I'm not sure if I qualify as a fundamnetalist,but I can tell you that I fall short everyday. I do like to share my faith with people who are interested,but do not want to arrogantly impose my beliefs on anybody.
I just consider myself to be a follower of christ who belongs to a local church
Confused about religion during a time of revival in the state of New York where he lived in 1820, 14-year-old Joseph read a passage in the New Testament and went to the woods to pray. Joseph records that God and Jesus Christ appeared to him. "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head," he wrote, "above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me." Within that light, he saw two personages — one of whom spoke Joseph's name, pointed to the other, and said, "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" Church members refer to this experience as the "First Vision." It forever changed Joseph Smith and has become a central tenet of Latter-day Saint belief. It began the work of restoring the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.
No trick, obviously both Paul and Smith came 'after' Jesus, with similar claims. Both wrote powerful words that inspired many people. I really liked Billy Graham growing up, was able to see him live a couple times in my teens, he definitely was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I don't have to believe any of their words are scripture to live in Christ.
I accept that Christ has a plan and path for every man as he said.
I accept that my path isn't the only road and neither is someone else's.
I don't have to conform to worldly words to live spiritually.
I will NEVER question another's personal salvation as Christ instructed.
But I will question those that, even thinly veiled, do. Where do you get the authority?
Someone here asked how many God's there were. Well God's infinite. Narrow minded people think they can understand infinite, it just goes forever... It does more than that, if you could somehow put a pin in a starting point, not only would it go forward, but forward in an infinite direction, it also would go backwards in an infinite direction, it would expand infinitely and collapse infinitely. There is an infinite amount of points all doing the same thing. Time goes forward and backward infinitely... It's unexplainable in finite words.
God isn't just 1, a finite number... he's infinite.
Go ahead and contain God in a small book of finite words, it's all good. But don't judge other's who see an infinite God.
Kent
Good response…. But…. But pls do not think that I personally believe God is “contained in a small book of finite words.”
God indeed must be worshiped in spirit and in truth. Only a few words, but they are the words of God. They stand.
I also believe that God is NOT the God described by the “all things to all people” folks. What one believes does indeed matter… it is of great importance.
Now, to a sticky point….. does one have to understand God with all the theological implications that may accompany a saving faith? I did not when I became a follower of Jesus.
Seems to me that God can have a …. or cause…. a life changing experience with a small child…. The child … or even an adult with limited theological knowledge can….through the call of the Father, the witness of the Holy Spirit and the power of the saving sacrifical blood if the Son of God….. enter into a new vibrant relationship with God Himself.
Also, as ….who was it? …..Old Hat? Like him…..Whether or not some individual has a saving faith in Jesus” is not my call.”
Having said this … I get a bit concerned when I read someone defending a “denomination” ….. be it Catholicism, Baptist, Mormon, Church of Christ…whatever…. It is not the denomination that saves…. It is not a strong held belief in some theological system that saves….. it is Jehovah God….. it is the one and only Son, Jesus enables a sinful man to stand righteous before God.
This Paul, Christ, bible is an old argument here on the fire over the last 10 years, I kind of take a different approach than the last 5 times to get people to think. I'm not busting someone faith, just maybe expand it to accept another's... I do admit I enjoy sarcasm and pointing out ironic'ism.
As brief a history of my faith as possible.
I knew of the Holy Spirit with my first memories, though I didn't understand obviously... 3 years old? That or I had an imaginable friend like Harvey the pink rabbit. I just knew of this presence, a really good presence.
I was baptized at 12, mom said I just got up and walked forward one sunday morning when the call was made, it surprised her. What I remember was I wasn't changed or born again. I realized I was born with. Later I came to believe we are all born with and what is claimed to be 'born again' is finally awareness, it's a good thing whenever it happens regardless of baptism by water.
I always worked my brother and I, chopping weeds in irrigation ditches, raising calves, growing corn to sell on the corner, chores. When I was 11 I started delivering papers, I did it till I was almost 16 when I got a real job at Tastee freeze. It was 2 miles bike ride from the country to the subdivision and paper route. The crux of this is I thought a lot about God and who he was, what he was in my life on those miles. Not a normal child's thoughts maybe.
At 14 the church decided I was to be groomed for the ministry. The combined church leaders decided to create a seminary class at my school, they had to ask the Mormons to use their building just off school grounds, the Mormons and school agreed. The year before on my own I had started reading the bible straight through. During that first year I had finished the bible and I never fully accepted what they taught what the bible said vs what I read it said... But the real reason for mentioning this is the teachers were the DRs of the various churches, and more than once when we were in the Mormon's building they allowed us to use, those DRs would make fun of and denounce the Mormon and things they had on the walls. They were so sure they knew the path to God and the Mormons weren't saved... didn't sit right with me.
I was taught to use chapter and verse and wield them as shield and sword against all others, including Mormons and even Catholics. Many of my cousins are Mormons and we had some terrible theological battles, each side thinking they won.
Next few years continued on, I was preaching from the pulpit at 16 when a substitute was needed, prepared sermons... the prodigy of the church. I was shown the working of the church behind the scenes, the personalities and the difficulties in balance, not of spirit but of men.
I read the bible again at 18, reading the new testament again I could see Christ's life example in the Gospels and the contrast of man in the rest. I could clearly see the church's direction and what it was based on. Seeing new christians put their faith in the church and lose their faith because of the church when the minister gets caught with the choir lady... and yes that really happened.
I couldn't accept to be a suit and tie at the pulpit, preaching beyond the simple truth Christ brought.
Ok…. Pls bear with me …..Let me ask a clarifying question in a “made up” scenario….
Here is the scenario…. You have died and you are standing at Heaven’s Gate talking with Peter…he reads from his “book of your life”….. he gets a concerned look on his face and he asks you “Why should we let you into Heaven?”
How do you respond?
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
To some it’s all about believing correctly. The church went to war with itself over beliefs. They argued over words, and they argued over peripheral things. During the reformation tens of thousands of people died as Christian groups went to war with each other. People were arrested and strangled and burned over the issue of what is the right thing to believe. The core beliefs of Christianity are really quite simple. There will always be some haziness around the periphery, but there is extraordinary clarity around the core.
When Peter said “you’re the Christ, the son of the living God”, Jesus said “you’re exactly right, and I’m gonna build a brand new movement around this one simple idea, my identity, who I claim to be”, that He would later punctuate with His resurrection. And that is a core belief. Perhaps the only thing we have in common in terms of belief with other Jesus followers throughout the world is that core belief. And toward the end of His ministry He gave us a new commandment, not a list, just one...”you are to love one another the way that I have loved you.” This was so core, so central, that He said this, “by this kind of unique love everyone will know that you are my followers if you love one another.” He said this is how His followers would be recognized. This is at the very center of the center of the center of what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
Long before there was ‘the Bible’, long before there were chapters and verses, there was a version of the faith that got people’s attention because of how it’s followers behaved and not simply because of what they believed. A small group of em’ in the butthole of the Roman Empire...the leader of whom had been rejected by His own people and executed...would over time be embraced by the same empire that tried to stamp em’ out.
They were squashed between the Jewish Temple and the Roman Empire, and Jesus’ ekklesia should have been entombed alongside its founder. But nope...nowadays Christians from around the world visit the ruins of the Forum in Rome...and across the Mediterranean tourists are takin’ pictures of the ruins of the Temple in Jerusalem.
How’d ‘that’ happen...? What’d those early 1st-century followers of Jesus know that we don’t...?
Ain’t seein’ much of that kinda compelling or attractive faith overall from the Church...or those in it...anymore. Not nowadays. Not by a long shot.
The publican said it best ''God, be merciful to me a sinner''. That is what I'm asking. Like the prodigal son "I am not worthy"
Here's a blessing
John 3:16... Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Ok…. Pls bear with me …..Let me ask a clarifying question in a “made up” scenario….
Here is the scenario…. You have died and you are standing at Heaven’s Gate talking with Peter…he reads from his “book of your life”….. he gets a concerned look on his face and he asks you “Why should we let you into Heaven?”
How do you respond?[/quote}
If I'm actually standing at the gate.
1st. Peters' not the gate keeper.
2nd. It's not 'his' book of life
3rd. It's not his place to be concerned.
4th. Because JESUS said I could.
"...A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box..." Frederick Douglass, 1867
Let me ask a clarifying question in a “made up” scenario…. Here is the scenario…. You have died and you are standing at Heaven’s Gate talking with Peter…he reads from his “book of your life”….. he gets a concerned look on his face and he asks you “Why should we let you into Heaven?” How do you respond?
There is a contradiction between universal salvation - Jesus died for the sins of mankind, therefore sin has been wiped away and all are saved - and predestination, as the verse tells us, "vessels' fitted for destruction."
"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" Roman 9:21
Ok…. Pls bear with me …..Let me ask a clarifying question in a “made up” scenario….
Here is the scenario…. You have died and you are standing at Heaven’s Gate talking with Peter…he reads from his “book of your life”….. he gets a concerned look on his face and he asks you “Why should we let you into Heaven?”
How do you respond?
Well, there's nothing in this life that I can do to deserve it. I exist in this world the best I can and treat others the best I can. There's no salvation to be won in this world. People struggle with the concept we have to do something here above our ability.
Peter is just another man, the good news is he has a responsibility given to him. I can't be saved by this life but I can be tempered for whatever responsibility God has in store for me. I believe these responsibilities are harder than anything we can experience here... So much for laying at God's feet in bliss eating grapes and shaded by palm leaves.
You won't read yourself to salvation, or study, or preach. Christ will come to us all.
He brought salvation through death and resurrection, we can say we believe as hard as we want, or say we don't believe as hard as we want. But the bright light will come to us all, every man, we will hear and we will see... a death brought salvation and our death salvation revealed.
Jesus didn't write any word, his word is to be heard, he is the word, he waits for me and us all at death, we will be born again in the light of the spirit.
John 5:24-26
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Ok…. Pls bear with me …..Let me ask a clarifying question in a “made up” scenario….
Here is the scenario…. You have died and you are standing at Heaven’s Gate talking with Peter…he reads from his “book of your life”….. he gets a concerned look on his face and he asks you “Why should we let you into Heaven?”
How do you respond?
Not Kent, but:
St. P: Fub, let's see what we got.
Fub: K
St P.: Well, there's some good stuff and some bad stuff, I dunno......
Fub: I think I made the cut.
St. P.: What makes you think you've done enough?
Fub: Well, there was that time I rescued that girl from bein molested by a motorcycle gang.
St. P. (flipping through pages): What?
Fub: Yeah, I stopped em from molestin her. Was drivin by, saw her on the sidea the road with those losers. So, I gott outta my car, grabbed the tire iron, walked up ta the biggest @sshole biker there, whacked him upside the head with the tire iron, turned to the others, and said: Who's next?
St. P. (flippin through pages): I don't see anything like that, and you *know* I have the best information. Don't lie to me. When did this happen?
Originally Posted by EthanEdwards Originally Posted by IZH27 Originally Posted by lvmiker Ok I think I get it. All who fail to adopt a certain belief system will go to the fiery furnace. That is exactly what those smelly guys in turbans believe.
Does anyone believe in a kind god that embraces all who are good?
mike r
That's kinda what I was aiming for in one of the points in the OP. Fundamentalism really isn't a good thing. Look at Afghanistan right now.
I'm not really sure how to respond to the idea of a belief system. I've kinda come to the conclusion that all religions in the world are about belief systems. Christianity stands out as being different. Christ kept it pretty simple when he said that all who believe have eternal life. Maybe all men are fundamentalists at heart because it's hard to find anybody who will let Christ's words stand as they are. Men want to add a bunch of do's and don't's to the proposition and make it a system of belief rather than something that is given to them In a quick perusal of your posts, it seemed to me from the get-go you were trying, as the MSM does, to use the term "fundamentalism" to lump conservative Christians in with fundamentalist sects of Muslims and other groups that generally are terroristic. Fundamentalist Christians vary wildly from group to group but are, in general, simply conservative believers in Christ and the Bible. Christianity is greatly different from any other religion. As Rockchuck is trying to point out, at its core is the belief that there is nothing an individual can do to save himself. Salvation only comes through belief/faith in Jesus Christ and that faith is a gift from God. It comes from without, not from within. That is the huge difference between Christianity of any stripe and all other religions. Buzz words/terms like "fundamentalist" and "evangelical" usually come from sources that wish to put Christians in categories with other religions and liken them to them. They cannot be as Christianity is truly different.
A kind God is what we have. One Who holds everything together by strict adherence to the law and Who found a way to salvage His imperfect creation even while adhering to the last letter of that law. Praise God (Jesus) for ever and ever. Amen.
That was never the intent of a the post. You have read into my posts something that isn’t there.
Unfortunately both the word fundamentalist and evangelical were not words assigned to Christians but schools of thought developed by Christians. These schools of thought “further defined” the faith. No matter the endeavor be it religious or secular the original begins to change when isms and ists are added.
Originally Posted by IZH27
I’ll stand by my statement that Christian Fundamentalism does not preach the Gospel but rather a gospel. That has to do with a misuse of the law and confusing the law as a means of Grace after salvation. Considering the American churches roots in the influence of Revivalism and Wesleyanism it isn’t hard to understand how we arrived at a broad embrace of fundamentalism.
Fundamentalist Christianity in America is much much more than a nod at “just following the Bible”. When it is taken to it’s full logical end it results in a liberal or conservative legalism. It produces practitioners who are judgmental, condemning and filled with self righteousness. We witness that regularly in posts made on the fire.
You just proved my point. I know of no sect that calls itself "Fundamentalist". There may be one, but I don't know of it. Lots of churches identify with fundamental Christian beliefs. It's a far cry from a Fundamentalist as far as Islam is concerned. AFAIK the term could be applied to either a faith-based Church or a works based one.
I apologize for taking so long to respond. With the pre holiday schedule and 4 days off the week was hectic.
There are definitely similarities between fundamentalism and legalism. My understanding of Legalism is that it takes the Law/Ten Commandments and develops those commands into a litmus test to determine the holiness or righteousness of a member of the church. They claim salvation through faith in the work of Christ but beat their members to death by using the Law as a measure and means of maintaining their status before God.
Fundamentalism does the same thing only Law is replaced or combined with law small L. It has developed into a high moralism but is legalistic all the same. Inclusions and exclusions abound and are used to control and manipulate the members just as in traditional Legalism.
This is the extent of my comparison between these movements and Islam. Rules and regulations are used as a means of manipulation and control.
While there are a handful of denominations which openly identify as Fundamental/Fundamentalist I don't see it as a necessary title to adopt in order to be practicing Fundamentalist Christianity. It's been a while since I dived deep into the nuances of Fundamentalism and it's influence on the American. The influences exist in nearly all denominations. It can be argued that those influences have led to the liberalism that is now so rampant.
I'd say that we both know Democrats who have no idea that they have slowly been swayed to adopt and champion progressive liberal ideology. Even though they don't self identify as progressives they have become progressive. To me that analogy holds with the fundamentalist influence on the American church.
Jesus told the disciples who he sent out to teach that if a town wouldn't listen, shake the dust from their feet as they left. This passage was almost written for Christians posting on the Fire.
Mat 10:14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. 16 Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
What do you do when the false prophets follow you from thread to thread or town to town attempting to prevent others from turning to faith in Christ? THAT is the reality of what's going on. And then there are those like Elymas...
Paul dealt with them all the time. The false teachers he wrote about so often were either Jews or agnostics who were lead by Satan to fight against Paul and others who were spreading the word.
He sure did. They even followed him from town to town. He kept on Preaching the gospel as you and a few of our brothers here have already expressed so clearly. Since the Elymas started this thread, I noticed that it doesn't get the typical attacks as it normally does. Maybe the devil's are waiting to see how they can misdirect and demonize the Bible believers first?
I'm curious. How do you know my status before God? I was reading in Proverbs this morning. I read a passage there noting that God looks on the heart, determines the status of a man by looking at his heart. Do you claim that ability? or are you simply practicing condemnation of a human being of which you know little to nothing?
BTW. A correction to your assessment of me as the originator of the thread. Barabbas would be a much better comparison.
People want a small God, a God they can contain in a single book, a God in the image of words they write, a God in their image.
Kent
I'd say that's pretty much the sum of things. Men want a God that they can control. I believe that this was the emphasis behind Calvin's comment that the heart is a perpetual factory of idols.
It seems to me that there is a point of tension in all truths of Scripture. God is transcendent yet condescending. In His condescension we have very limited knowledge of Him. I think that because of this we want to define Him and wring out everything so that it conforms to a framework that we can comprehend. It's seem a whole lot easier to try to learn to let there be a tension between what we know and the vast amount that we don't know.
Yep. So is John 1:14, which was also referenced. “Word” as it’s used by Apostle John in his Gospel in the very first verse is a translation of the Greek λόγος (logos), and is widely interpreted by translators and Bible scholars as referring to Jesus, as indicated by other verses later in the same chapter (verses 14-17).
It’s: In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.
It’s not: In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.
If you are agreeing with Jim and I on those verses, then I think we have a consensus. The translation is "word" for a reason. Why Jesus is called the "word" is up for debate, but I want to go on the record as believing that the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are the Trinity, just in case there's any confusion.
I agree with you HC regarding the Trinity. It is a bed rock Scriptural concept which if denied is a sure indicator of heresy. I fellowship with many questions who have differing interpretations about some verses in the Bile. I have no problem with this. I personally will never fellowship with someone who denies the Trinity.
If I remember correctly, that was one of the Fundamentals written about by Southern Baptist J. Frank Norris. That term was used a hundred years ago to describe the doctrines that were well established throughout Scripture. You just mentioned a couple more like , inspiration of the written Word, the person of Christ, redemption through faith in Him alone. These are taken for granted by most of us who read and believe the Bible. At the time of Norris' pastorate, he disputed with the liberal pastors of the SBC over issues like evolution and creation. Even in a large Southern Baptist Bible college of his day, they were teaching darwinian evolution as fact, among other heresies. He and others wanted the denomination to go back and re-establish the fundamental basic distinctives that evangelical conservative, Bible believing christianity was based upon. From what I can tell, in the 1980s there was a demonization of the term as the islamic religions were being labeled "Fundamentalists". It took 5 seconds for the liberal pastors, media and govmt to use this to intentionally demonize christianity with this term. Look at who their enemies are today? Peaceful, conservative christians who stand in their devil's way to world tyranny. If they had their way, the gospel would be silenced and Jesus'name would be but a curse word. Bible literalist who believed as we, who make up the majority of christianity in north amerIca for the past many decades, were in fact be refered to as fundamentalists by liberals like Izh who started this thread. Rather than acknowledge the fact of what the term really meant for the past century, they redefined it to turn the ignorant public against true christians. Notice how he, IZH, demonizes us with the term and equates those who believe in the fundamentals of the faith with the Islamic radicals who are known to murder christians like us throughout the middle east. He established a false definition (lied) which suits his agenda to undermine the clear teachings of Scripture on this message board. He, along with beaver, NVhunter biden, lvmike reprobate, rene' 50, Jim the Conman etc. have been trying their hardest to attack doctrines essential to Christ's free gift of salvation since I first proclaimed it. They probably did this with others who cared enough to share this long before I joined too. I'm explaining this to you since you have spiritual eye's to see and display the spiritual courage to not worry what those demonic trolls think about you. If they want to attack me in order to silence the message embedded in my signature, so be it. I'll just redouble my efforts. There's doors to knock on and people everywhere that need to be saved.
Happy Camper
Who has attacked you? Please don't make the thread about you.
If you haven’t noticed HC try’s to make every thread about him. His delusion that everyone here is attacking him is comical at best. Most of us have figured out he’s nothing but a Charlatan and a BS artist.
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