, no issue here at all.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Has any part of The Law and Prophets been done away with, dispensed with, no longer in force, etc.???
When you say “The Law and Prophets” above, are you referring to the books that we call the Old Testament, or are you referring to the Mosaic Law that we call the Old Covenant...?
Whatever JESUS was referring to in Matt 5:18............. has any of THAT law passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc. I think it's the Old Law, old Covenant, the mosaic Law............
Nope, not passed away at that moment…. Jesus still alive…..
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Has any part of The Law and Prophets been done away with, dispensed with, no longer in force, etc.???
When you say “The Law and Prophets” above, are you referring to the books that we call the Old Testament, or are you referring to the Mosaic Law that we call the Old Covenant...?
Whatever JESUS was referring to in Matt 5:18............. has any of THAT law passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc. I think it's the Old Law, old Covenant, the mosaic Law............
Nope, not passed away at that moment…. Jesus still alive…..
My point is that if ANY of the OT, Old Law, HAS indeed passed away, is gone, non longer in force, THEN 'heaven and earth have passed away'........... THAT's what HE said!
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Heaven and earth haven't passed away yet. I can understand Paul's problem with his doctrine. He never talked to Jesus and he didn't have the gospels to know that Jesus' teachings contradicted him. It is notable that the Roman government thought he was important enough to spirit him away on a ship when things got hot on him for lying.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Has any part of The Law and Prophets been done away with, dispensed with, no longer in force, etc.???
When you say “The Law and Prophets” above, are you referring to the books that we call the Old Testament, or are you referring to the Mosaic Law that we call the Old Covenant...?
Whatever JESUS was referring to in Matt 5:18............. has any of THAT law passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc. I think it's the Old Law, old Covenant, the mosaic Law............
Nope, not passed away at that moment…. Jesus still alive…..
My point is that if ANY of the OT, Old Law, HAS indeed passed away, is gone, non longer in force, THEN 'heaven and earth have passed away'........... THAT's what HE said!
What do you think Jesus is referring to when he speaks of “all being fulfilled?”
Did that happen?
Edit: if “all has been fulfilled”, then there is no issue.
Second edit: “Heaven and earth” will/would not pass away…. And only if they did…. Which they won’t…. Only would the law go away…… UNLESS…. “All was fulfilled” …. Which it was when Jesus “fulfilled” the law by dying on the cross.
All ok here…. You may want to read up on “Jesus fulfilled the law”
Last edited by TF49; 08/31/21.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
It's a thorny problem. The words "heaven and earth pass away" are there and are unambiguous. Cannot get past that. Obviously Paul didn't realize Jesus said that. Before it was over the Roman government had to put Paul in their version of a witness protection program.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
It's a thorny problem. The words "heaven and earth pass away" are there and are unambiguous. Cannot get past that. Obviously Paul didn't realize Jesus said that. Before it was over the Roman government had to put Paul in their version of a witness protection program.
Read some commentaries…
My read on it is that not one jot or tittle will pass will pass away….until “Heaven and earth pass away”……OR…. All is fulfilled.
Jesus is saying that the law stands…. Nothing will change God’s Law…. until one of two things happen…. Heavens pass away…. Which implies God were cease…. OR… all is fulfilled….,the law fulfilled by Jesus death on the cross.
This endorses the “permanence” of God and His law…. It also points,out that there is only ONE act/occuren e that can change the condemnation of sin in God’s law…. The sacrificial death of,the Son.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Whatever JESUS was referring to in Matt 5:18............. has any of THAT law passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc. I think it's the Old Law, old Covenant, the mosaic Law............
To me, yes; THAT law has passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc.. The verse you referred to, where He said “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” The highlighted part of that verse is pretty significant. And He clearly said that He came to fulfill all that was written in the Law and the Prophets. All of it pointed to Him, and He accomplished what the Law required. He did fulfill it, just like He said He came to do. The sacrifices stopped because Jesus fulfilled all that they pointed to...He was the ‘final’ sacrifice for sins. The priesthood stopped...the one that stood between God and those who worshipped Him. The physical temple stopped...it was no longer the geographical center of worship because God now lived within His followers...‘they’ themselves were the temple. “Jesus is the end of the Law.”
The Law had a built-in expiration date. When Jesus said that He came to fulfill it, He meant that He came to bring it to a designated end. He didn’t come to abolish...as in ‘destroy’...the validity of it, or undermine the credibility of it. He came to bring it to a designated end. If the Law were a plane, He was landing it; if the Law were a speech, He was concluding it; if the Law were a homework assignment, He was completing it.
Jesus said nothing in the law would “disappear” until everything in it was “fulfilled.” Once it was “fulfilled” however, the law would begin to disappear. Which is exactly what happened.
To me, when He said “It is finished” from the cross, He was announcing that the Old Covenant that He came to fulfill was at last fulfilled. And through His sacrifice, a New Covenant, a better and broader covenant was bring established between God and ALL who would choose to participate.
Don’t. You have some excellent posts on this thread which are very insightful, and I have gleaned a lotta good stuff from them. The same can be said for you Rock Chuck. Thanks, to both of ya’.
Something that has served me well is to realize I could be wrong. So I will again give my distrust of Paul a critical look by analyzing what I see to be his contradictions of Jesus. The bible is pretty short version of a huge amount of subject matter and I do believe keeping an eye out for things the self serving Roman church added in or removed is a good idea. As I earlier stated the old testament would have been much harder to tamper with due to being in circulation for so many centuries. There were gospels that for some reason or another were not canonized by Constantine's council while for instance the book of Hebrews whose author is unknown was included. And I'm not buying it that God stepped in a saw to it that the bible was complete and accurate. God's self proclaimed agency here on earth has done so much dirt that their word doesn't amount to a hill of beans. In addition to knowing I could be wrong being a bit suspicious has also served me well.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Has any part of The Law and Prophets been done away with, dispensed with, no longer in force, etc.???
When you say “The Law and Prophets” above, are you referring to the books that we call the Old Testament, or are you referring to the Mosaic Law that we call the Old Covenant...?
Whatever JESUS was referring to in Matt 5:18............. has any of THAT law passed away/stopped/dispensed with/no longer in force, etc. I think it's the Old Law, old Covenant, the mosaic Law............
It all passed away for those who chose to Believe Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the grave.
What was left or started anew, was the Golden Rule, the Holy Spirit, and the Resurrection of the Lord. We we will also Rise as He did, because He did.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
DEUT 32:1 Moses said 'Give ear oh ye heavens, and hear oh ye earth' - he was speaking to the nation if Israel.
ISA 1:2 Isaiah said 'hear oh heavens, and give ear oh earth' he was writing to the nation of Israel.
ISA 51:16 GOD says ' I have put my word in your mouth (speaking to the nation of Israel) to plant the heavens and found the earth, and to say thou art ZION'
These passages are not talking about Planets and Stars, Israel was addressed as, and called heaven and earth, GOD had not put HIS words in anyone when he made the Sun, Moon and Stars.............
And it's possible that when JESUS said 'Heaven and Earth', HE was also talking about the nation of Israel, which passed away, ceased to be, ended in the first century. Coincident with the passing of the Old Law...
Last edited by Muffin; 08/31/21.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
After Jesus was crucified, religious Israel wrestled for the next 40 years with the internal tension created by Jesus’ New Covenant. They tried hard to stamp it out, but it kept growing. Due to the tireless efforts of Apostle Paul and others, Jews throughout the Roman Empire began abandoning their strict adherence to the Law and started following the resurrected Jesus.
Then the transition came to a quick end, on August 6th in AD 70. The four-year war between Rome and the Jewish rebels came to a violent conclusion. The Jewish temple was looted and burned and razed to the ground. Its destruction signaled the end of ancient Judaism. The words of the Old Covenant were preserved, but Israel’s ability to live in accordance with those words disappeared in a day.
Ancient Judaism...as prescribed by Moses at Mount Sinai...ceased to exist. To use Jesus’ term, it “disappeared.”
After Jesus was crucified, religious Israel wrestled for the next 40 years with the internal tension created by Jesus’ New Covenant. They tried hard to stamp it out, but it kept growing. Due to the tireless efforts of Apostle Paul and others, Jews throughout the Roman Empire began abandoning their strict adherence to the Law and started following the resurrected Jesus.
Then the transition came to a quick end, on August 6th in AD 70. The four-year war between Rome and the Jewish rebels came to a violent conclusion. The Jewish temple was looted and burned and razed to the ground. Its destruction signaled the end of ancient Judaism. The words of the Old Covenant were preserved, but Israel’s ability to live in accordance with those words disappeared in a day.
Ancient Judaism...as prescribed by Moses at Mount Sinai...ceased to exist. To use Jesus’ term, it “disappeared.”
Yes! the words of the writer of Hebrews, '...whatever is growing old, is ready to disappear...' he was speaking of the 'Old Way'.
Last edited by Muffin; 08/31/21.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Anybody studied much of what the Eastern Orthodox have to say? I just found a YouTube channel that has proven rather interesting. This video (nothing to do with what we’re discussing here) I found pretty awesome:
Some of you are probably thinking what that video clip I posted in the middle of this discussion had any bearing on the thread itself.
Nothing, just my way of saying, let us not miss the pure joy of the gospel in all the superfluous stuff.
The Bible is meditation literature. It is meant for a lifetime of reading and ruminating over. (There are people with doctorates that spend a lifetime on one section of the Bible) You can never be done with it. It is an onion with never ending layers. And we are all understanding at different layers on the onion. So of course there will be differences of opinions. We must humble ourselves . Something you are steadfast positive of today, you may realize you didn’t understand at all years from now
Decades of voting for the lesser of two evils has gotten us just that.....
ALL truth, was NOT revealed/given/spoken/taught by JESUS, HE said so HIMself................. JOHN 16:12-15
That is such a ‘great’ point. Thanks so much for pointing it out.
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” - Jesus
