Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 303 Savage cast puzzlement

Afternoon all, very long time lurker that finally just pulled the trigger on joining because of a 1899 issue that has just been tickling my brain. I've seen a whole lot more 1899/99 knowledge here than I have, so I figure someone will have an answer. Also was unsure if I should post this in reloading or the Savage section, but I put it here because I think it is more a rifle issue than a reloading issue.

Anyway, sorry for starting off long-winded, but the entire thing probably will be as well 😂 The rifle of issue is an 1899A short rifle, S/N 1024xx, which should put it around 1909/1910. It is in pretty decent shape, but by no mean's a collector piece. I've got a Lyman peep on it, and with both jackets and monometals, it has proven to be frustratingly finicky to work up loads for, but also very accurate once dialed in. I have a handful of loads with both jacketed bullets and monos I can cloverleaf at 50, and keep inside 1.5" @100 if my eyes behave and I do my part behind the trigger.

The issue is cast bullets... this thing just has ZERO accuracy with cast bullets of any sort that I've run down the barrel. I'm not talking mediocre, or even bad... it's can't keep 5 shots on paper, keyholing at 25 yards, woefully hopeless type accuracy. The bore is good and measures right at .308 and I've tried bullets from .309 clear up to .312 in assorted styles and weights from 115-193 grains over an assortment of powders with the same train wreck results every single time.

I've been loading for about 20 year now, including a lot of cast, and have never come across something that is so good with jackets, but so terrible with cast. My only thought is maybe the chamber? The rifle does have a wonky chamber... headspace is good, and from the head up to the shoulder is to spec, but from the shoulder forward it is the most grossly oversized thing I have ever seen. Fired casings have most of the shoulder blown out, and I can stick an 8mm bullet in them.

Any thoughts from 99 experts/afficianados or hardcore cast loaders? It isn't a huge deal since I have several good shooting loads for it, but it is just bugging me not knowing what is actually going on..

Thanks,

Zach

Maybe there's some copper fouling in the bore? My 458 doesn't like copper fouling for lead and will send a couple sideways but still puts them close to the group.

The rifle got an extensive scrubbing when I first bought it, and it gets a good cleaning anytime I shoot it. There's not even a group for the keyholes to be close to. Just random holes all over the paper (and some missing the paper entirely), with more of them than not keyholing.

I think your description of the grossly oversize neck contains your answer. The throat may well be way oversize also. Have you measured your throat diameter? If the cast bullet is grossly under throat diameter then a ton of hot gasses will cut past it and accuracy will go to hell, and likely cause leading as well. That wildly oversize neck surely contributes to the situation also.

Dunno what to tell you to do about it. Guns that behaved like that for me got a trip to the train station.

That's why I preach about throat diameter being all important with cast bullets, and to ignore groove and bore diameters.

Copper fouling will impede best accuracy but not likely to promote wild inaccuracy. At least that's been the case for me.

Yeah, the throat is large, too, and I did get some lead fouling, especially with Unique.

Thanks. I knew one of you guys would know what was going on. I'd just never run into a situation like that before with anything.

I'm definitely going to hang onto it. I've had it going on a couple years now. My pet loads for it are 110 spitzers, so it's an absolute dream to shoot, and I got it for a relative song. Not being able to shoot cast isn't a biggie for me, it was just driving me nuts wondering why the cast shot so poorly while jackets and monos will drive tacks.

I had that problem when I tried plain base cast in one of mine. Went to a gas-checked and problem solved

Thanks, I might try some. A couple of the bullets are made for gas checks, but I had always just run them naked in 30-30 without issues, so I'd never gotten any checks to put on them.

Ok, you should've mentioned you were doing that trick too. Gas check bullets without gas checks can be employed at very low velocity, usually. I'm talking less than 1300-1400 fps muzzle velocity. Above that speed, even at .30-30 velocity, gas checks are needed.

I wasn't pushing any of them very fast. They're 15-16 brinnell hardness, and the ones that did make it over the chrono were doing between 950-1400. I've used a couple of them quite a bit in 30-30 around 1200fps in the past as plinkers. A couple others aren't gas check molds that I've pushed up around 1500 out of other rifles.

I was just throwing bologna at the wall to see if any of it would stick with the 303, and most of it missed the wall 😏

I haven't messed with cast bullets in my other 99s, so I just didn't really know if this was a common issue or not.

Well, don't give up. My experience with cast in Savage lever guns was/is always satisfying.

Before you go any farther, do a chamber cast to include the throat and first inch of the bore. That way you definitely will know the dimensional requirements for your bullets. Spitballing guesses is not the way to resolve cast bullet issues. Stop and go back to the beginning- a chamber cast is your friend.

I'm probably just going to stick to jackets and monos in this one and save myself headaches. I already have other rifles (not 99s) I exclusively shoot cast out of.

I think if I do an exclusive 1899 cast shooter, it will probably be finding one up in 25-35, but that will be down the road a bit. I already tied up all my project money for the foreseeable future in a rebarrel/rechamber of one of my EGs.I should be getting that back in December or January.

Gnoahhh has it right, check the throat size. A common reason causing cast bullets to tumble is undersize bullets. If you find your throat needs a bigger bullet than you can get from your molds, all is not lost. Powder coating might fatten them up enough to stop the tumbling and give you some accuracy. Even though I much prefer conventional lubes, I'd sure give powder coat a try in this situation. Since you didn't say what lube you used, I'm assuming you conventionally lube your bullets. If you already powder coat, just disregard this post.

They are all commercially purchased, so I don't know what the lube is. I don't really mess around with casting any of my own anymore.

The only rifle I ever home cast for was a 25-20 and I got rid of that ages ago. I do still have the mold and sizer, though, just in case I ever get another 25 cal down the road.

PS - throat is .315ish. Sort of amazing anything hits the bore square.

Like I said, I'm just sticking to jackets and monos in this one, it shoots them very well, and I'm not into huge headaches for the sake of saving myself a nickel a bullet.

100yd group with 110gr Nosler ETips over IMR4320


50yd group with 110gr Sierra Varminters over A4064

.315? Holy mackeral! Yeah, I too would stick with what works. Actually I'm kind of surprised .308 jacketed stuff works that nicely but you can't beat those results.

I am honestly a bit surprised myself. I knew it was oversize, but not that much. Explains why my velocities are really low, though. The first bit of the rifling was .309 too, probably from all those bullets slamming them cockeyed.

It is super finicky, even with jackets. .1-.2gr on a load is the difference between groups like that and groups like baseballs. It also likes the bullets seated really long, which also makes sense now. Those ETips are a coal of 2.597", and 2.601 is the absolute max I can get through the mag.

Took a lot of fiddling around to get it to shoot lighter bullets, but they're a blast to plink with.