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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,725 Likes: 6
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,725 Likes: 6 |
I didn't say I wouldn't seek cover first before defending myself. Nor did I say I was looking for an "opportunity" to shoot someone. What I did say was that if someone were shooting at me from longer distances than the 7 yards you mentioned that I would recognize that as an attack and be prepared to deal with it.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,583 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,583 Likes: 2 |
IMO they would be more valuable to police officers who may need to shoot out to 50 yards or even more. I don't see the typical civilian having the need to shoot that far and still be able to consider it self defense. Not that it couldn't happen, but I expect it would be quite rare. Not likely to happen but IF a bad guy was shooting at you from 50 yards, wouldn't you shoot back? And wouldn't that be considered self defense all things equal? Parking lots, malls, Walmart, churches, schools, about anywhere in rural areas around farms, campsites, boat ramps and the like has 50+ yard possibilities. I see and hear of guys that never practice with their defensive handgun past 7-10 yards and wonder what they are thinking. Hell even my snubby S&W 642 rings steel at 50 yards and further about every range trip. Your 642 may ring steel at 50 yeards, but not too many can do that. Personally if someone was even pointing a gun at me from 50 yards I would seek cover. Usually there are a fair number of vehicles in parking lots. I'm pretty sure I could hit someone from 50 yards, but unless a bullet went zinging by me, it's hard to know if it's me they are shooting at or someone I haven't seen. I'm not looking for an opportunity to shoot someone. I would vastly prefer avoiding that situation. . True…. At 50yards your claim of self defense is suspicious in a lot of cases.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580 |
I never saw anyone excel at anything in life by striving to be good at "average."
You don't get to pick the time, place, number of assailants, or distance.
But, I guess training is harder than buying "stuff"
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
The main advantage of a dot sight is they are faster than iron sights. That has been proven 💯% by competitors
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
If someone shoot at you or points a firearm at you you are in danger of great bodily harm or death. Distance has zero to do with it.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,965 Likes: 54
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,965 Likes: 54 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot?
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? Only if you allow there to be. Rapid engagement should be your only thought
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I'm at the point that a new dot is just budgeted into the cost of a new carry gun. I don't see any reason to not have one. With the caveat that on a carry gun it HAS to be a quality dot. Not a justasgoodas dot or a dot "to try it out and see how I like it".
As far as the distances people are mentioning, for the most part they're wrong. With a dot I can shoot KDF's hat qual in about 15 seconds (10 shots, 25 yards, 90 or better on a B8). At 15 yards it's much faster. For the people who are just going to "run away" from a threat at or beyond 15 yards....Where are you going to run? If I'm hitting a 6" circle every 1-1.5 seconds at that distance, where do you think you'll be able to go? The answer is somewhere with a bullet in you. And I'm not particularly fast or accurate.
And 15 yards is not unreasonable. In my home I can see exterior doors from 40' in four places. That's not uncommon if you go measure homes built in the last 10 years.
I've found that a dot isn't any slower up close. At 15-25 yards I can make the same shots that I can with irons in about half the time. And beyond that a dot basically doubles the distance I can make a particular shot. What I can do at 25 with irons I can do at 50 with a dot.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? Only if you allow there to be. Rapid engagement should be your only thought I've had dots go down on my in a match twice. And I did experience a pause because I was trying to find a dot that didn't exist. And then I shot the rest of the stage with no dot and no irons, and no penalties. With practice you can just look through the glass and shoot where the dot should be and be surprisingly accurate. In fact, in our MRDS class we have a drill with the optic completely occluded (tape over the front lens and the dot turned off). With no sights and no window I can shoot very aggressively with A Zone hits to 7 yards and my A Zone hits at 10 yards are about 80%.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,796 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,796 Likes: 4 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? I haven't had the misfortune to run into that yet (I'm pretty OCD about changing batteries), but my 'gut' answer is 'no'. If the dot is absent, I still have the traditional sight picture that's been there for decades. I need to qual with my off-duty carry (has an optic) this week. I'll have the instructor set up that scenario to see if I phuque up or am.noticeably slower
Last edited by NH K9; 10/02/21.
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 341
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 341 |
Red dots are here to stay and will only become more prevalent. That being said, it is a different animal from irons. If you’ve been at it a while,it’s gonna take work to change your focal plane and clean up your presentation. If you’re not willing to put in the work, they are not for you. If you are, the benefits are worth the effort.
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,796 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 10,796 Likes: 4 |
I'm at the point that a new dot is just budgeted into the cost of a new carry gun. I don't see any reason to not have one. With the caveat that on a carry gun it HAS to be a quality dot. Not a justasgoodas dot or a dot "to try it out and see how I like it".
Agreed. The only 'area' I'm still holding out on is my 'beating around the woods' gun that gets thrown in the bed of my Gator when I'm working around my place or in my kit bag (then hung up on a limb, thrown in the truck, etc) when I'm off at the family property logging, wandering, etc. It's also my bear hunting handgun (just in case, after the 45-70 has done its work) That's just a 'basic bitch' Sig 320 (.45 acp) that replaced a G21 (that's in the same role for my son now).
�Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.�
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? Same as a malfunction. Training > stuff
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,987 Likes: 7 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? Same as a malfunction. Training > stuff Yep
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,965 Likes: 54
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,965 Likes: 54 |
Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct. You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.
George Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot? Same as a malfunction. Training > stuff By a Glock and eliminate that possibility, LOL.
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,408 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 9,408 Likes: 2 |
Rationalizing not having to take a long shot is assuming you can predict the nature of the fight. If there is an opportunity to stop an active shooter from killing folks and you are not up to the task that is on you. It takes hard work to become competent and few are willing to make the effort.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that. Craig Douglas ECQC
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
Rationalizing not having to take a long shot is assuming you can predict the nature of the fight. If there is an opportunity to stop an active shooter from killing folks and you are not up to the task that is on you. It takes hard work to become competent and few are willing to make the effort.
mike r Honestly, I’d wager that most shooters probably can’t take advantage of the increased accuracy potential anyway. People who don’t see a gunman at 15 yards as a threat probably feels that way because he can’t hit at 15 himself. Aiming with 3.25MOA precision doesn’t help with a 50MOA trigger press
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,040
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,040 |
I don’t have one at the moment but I’m sure that I will transition to one in the future.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,218 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,218 Likes: 1 |
I do not see a problem in trying one out. Alibaba probably has good quality units for $60+/-10. You will save a great deal bypassing US companies that market those products here. The only disadvantage I see is use of batteries in them. I will not use one because I do not have a handgun set up for mounting one and at defensible distances with a handgun I do not need one. Defensible means distance short enough to be able to claim self-defense scenario.
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,580 |
I do not see a problem in trying one out. Alibaba probably has good quality units for $60+/-10. You will save a great deal bypassing US companies that market those products here. The only disadvantage I see is use of batteries in them. Every time I think you couldn't be dumber you prove me wrong.
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