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When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth?

Last edited by dimecovers5; 08/31/21.
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Barnes bullets were cool 10 years ago. Now the cool kids are back to fragmenting bullets again.


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In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,

Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.

But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.

The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.


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Bullet placement is still #1

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Big chunks of lead at moderate velocity work rather well.


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Dead dogma is best served fried.


I am..........disturbed.

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Hydrostatic shock is an oxymoron. Hydro means water, (or other liquids) and static means at rest. The phrase literally means the shock of water at rest.

If you want to talk about hydrodynamic shock, at least the terminology makes sense.

Animals mainly die from a central nervous system hit, or from a big enough hole in the right place to let the blood out or scramble gas exchange in the lungs.

I'm sure the shockwave that propagates through animal flesh doesn't do them any good, but I'm very skeptical about it killing anything.

Last edited by denton; 08/31/21.

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Originally Posted by dimecovers5
When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth?
I grew up with the exact same theory....until one day I hit a small buck with a ballistic tip from my .270 and the deer ran off. I finally found it in some bushes and it was hit fairly well. The range was about 25 yards and the deer should have dropped instantly.....

I decided that from that day forward, I wanted an exit hole to create a better blood trail to follow. I didn't dismiss the hydrostatic shock theory but was willing to sacrifice some of the bullet's energy to create an exit hole. That was 40 years back and since then have never regretted that decision. The hydrostatic shock theory has come up several times since then and always been dismissed as of little importance or non existent (even with good bullet placement.
Today I look for
1. Sufficient accuracy to yield good placement
2. A tough enough bullet to exit
3. cartridge with enough energy capability to force the exit....(most modern rifles are capable of that)
4. sufficient bench time to keep my shooting skills in reasonable shape

Bear in mind.....there is no bullet that will always exit.....even the Barnes that I like to shoot will not always exit.....nor will the Nosler Partition.....but your chances are better. It's been said thousands of times.....Placement is the key!
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I like to drain my animals. They have to stop when
they run out of blood. No blood, the brain no workee.
The brain no workee, the legs no workee

I go for the pump house

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,

Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.

But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.

The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.



I'm sure most of us have had a common situation where they double lunged a deer and the deer went 75 yards and dropped. but we've also made the same shot and the deer fell in it's tracks instantly. If you don't hit the spine or the brain what causes this lights out effect sometimes?

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Imagine the complexity of the CNS, respiratory and circulatory systems and explain how two animals shot with similar placement and aspect will have the same reaction.

I shot a deer years ago with a .30-30 and among other things cut the heart completely in half. Spewed blood like a fire hydrant and it was easy to track...for over 200 yards. Uphill.

Different year, same result, boom-flop....with a .44 Mag. No hydro-whatzit involved.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Someone here stated it very well a couple of years ago: kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff, holes in vital organs kill stuff


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In my youth, I read Wby's theories and somewhat subscribed but never had the funds to buy his rifles nor ammo.

I pushed his theory to the side as I gained hunting experience but have always wondered about a few kills I've witnessed
where an animal was hit high in the neck with smaller high velocity bullets that dropped the critter instantly. Could the
hydroshock that close to the brain have caused the critter to blackout and drop?

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To take it a step further it is cessation of organ function and oxygen flowing to the brain which results in dead animals. Just like dead humans. Damage the system, shut it down, and creatures die.


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Originally Posted by dimecovers5
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,

Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.

But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.

The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.



I'm sure most of us have had a common situation where they double lunged a deer and the deer went 75 yards and dropped. but we've also made the same shot and the deer fell in it's tracks instantly. If you don't hit the spine or the brain what causes this lights out effect sometimes?


I suspect that some of the so-called “evidence” of HSS, such as ruptured arteries far from the POI are actually caused by bullet or bone fragments that aren’t found in the “post-mortem”.

I also think that there are factors involved, invisible to the hunter, that affect how an animal reacts to being shot; such as its emotional state, how full its stomach is, if the heart is between beats or compressing, if it’s inhaling or exhaling, and its stance- how its weight is distributed on its feet when the bullet hits. No way to know most or even any of that, so make a good shot with a good bullet and hope for the best.

What I want to know is how to get a deer to run towards my car when shot, instead of invariably the other way.


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Park your vehicle over there first. Easy.


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Originally Posted by bluefish
Park your vehicle over there first. Easy.


Silly me! Why didn’t I think of that?

Thanks.


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I just Googled "Hydrostatic shock" and there was some very interesting studies , the first by e. Harvey Newton at Princeton University.
There was also reference done during WW2 on it by a Dr. Chamberlain who commanded a very large military hospital , interviewing patients of gunshot wounds.He steered away from the " shock" aspect because it aluded to some sort of pressure wave, but did acknowledge that the nervous system could be disrupted and that it was a real thing.
There are a few others who disputed his findings as well.
Quite interesting .
Personally speaking, I strive for big holes properly placed in the lungs. :>)
Cat

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It's pretty simple.....you need to break bone and get to the main vitals. I have shot heavy for calibre lead and copper all with the same positive effect. I am a a Whitetail and Black Bear hunter and break the shoulder(s) on both.


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Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by dimecovers5
When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth?
I grew up with the exact same theory....until one day I hit a small buck with a ballistic tip from my .270 and the deer ran off. I finally found it in some bushes and it was hit fairly well. The range was about 25 yards and the deer should have dropped instantly.....

I decided that from that day forward, I wanted an exit hole to create a better blood trail to follow. I didn't dismiss the hydrostatic shock theory but was willing to sacrifice some of the bullet's energy to create an exit hole. That was 40 years back and since then have never regretted that decision. The hydrostatic shock theory has come up several times since then and always been dismissed as of little importance or non existent (even with good bullet placement.
Today I look for
1. Sufficient accuracy to yield good placement
2. A tough enough bullet to exit
3. cartridge with enough energy capability to force the exit....(most modern rifles are capable of that)
4. sufficient bench time to keep my shooting skills in reasonable shape

Bear in mind.....there is no bullet that will always exit.....even the Barnes that I like to shoot will not always exit.....nor will the Nosler Partition.....but your chances are better. It's been said thousands of times.....Placement is the key!
.

Well said, that is my theory as well. I am willing to "waste some energy" in order to get an exit, thereby making tracking much easier. Where I hunt, a blood trail is pretty much a necessity. On thing I have done, and plan to try again is the "high shoulder shot" recommended by Barseness. I accidently shot a buck there 2 yrs ago, and he immediately dropped, kicked a few times, and quickly expired. Shot placement was directly in line with the front leg, and maybe a strong half ways up the body. Did not hit the shoulder bone, and ruined very little meat. I want to try that shot again as a sample size of 1 is pretty small:)


......the occasional hunter wielding a hopelessly inaccurate rifle, living by the fantastical rule that this cartridge can deliver the goods, regardless of shot placement or rifle accuracy. The correct term for this is minute of ego.
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