|
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 546 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 546 Likes: 1 |
When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth?
Last edited by dimecovers5; 08/31/21.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,796
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,796 |
Barnes bullets were cool 10 years ago. Now the cool kids are back to fragmenting bullets again.
Sean
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,252 Likes: 34
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,252 Likes: 34 |
In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,
Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.
But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.
The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,634 Likes: 10
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,634 Likes: 10 |
Bullet placement is still #1
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,793
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 8,793 |
Big chunks of lead at moderate velocity work rather well.
l told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Make your life go here. Here's where the peoples is. Mother Gue, I says, the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world, and by God, I was right. - Del Gue
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,250 Likes: 34
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,250 Likes: 34 |
Dead dogma is best served fried.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,118 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 11,118 Likes: 3 |
Hydrostatic shock is an oxymoron. Hydro means water, (or other liquids) and static means at rest. The phrase literally means the shock of water at rest.
If you want to talk about hydrodynamic shock, at least the terminology makes sense.
Animals mainly die from a central nervous system hit, or from a big enough hole in the right place to let the blood out or scramble gas exchange in the lungs.
I'm sure the shockwave that propagates through animal flesh doesn't do them any good, but I'm very skeptical about it killing anything.
Last edited by denton; 08/31/21.
Be not weary in well doing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,639
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,639 |
When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth? I grew up with the exact same theory....until one day I hit a small buck with a ballistic tip from my .270 and the deer ran off. I finally found it in some bushes and it was hit fairly well. The range was about 25 yards and the deer should have dropped instantly..... I decided that from that day forward, I wanted an exit hole to create a better blood trail to follow. I didn't dismiss the hydrostatic shock theory but was willing to sacrifice some of the bullet's energy to create an exit hole. That was 40 years back and since then have never regretted that decision. The hydrostatic shock theory has come up several times since then and always been dismissed as of little importance or non existent (even with good bullet placement. Today I look for 1. Sufficient accuracy to yield good placement 2. A tough enough bullet to exit 3. cartridge with enough energy capability to force the exit....(most modern rifles are capable of that) 4. sufficient bench time to keep my shooting skills in reasonable shape Bear in mind.....there is no bullet that will always exit.....even the Barnes that I like to shoot will not always exit.....nor will the Nosler Partition.....but your chances are better. It's been said thousands of times.....Placement is the key! .
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,779 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 3,779 Likes: 1 |
I like to drain my animals. They have to stop when they run out of blood. No blood, the brain no workee. The brain no workee, the legs no workee
I go for the pump house
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 546 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 546 Likes: 1 |
In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,
Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.
But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.
The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.
I'm sure most of us have had a common situation where they double lunged a deer and the deer went 75 yards and dropped. but we've also made the same shot and the deer fell in it's tracks instantly. If you don't hit the spine or the brain what causes this lights out effect sometimes?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,250 Likes: 34
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,250 Likes: 34 |
Imagine the complexity of the CNS, respiratory and circulatory systems and explain how two animals shot with similar placement and aspect will have the same reaction.
I shot a deer years ago with a .30-30 and among other things cut the heart completely in half. Spewed blood like a fire hydrant and it was easy to track...for over 200 yards. Uphill.
Different year, same result, boom-flop....with a .44 Mag. No hydro-whatzit involved.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,836 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,836 Likes: 3 |
Someone here stated it very well a couple of years ago: kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff, holes in vital organs kill stuff
Mathew 22: 37-39
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,504 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,504 Likes: 3 |
In my youth, I read Wby's theories and somewhat subscribed but never had the funds to buy his rifles nor ammo.
I pushed his theory to the side as I gained hunting experience but have always wondered about a few kills I've witnessed where an animal was hit high in the neck with smaller high velocity bullets that dropped the critter instantly. Could the hydroshock that close to the brain have caused the critter to blackout and drop?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,792 Likes: 19
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,792 Likes: 19 |
To take it a step further it is cessation of organ function and oxygen flowing to the brain which results in dead animals. Just like dead humans. Damage the system, shut it down, and creatures die.
The way life should be.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,996 Likes: 28
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,996 Likes: 28 |
In the beginning (meaning in the days when Roy Weatherby started out) "hydrostatic shock" was claimed to push blood throughout an animal, like brake fluid being pushed throughout the brake system in a vehicle, which supposedly severely damaged all the organs from the heart to the brain. According to some advocates (including Roy) this meant it didn't matter where you hit an animal, because the sudden blood-pressure rise would kill it immediately,
Roy didn't have much experience shooting game at that point, and later, on his first African safari, found it didn't work nearly as neatly as he expected and claimed. Since then some have claimed that the way a "high velocity rifles bullet" explodes an apple, can of beans or even a gallon jug of water is evidence of hydrostatic shock. And there's no doubt high impact velocity does more damage than lower velocities with the same bullets.
But the hydrostatic shock theory as promoted by early high-velocity advocates is BS, primarily because internal organs of big game (which include the veins and arteries of the circulatory system) are far more flexible than brake lines, and vary far more in diameter. Which means that shooting even a deer in the butt with a super high-velocity bullet has no effect on the brain, or any other major organs.
The major factor in "killing power," however it's defined, is not the mythical hydrostatic shock, but how much damage a bullet does to vital organs, which is why fragmenting bullets often kill game quicker. But sometimes non-fragmenting bullets kill just as quickly, or at least drop them as quickly, especially if the bullets pass close to major nerve systems.
I'm sure most of us have had a common situation where they double lunged a deer and the deer went 75 yards and dropped. but we've also made the same shot and the deer fell in it's tracks instantly. If you don't hit the spine or the brain what causes this lights out effect sometimes? I suspect that some of the so-called “evidence” of HSS, such as ruptured arteries far from the POI are actually caused by bullet or bone fragments that aren’t found in the “post-mortem”. I also think that there are factors involved, invisible to the hunter, that affect how an animal reacts to being shot; such as its emotional state, how full its stomach is, if the heart is between beats or compressing, if it’s inhaling or exhaling, and its stance- how its weight is distributed on its feet when the bullet hits. No way to know most or even any of that, so make a good shot with a good bullet and hope for the best. What I want to know is how to get a deer to run towards my car when shot, instead of invariably the other way.
What fresh Hell is this?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,792 Likes: 19
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,792 Likes: 19 |
Park your vehicle over there first. Easy.
The way life should be.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,996 Likes: 28
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,996 Likes: 28 |
Park your vehicle over there first. Easy. Silly me! Why didn’t I think of that? Thanks.
What fresh Hell is this?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,729 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,729 Likes: 2 |
I just Googled "Hydrostatic shock" and there was some very interesting studies , the first by e. Harvey Newton at Princeton University. There was also reference done during WW2 on it by a Dr. Chamberlain who commanded a very large military hospital , interviewing patients of gunshot wounds.He steered away from the " shock" aspect because it aluded to some sort of pressure wave, but did acknowledge that the nervous system could be disrupted and that it was a real thing. There are a few others who disputed his findings as well. Quite interesting . Personally speaking, I strive for big holes properly placed in the lungs. :>) Cat
Last edited by catnthehat; 09/01/21.
scopes are cool, but slings 'n' irons RULE!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 746
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 746 |
It's pretty simple.....you need to break bone and get to the main vitals. I have shot heavy for calibre lead and copper all with the same positive effect. I am a a Whitetail and Black Bear hunter and break the shoulder(s) on both.
RAVENS & WOLVES
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,191 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 1,191 Likes: 1 |
When I was a youth reading and rereading every gun and hunting related magazine I could get my hands on I believed the way to kill a deer was to put a fast enough bullet into a deer that would expand and dump all it's energy without exiting ideally so there was maximum energy transfer. Now I read all this about how good Barnes bullets are and I wonder if all that was bunk. I've killed deer that died like they had been hit by lightening with an expanding bullet and I thought that might be why. On the other hand I've hit and killed others that acted like they didn't even feel the shot. Is hydrostatic shock real or a myth? I grew up with the exact same theory....until one day I hit a small buck with a ballistic tip from my .270 and the deer ran off. I finally found it in some bushes and it was hit fairly well. The range was about 25 yards and the deer should have dropped instantly..... I decided that from that day forward, I wanted an exit hole to create a better blood trail to follow. I didn't dismiss the hydrostatic shock theory but was willing to sacrifice some of the bullet's energy to create an exit hole. That was 40 years back and since then have never regretted that decision. The hydrostatic shock theory has come up several times since then and always been dismissed as of little importance or non existent (even with good bullet placement. Today I look for 1. Sufficient accuracy to yield good placement 2. A tough enough bullet to exit 3. cartridge with enough energy capability to force the exit....(most modern rifles are capable of that) 4. sufficient bench time to keep my shooting skills in reasonable shape Bear in mind.....there is no bullet that will always exit.....even the Barnes that I like to shoot will not always exit.....nor will the Nosler Partition.....but your chances are better. It's been said thousands of times.....Placement is the key! . Well said, that is my theory as well. I am willing to "waste some energy" in order to get an exit, thereby making tracking much easier. Where I hunt, a blood trail is pretty much a necessity. On thing I have done, and plan to try again is the "high shoulder shot" recommended by Barseness. I accidently shot a buck there 2 yrs ago, and he immediately dropped, kicked a few times, and quickly expired. Shot placement was directly in line with the front leg, and maybe a strong half ways up the body. Did not hit the shoulder bone, and ruined very little meat. I want to try that shot again as a sample size of 1 is pretty small:)
......the occasional hunter wielding a hopelessly inaccurate rifle, living by the fantastical rule that this cartridge can deliver the goods, regardless of shot placement or rifle accuracy. The correct term for this is minute of ego.
|
|
|
|
324 members (10gaugemag, 17CalFan, 1Longbow, 1OntarioJim, 10ring1, 260madman, 46 invisible),
3,153
guests, and
1,088
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,641
Posts18,533,608
Members74,041
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|